How good are the unsullied?

[Scion9]

I think people misunderstand how medieval cavalry fought and why it was ultimately balistic technology and not a reinventing of the Roman Legion that brought the age of heavy cavalry to an end. The Imperial Roman Legion was primarily an infantry army, which was susceptible to having its flanks turned by more mobile forces.

Medieval Cavalry wouldn't have to charge a Roman shield wall. They would ride around it and harry it from whichever way it wasn't facing. Very rarely did heavy cavalry mass into whole armies to be mowed down either.

The Roman artillery was effective in fighting massed infantry like the Romans were accustomed to fighting, but the smaller units of horse were too mobile to simply lob ballistae missiles at. The units were relatively small and not just standing still or marching forward in a line. It is easy afterall to see where the missile is going to go by which way the thing is pointing, and then simply moving aside, since you are unhindered by having to be shoulder to shoulder in a strict formation.

For examples of effective massed infantry in the medieval period you'd want to look at the Swiss, whose terrain wasn't suited to supporting a lot of horses. Their military was always more professional than the warrior traditions of most of the rest of the continent and their tactics were obviously based off of Hellene infantry. The thing they didn't do though was mass in rank after rank of troops with giant shields and short swords like the Romans did because it would have been terribly ineffective against cavalry.

The deployed in smaller units that could about face quickly to better avoid flanking by cavalry and similarly used pikes to actually be able to strike at their more equine reliant neighbors.

[Nine of Spades]

I think people misunderstand how medieval cavalry fought and why it was ultimately balistic technology and not a reinventing of the Roman Legion that brought the age of heavy cavalry to an end. The Imperial Roman Legion was primarily an infantry army, which was susceptible to having its flanks turned by more mobile forces.

Medieval Cavalry wouldn't have to charge a Roman shield wall. They would ride around it and harry it from whichever way it wasn't facing. Very rarely did heavy cavalry mass into whole armies to be mowed down either.

The Roman artillery was effective in fighting massed infantry like the Romans were accustomed to fighting, but the smaller units of horse were too mobile to simply lob ballistae missiles at. The units were relatively small and not just standing still or marching forward in a line. It is easy afterall to see where the missile is going to go by which way the thing is pointing, and then simply moving aside, since you are unhindered by having to be shoulder to shoulder in a strict formation.

For examples of effective massed infantry in the medieval period you'd want to look at the Swiss, whose terrain wasn't suited to supporting a lot of horses. Their military was always more professional than the warrior traditions of most of the rest of the continent and their tactics were obviously based off of Hellene infantry. The thing they didn't do though was mass in rank after rank of troops with giant shields and short swords like the Romans did because it would have been terribly ineffective against cavalry.

The deployed in smaller units that could about face quickly to better avoid flanking by cavalry and similarly used pikes to actually be able to strike at their more equine reliant neighbors.

A few points

- While you make a good point about the tactics, the biggest problem the Roman infantry are going to have is that they just arent equipped properly to deal with the ultra heavy cavalry. The late medieval/southern westerosi cavalry was just much much heavier then anything in the ancient world in terms of arms and armor.

- While massed pike certainly has some roots in Hellenic warfare, the Swiss pike were more akin to a fine watch whereas the Greek Pike were a sundial.

- Good point about the Roman artillery. The other thing to keep in mind is that Cavalry didnt disappear when cannon were starting to appear in numbers on the battlefield (nor did massed infantry formations for that matter).

- Thats a good point about Heavy Cavalry ultimately being displaced by firearms (though it was a long process, it didn't happen overnight). There was a power shift prior to that, but your right, they could still be a decisive arm of any army.

[Toe]

But in general, the late Roman army did quite well against heavy cavalry, due to its discipline. Of course, by that time the Romans were fielding heavily armoured shock cavalry themselves, so that's not a great example for unsullied vs. knights. In fact, if anything, the fact that the Romans adopted the "eastern" tactic of shock charges by armored cavalry suggests that it was highly effective, even against highly professional infantry.

It was Diocletian/Constantine who abandoned the traditional legions in favor of stationary border troops and highly mobile troops further back. But why this was done is not really resolved, if I remember correctly. Yes, one explanation is new enemies with better organization and equipment.

But I have also others such that the extremely long period of civil wars and economic collapse before and during these emperors had destroyed so much of former professional army and its supporting industrial base that the former legionary structure could not recreated and had to be abandoned in favor of a larger but generally more poorly trained and equipped army with simpler tactics. Another that the primary goal with the reorganization was to prevent further civil wars by a "separation of power" system where individual commanders except the emperor and maybe a few others could no longer control complete combined armies able to start new civil wars.

