How good are the unsullied?

[zmflavius]

This, from Wiki:

They begin their training at five years old, training from dawn until dusk until they have mastered their shortsword, shield and three spears.

I meant the types of spears.

[Rakka]

But as the old agade goes, if you want to train a good longbowman, start with his grandfather.

[Jon Lannister]

My guess is this: as far as we know, the only great force of horseman in the East, are the Dothraki. So, it wouldn't be hard for the people in the East to state the Unsullied as the most powerfull warriors in the world. But, then, we think, the Unsullied defeated a large number of Dothraki in the battle of Qohor. But, even being very efficient, I believe the Dothraki aren't has deadly as the knights of Westeros. I mean, a knight of the Seven Kingdoms wears steal from is head to the tip of his toes, they use big spears, longswords, and not only the riders have very good protection, but the horses have it to. Of course that, if unhorsed, a knight would be easily defeated by an Unsullied, I believe. The armor would only make him more vulnerable, slower. But, a great force of knights would break the lines of the Unsullied.

But, with all of this, I don't mean the knights could really defeat the Unsullied. The Unsullied were trained to fight till the last man, never giving up. We can say that, in a battle against the Unsullied, we cannot count the morale as a important factor to defeat them. We can't say the same with the armies of Westeros. Even if the Seven Kingdoms could gather a huge force of true knights, not freeriders (wich, I believe, they can't), even knights have the morale factor. They would break off when they found the Unsullied weren't as easy to break as, let's say, common westerosi infantry. Also, as I said, if a knights was unhorsed, he had no chance against an Unsullied, and we must say it's not that hard to unhorse a knight.

[Nukelavee]

Pike covers a lot of ground - what we think of as pikes were usually 12-15 feet long, set up in 3 ranks, one low angled up, one rank mid level and horizontal, and a rank held overhand, and high, ready to go stabbity stab.

Alexander used a similar formation and weapon with his phalanx, with 18 foot shafts (so i've read), but it was a mobile formation.

Based on what i've read, 10-15 foot spears would be workable, as well.

[Chirios]

Do we think there's a difference between "pike" and "long spear"? I would interpret them as being basically the same thing but I'm no expert in historical weapondry. I am a bit surprised that The Unsullied were never trained in Archery. But Archers can be reasonably effective even if poorly trained if massed appropriately. Plus, they are highly trained and physically fit, so they would out shoot a typical conscript in Westeros to be sure.

Long spears are long sticks with knife like blades on the end. Pikes have the knife like blade plus little hooked blades that they use to drag horsemen off their horses.

The unsullied are infantry. We aren't sure if they use long spears or if they use pikes but it's really irrelevant. What matters a lot more is the discipline of the soldiers and the terrain that they're fighting on. On the right ground the knights of Westeros would get slaughtered. If the Unsullied had a way to protect their wings (the major issue here) and/or were able to march in the turtle like square formation, and turn quickly enough as the Swiss Pikemen learned how to; then the only real option the Westerosi would have would be to try and shoot them from a distance with their archers or to swing round back and attack them from behind. Minus that the cavalry would be pretty much neutered because charging a massed enemy armed with spears from the front on horseback may look cool, but it's dumb tactics.

But as noted, the unsullied aren't exactly going to march by themselves.

Am I right in thinking that as in modern day history, the eastern nations of Asshai/Qarth/Pentos are much wealthier and more advanced than Westeros? Because from what I remember, the merchants all came from the East. If that's so, then it's much more likely that Dany would win anyway, simply because she has a larger economic base from which to launch a war.

[Xenophon]

Long spears are long sticks with knife like blades on the end. Pikes have the knife like blade plus little hooked blades that they use to drag horsemen off their horses.

Not in normal English. There may be some distinction in other languages, but in English any very long spear is a pike.

[TrueMetis]

Not in normal English. There may be some distinction in other languages, but in English any very long spear is a pike.

Not in the English I speak.

[Chirios]

My mistake. I was confusing the pike and the halberd. The pike is a long stick with a knife like blade reinforced with metal strips, between 3-7 metres long, the halberd is a bladed pike but usually only 1.5-1.8 metres long. The bill is a spear with a hooked blade.

http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?ParagraphID=gle

^scroll down to where it says Swiss Pikes and Halberds and you'll be able to understand what I'm talking about.

[Talleyrand]

I meant the types of spears.

Well at the time i think they are the only type of fighting spears there are.

[Xcorpyo001]

Spear formations are excellent against cavalry, and from what GRRM told us about that fight of the Unsullied against Dothraki, they can defend very well against arrows as well, the real weakness of all spear formation.