[georgeforeman]

I feel like I need to go back and play Rome: Total War again.

[zmflavius]

I feel like I need to go back and play Rome: Total War again.

Rome total war isn't exactly a reliable source...

Even if it's battles are the most realistic part of it.

(BTW, I still think it's a great game)

But cavalry charges are kind of underpowered in it.

Medieval 2: Total war now...

[Nukelavee]

The imperial Roman legions didn't vanish because military technology outstripped them, they vanished because the empire fell.

The empire didn't fall because the legions weren't effective anymore, it fell because it's leaders made bad choices, or indulged in civil wars.

Heavy calvary exists for one single reason - the charge. The charge is used to shatter formations and moral, allowing the horse troops to basically run down and slaughter the survivors before they can reform. Any heavy cavlary, ie, knight, that dismounted to fight a mob of foot? Dead. Of course, a squad of Romans wasn't a mob, it was a team.

Pilum - the thing about the pilum was the soft iron "neck" between the point and the shaft. If it killed the target, great, but if it didn't... the target usually ended up with a spear stuck in his shield. The soft section bent, making the sheild to awkward to keep, and the pilum impossible to pull out quickly or be re-used.

Mail armour vs stabbing weapons kinda sucks, it's most effective against "slashes".

Lances were useless after the initial charge, 12 foot weapons aren't very good in a melee.

[Tyler Snow]

And a roman slinger was nothing to laugh about.

Plus, Roman infantry kit included stakes, meant to create a barricade.

The next question is - what happens to the horsemen once they have to stop? If the Unsullied have the ability to react and fight as smaller units, any knight who stops moving is toast.

Last - decimation. you know that means 10% losses, right? (classically, the punishment for cowardice - 1/10 legionaires killed by their own men).

Yes, I am aware of where the term 'decimation' comes from but, having been some 2200 years since its creation, like many words, it has taken on new meaning in the English language and can be used in the sense I utilized it in.

Fighting as smaller units, as a shield wall, to pivot and face a cavalry charge seems like a good idea but if you have any sort of foot presence in the face of the Unsullied as they attempted this action would be exposing their flanks. I suppose they could form a testudo variation to protect all sides but the amount of coordination needed to accomplish such a feat, across a battlefield, and with the speed necessary to counter a cavalry action as well as fend off opportunistic infantry seems far fetched to me. The Unsullied strike me as a classic phalanx, which will rely on skirmishers and their own horse to secure their flanks while they press forward.

[Talleyrand]

People keep going on about how the unsullied would just be flanked by cavalry but surely they ca just form a square i mean the Romans did it occasionally

[Xenophon]

Heavy calvary exists for one single reason - the charge. The charge is used to shatter formations and moral, allowing the horse troops to basically run down and slaughter the survivors before they can reform. Any heavy cavlary, ie, knight, that dismounted to fight a mob of foot? Dead. Of course, a squad of Romans wasn't a mob, it was a team.

...

Lances were useless after the initial charge, 12 foot weapons aren't very good in a melee.

The Hundred Years War begs to differ with you. Dismounted knights made for very effective heavy infantry.

Also, you do realize that knights carried secondary weapons, right? Hence the term knightly sword. Knights/cataphract were not the one-shot weapons you seem to be making them out to be.

[Nukelavee]

Tyler - I wasn't trying to talk down to you, vis a vis decimation. The point is, it does mean 1/10 killed, even tho a lot of people use it to mean "wiped out". The problem is, lots of people use it as 1 in 10, lots use it as wiped out...and I always wonder which way it's being used.

The real problem with comparing the Unsullied with Roman legions is that we just don't know enough about the Unsullied.

We know their basic kit that comes with the purchase price, we know they are disciplined, fearless, etc, trained from childhood...but...

We don't know if they are trained in small unit vs large unit tactics, maneauvers, what heavier kit they've trained with.

TBH, if Dany had a single full imperial legion, trained to the height of Roman standards...she wouldn't have the manpower to win Westeros. If she had the legion, and Dorne, even without dragons, she could likely win assuming the current free for all war in Westeros was still raging.

[Xcorpyo001]

The Unsullied are a mix of Roman legions, greek phalanx formation and pikemen formations, all on steroids(the no pain no fear part).

They are train in the use of shield, shortsword and the three spears.The three major types of spears were:

-throwing spear(ranged weapon, more lethal than a simple arrow, especially against armored units)

-fighting spear....medium sized spear, so it could be used even in formation

-long spears, used especially against cavalry.

Now we only know about one fight we were told about. 3000 U formed a single line in front of the city walls and defended very well against cavalry charges and ranged attacks, for an entire day.

Mormont says that the horselords made an error because they didn't flanked them, but they actually couldn't do that. They had the city in their back, and trying to charge in one of the flanks in open field would give the U enough time to use the flank to create another wall of spears(not to mention that the walls were probably manned with archers).

Now about Dani's U. She has 8000 of them, more than enough to use some of them as reserves or to protect the flanks.

I think that in open combat they'll go for a huge circle, having several thousands inside the circle, ready to reinforce the weaker sides of the circle and during all this time raining javelins at the attackers.

I can't believe how many of you are saying that the U. are weak against cavalry charges. People, spear formation(like the U.) are the single major weakness of the cavalry. And they have the numbers to protect their flanks as well.

Although Dani is not a field general, she has very good advisors, and men who know how the Westeros fight.

If the U. are going to fight westeros troops, I can assure you they will not do it in a single line, so they can be attacked from the flanks or from behind.

And if you think that they are not stupid enough to charge the U., read the battle from the end of GoT.

A crescent of enemy spearmen had formed ahead, a double hedgehog bristling with steel, waiting behind tall oaken shields marked with the sunburst of Karstark. Gregor Clegane was the first to reach them, leading a wedge of armored veterans. Half the horses shied at the last second, breaking their charge before the row of spears. The others died, sharp steel points ripping through their chests. Tyrion saw a dozen men go down. The Mountain's stallion reared, lashing out with iron-shod hooves as a barbed spearhead raked across his neck. Maddened, the beast lunged into the ranks.

They simply charge at a spear formation. All knights who are idiotic enough to go ahead died.

Meanwhile, those who managed to stop their horses, are waiting for a gap to form.

That would have work for the Karstarks, but waiting ten feet away from a thousand javelin throwing guys until someone will break through is not a very good idea.

Now, a charge is a close cavalry formation. And since the U. are able to create larger circles(hedgehog formations), they can rain javelins on them all the time it will take them to reach their formation. Now if a horse in front will be wounded, the ones behind it will also fall or it will be delayed. So they can't keep the formation all along. even if some of them get through, the U. have the skill to close the gap really fast.

And if the cavalry fails, all they have is the usual units(peasants with spears, swords and arrows who just learned which is the pointy end)

Not only that, but Westeros'a armies are weaken at the moment(unable to unify), many good fighters are already dead, tens of thousands are either dead or wounded, and since Cersey became queen regent they have no fleet and her council members and her version of the kingsguard are made of idiots, torturers and sellswords.

How could they win? The only way I see it is to pin down the U. with cavalry that is only looking for a weakness while the archers rain arrows on them all day long, until the U. are all dead(or they aren't enough to hold formation) or the archers run out of arrows(most likely). And this works if Dani has only the U., not to mention her dragons have to stay out of the equation(or the Golden company, Ironborn, sellswords, Selmy's recruits, etc).

Another weakness the Westeros army will have is the fact they don't know who the U. are. If someone will tell Cersey that Dani is marching with an army of 8k eunuch slaves, she will think at an armed Varys of an eunuch version of Pod.

I think that GRRM made the Unsullied so strong, that he'll have to let them behind to protect Mereen and the free cities.

Dani will go with a small number of U. who can act as her guard, and some mercenaries/new allies that will probably betray her eventually.

EDIT:

The cavalry that won battles against spear formations had cavalry archers, mounted spearmen(something like the jousts they are having...but they don't have enough guys good enough to form a large enough force to make a difference), or huge numbers(and I'm talking about 10000-15000 knights in a single charge).

[Talleyrand]

^I'm not sure about them being left behind. They may be powerful but there's only 8,000 they could be overwhelmed by the sure amount of troops the Tyrells alone can summon.

[Snowy89]

Pilum - the thing about the pilum was the soft iron "neck" between the point and the shaft. If it killed the target, great, but if it didn't... the target usually ended up with a spear stuck in his shield. The soft section bent, making the sheild to awkward to keep, and the pilum impossible to pull out quickly or be re-used.

The bending part is actually utter nonsense, can you imagine the efforts it would have taken EVERY time after a battle when they wanted to reuse their pilums to straighten them all? There was some forum with an extensive scientific test on pila, I'll see if I can find it still.

Not too mention that even if the point didn't bend the distance between the both lines would have been too close for many people to wrestle the pilum from their shield and throw it back. What do you think are you more like to do when you see a line of big shields running at you while you have a spear in your shield, brace for impact or expose yourself and try to get the damn thing out?