The key of their power is if they are commanded by a good general, and the three spears they know to use.

If they are trained to throw spears(this will explain why they aren't trained with a bow), they are a pretty rounded type of soldiers.

If they don't use range attacks, that can be their weakness. They must be pinned down until a weakness appears in their lines and they can be charged by cavalry without large losses for the attacking troops.

Anyway, I think the Westeros armies will lose 3-5 soldiers for every Unsullied they kill, so it will be a very costly victory. There is a good thing that most of the Westeros Lords and generals are cold hearted killers and they care little about the human losses, so they'll probably make the sacrifice.

From my point of view, the best suited troops to engage the Unsullied and defeat them easily are the Wildlings, but led by a good general.

The Unsullied are trained to fight most types of troops, but the Wilds have more unorthodox fighting tactics.

All they need to do is keep the Unsullied down with arrow fire while their cavalry charges their fixed positions.

Ohh, and by cavalry I mean giants riding mammoths. There is no force in the world that can stop a mammoth in charge(if he gets near the enemy lines), even if they manage to kill him. They will break the Unsullied lines easily(think LotR and oliphants), and if they are backed by riders and some warged beasts to keep them to busy to regroup, the Unsullied will be in big trouble.

[zmflavius]

From my point of view, the best suited troops to engage the Unsullied and defeat them easily are the Wildlings, but led by a good general.

The Unsullied are trained to fight most types of troops, but the Wilds have more unorthodox fighting tactics.

All they need to do is keep the Unsullied down with arrow fire while their cavalry charges their fixed positions.

Ohh, and by cavalry I mean giants riding mammoths. There is no force in the world that can stop a mammoth in charge(if he gets near the enemy lines), even if they manage to kill him. They will break the Unsullied lines easily(think LotR and oliphants), and if they are backed by riders and some warged beasts to keep them to busy to regroup, the Unsullied will be in big trouble.

Your argument works in theory, but there are some minor problems.

1) Wildlings have nowhere near enough discipline to execute such maneuvers. Their archers have no concept of fire discipline, and their mammoths go berserk too easily.

2) Using archers to pin down infantry while breaking them apart with cavalry is hardly unorthodox.

3) A similar situation actually took place during Alexander the Great's invasion of India, where he dealt with enemy elephants by having his hoplite formations, instead of attempting to brace for an elephant charge, open their lines slightly and then attack the elephant at all sides by surrounding it. Alexander also won.

[Xenophon]

Spear formations are excellent against cavalry, and from what GRRM told us about that fight of the Unsullied against Dothraki, they can defend very well against arrows as well, the real weakness of all spear formation.

If by "defend against arrows" you mean, "use plot armor to turn their opponents into incompetent fools", then yes.

[Nukelavee]

Plus - elephants have bad tempers, and armies using them often had it backfire when the elephants lost it after a few to many wounds, and went beserk.

Plus, war elephants were most effective because they freaked out the horses...

Btw - the oliphant scen, in RotK? Worst plan ever, the Riders of Roi-Tan should have never charged headlong...

[Tyler Snow]

Plus - elephants have bad tempers, and armies using them often had it backfire when the elephants lost it after a few to many wounds, and went beserk.

Plus, war elephants were most effective because they freaked out the horses...

Btw - the oliphant scen, in RotK? Worst plan ever, the Riders of Roi-Tan should have never charged headlong...

Agreed. Also, unsupported by infantry? Pure folly.

As for the Unsullied, while we can debate them vs. the knights of Westeros for days to no real conclusion, is it safe to say that the Unsullied are the best fighting force in Essos?

[Talleyrand]

Plus - elephants have bad tempers, and armies using them often had it backfire when the elephants lost it after a few to many wounds, and went beserk.

Plus, war elephants were most effective because they freaked out the horses...

Btw - the oliphant scen, in RotK? Worst plan ever, the Riders of Roi-Tan should have never charged headlong...

Plus Oliphants are massive when compared to mammoths

[Xcorpyo001]

Plus Oliphants are massive when compared to mammoths

Yes, but the mammoths don't have to charge moving targets on horses, just some stationary formations.

They just have to be a lot bigger than a horse, and heavy.

Even if the Unsullied can use throwing spears, if they are under constant arrow fire(and yes, I think that GRRM exaggerated their resistance against archers), they can't leave the protection of the shields to throw them, so the mammoths will charge at the formation at full speed(it won't be fast, but even if they are killed by the impact with the wall of spears, the inertial force of the initial charge will push them several feet deeper, and they'll crush the first lines of the Unsullied even if they die the moment they make contact with the formation).