[Tyler Snow]

That's true Nukalavee. Though, I'm sure if we take a look at the Westerosi attitudes towards Eastern armies, they will simply throw their men at the Unsullied, hoping to break them and will be cut down in the defensively potent Unsullied. I don't think I'd call the Unsullied equivalent to a Roman legion but more a Greek phalanx.

[zmflavius]

The bending part is actually utter nonsense, can you imagine the efforts it would have taken EVERY time after a battle when they wanted to reuse their pilums to straighten them all? There was some forum with an extensive scientific test on pila, I'll see if I can find it still.

Not too mention that even if the point didn't bend the distance between the both lines would have been too close for many people to wrestle the pilum from their shield and throw it back. What do you think are you more like to do when you see a line of big shields running at you while you have a spear in your shield, brace for impact or expose yourself and try to get the damn thing out?

No, the bending part is a fact. They were designed specifically as a one-shot weapon, and to debalance a shield. Having pilum stuck in the shield would make holding it up more difficult, and anyways it would be cheaper to simply collect two new pila after a battle.

[Nukelavee]

Yup - it's all about making a one shot weapon, and/or slowing down the target. A man with a 3 or 4 foot shaft wiggling around in his sheild isn't going to be all that effective in a fight.

And - they mass produced pilum, they didn't actually try to re-use them as is...but if you were going to take the time to gather them up after, couple quick hits with a hammer, and good to go.

[Snowy89]

No, the bending part is a fact. They were designed specifically as a one-shot weapon, and to debalance a shield. Having pilum stuck in the shield would make holding it up more difficult, and anyways it would be cheaper to simply collect two new pila after a battle.

Respons:

Results of experimental archaeology

Thanks in part to experimental archaeology, it is generally believed that the pilum's design evolved to be armour-piercing: the pyramidal head would punch a small hole through an enemy shield allowing the thin shank to pass through and penetrate a distance sufficient to hit the man behind it. The thick wooden shaft provided the weight behind the punch.

In one description, one of the two iron nails that held the iron shaft in place was replaced with a weak wooden pin that would break on impact causing the shaft to twist sideways. Gaius Marius is sometimes given credit for this modification. It has been argued that later pila were constructed so that the iron shank would bend on impact. Having penetrated a shield through a small hole and its shank having bent, such a pilum would now be more difficult to remove, and, of course, impossible to throw back.

In his 2006 "Caesar: Life of a Colossus," author Adrian Goldsworthy states that, "contrary to deeply entrenched myth," the pila did not bend on impact. The weight of the wood, the long iron shank and pyramidal barb alone sufficiently hampered any struck shield. In fact, the iron was sufficiently hard that pila were occasionally used as late as Caesar's campaigns as thrusting spears.

By the time the volley of pila had reached the foe (usually only 10-15 yards distant for best effect), the legionaries were already charging and very quickly at work with their swords on the enemy line. There was probably too little time for a foe to locate a suitable pilum, pull it out of whatever it had hit and throw it back.

Further complications and injury could ensue if the understandably-reluctant enemy did not discard his precious shield quickly enough, as there would be a great press from the men behind him.

Opinion among archaeologists once held that the main function of the shank was to disable both shields and the pila itself by bending, but it is now thought that the pilum was a form of "personal artillery" designed simply to provide a massive counter-shock against any charging foe, and, as necessary, turn any legionary into a spearman.

That's all for now, I'm happy to look up more later.

As you see it did happen but only after quite some time did it get that function and it didn't really stuck, as the late roman armies used plumbatae rather than pila.

[Talleyrand]

Yup - it's all about making a one shot weapon, and/or slowing down the target. A man with a 3 or 4 foot shaft wiggling around in his sheild isn't going to be all that effective in a fight.

And - they mass produced pilum, they didn't actually try to re-use them as is...but if you were going to take the time to gather them up after, couple quick hits with a hammer, and good to go.

Plus if it does hit the person having a 3 or 4 foot shaft wiggling around in your gut or shoulder will take up a few people. IIRC the points were barbed so if it does hit you it isn't coming out without taking about three others to get it out.

[Buried Treasure]

Just to bring the convo back to whether Dany can armour her Unsullied.

You have all convinced me that she is at present rich enough to armour her Unsullied army from the plunder of the cities she has taken. However I wonder if she still be able to afford this after a few years of feeding her 'army' of freedmen. They are going to be a real drain on her resources - especially if she permits them to follow her to Westeros.

[Tyler Snow]

That is a great point Buried Treasure brings up. It wasn't so much the formation that made the phalanx so formidable but the fact that the troops were armored nearly head to toe in plate, making them very tough to kill. Dragons and her claim may be enough to outfit her army properly but we'll see.