And if they survive the initial charge, they can do a lot of damage.

But the end GRRM will decide who is best. They can all be killed while they sleep by some merenese slaves.

I for one think the wildlings units had a lot of promise, but GRRM butchered them to boost Jon's commanding skills and so Stannis can have his big entry.

A general having wargs in his command tent so he can know the situation at all times with eagle scouts and who can send orders to his commanders in the field via some warged animals near him can command the battle in real time, especially on extended battlefields.

Armored mammoths, giants with armors and warhammers heavy enough to crush a knight and his horse in one blow, armored bears(k, I'm exaggerating now), wolf packs used as 'shock troops', etc.

Alas, this will probably never happen :(

[Talleyrand]

A general having wargs in his command tent so he can know the situation at all times with eagle scouts and who can send orders to his commanders in the field via some warged animals near him can command the battle in real time, especially on extended battlefields.

Armored mammoths, giants with armors and warhammers heavy enough to crush a knight and his horse in one blow, armored bears(k, I'm exaggerating now), wolf packs used as 'shock troops', etc.

Alas, this will probably never happen :(

How do any of the lords get mammoths and giants on their side and then produce enough armour for all of them?

Also armoured bears? and plus how do you get a the wolfpacks to attack?

[Xcorpyo001]

How do any of the lords get mammoths and giants on their side and then produce enough armour for all of them?

Also armoured bears? and plus how do you get a the wolfpacks to attack?

Stannis will give the wildlings that joined him better equipment from the northern lords that will help him(willingly or not so much)

Arming the giants can be done relatively fast. Any marching army has a lot of metalsmith to repair weapons, etc. They can take the metal from the dead soldiers(or the one they killed). And the armorers don't have to make some art pieces, just some plate to protect the head and front of the mammoth.

The older wargs can control many animals at once, and if their animals are let loose to gather more followers(like Arya and Nymeria did), they can raise a big number of animals to their aid.

The bears were a little off the mark. But since a warg can spend years making a connection with one special animal(like Jon and Ghost), and the animal is big and strong enough to carry some armor(bear, direwolf), they can at least try to protect the head and the front of the animal.

But we digress from the main topic here.

The Unsullied will as good as GRRM will make them to be.

If they are allowed to use their tactics, and the enemy doesn't have a lot of archers, they can hold off against virtually anything they faced before(or similar)

If they are pinned don and under heavy arrow attacks, they'll get slaughtered.

The enemy is attacking them by surprise...they get slaughtered

They catch the enemy by surprise... unchallenged victory.

By themselves, they'll be killed by a larger and mixed army, having a lot of archers, and cavalry to attack the flanks and keep them away from the infantry and archers.

If Dany will attack with only the Unsullied, she will most likely lose.

If she manage to have the Unsullied, some decent knights, some archers, cavalry and a fleet strong enough to carry all her troops fast and safe to any location reachable by water, she won't even need her dragons.

[Nukelavee]

Xcorpy - thing is - the mammoths might not even get to close with the infantry - elephants tend to go beserk when injured, and can be frightend by a lot of things (not mice, mind you, lol). They aren't above peeling off their riders and flailing, or reversing and going back.

Plus -who the hell is gonna tame and train all those mammoths? Even work elephants aren't domesticated, just tamed.

[Xcorpyo001]

Xcorpy - thing is - the mammoths might not even get to close with the infantry - elephants tend to go beserk when injured, and can be frightend by a lot of things (not mice, mind you, lol). They aren't above peeling off their riders and flailing, or reversing and going back.

Plus -who the hell is gonna tame and train all those mammoths? Even work elephants aren't domesticated, just tamed.

Mammoths are not elephants.

And I was talking about them having a good general, and good support(especially archers).

It was a theoretical example: the Unsullied can't use ranged weapons because they are pinned down by archers. So there is nothing that can stop them from reaching the enemy lines(except a rat infestation in the middle of the field).

I really hope this is not the last time we'll see the mammoths and wildlings(especially wargs) in battle. GRRM just planted the entire army at the base of the wall, just sitting there and collecting arrows, rocks, hot oil, fire, spears, etc from the NW.

And when Stannis' army came, they just run away?!? Lol, it was pathetic(especially since the wildlings had a horn that could bring the entire wall down in an instant, crushing the entire NW without losing one wildling life in the process...I am disappointed).

EDIT: forgot to mention that the mammoths are already trained by the giants. To bad that they were all killed by a couple hundred NW troops. Or at least the giants and mammoths that joined Mance in his quest for glory, but clearly not victory.