How good are the unsullied?

[zmflavius]

I really hope this is not the last time we'll see the mammoths and wildlings(especially wargs) in battle. GRRM just planted the entire army at the base of the wall, just sitting there and collecting arrows, rocks, hot oil, fire, spears, etc from the NW.

And when Stannis' army came, they just run away?!? Lol, it was pathetic(especially since the wildlings had a horn that could bring the entire wall down in an instant, crushing the entire NW without losing one wildling life in the process...I am disappointed).

It was pathetic, because even well-equipped wildlings have comparatively low-quality armour, they lack discipline, they were surprised, and the bulk of the host was women and children anyhow.

Have you ever played Medieval 2: Total War? If so, watch what happens when you throw a few hundred mailed knights and mounted sergeants against a full stack of peasants. That's basically the same thing, except Stannis is attacking from a successful ambush.

[Xcorpyo001]

It was pathetic, because even well-equipped wildlings have comparatively low-quality armour, they lack discipline, they were surprised, and the bulk of the host was women and children anyhow.

Have you ever played Medieval 2: Total War? If so, watch what happens when you throw a few hundred mailed knights and mounted sergeants against a full stack of peasants. That's basically the same thing, except Stannis is attacking from a successful ambush.

Yes, I played a lot of strategies in my time, including all the games in Total War series(I'm dying to try Shogun 2 TW :)). And that's precisely the point. I know for a fact that there are dozens of ways to use those troops a lot better(even with poor armor or even yet, totally naked).

And since they have mammoths, animals, etc, they are closer to Rome than Medieval(at least the wildlings units: elephant archer, heavy elephants, those canine units the romans had for the wolves).

Tell me now. When playing Medieval, is it a good thing to just park all your cavalry and best troops under the wall and just wait for the enemy to run out of arrows/projectiles? I don't think so.

And I don't think the wildlings could be taken by surprise so easily. They killed all the scouts Mormont sent to spy on them, including Halfhand's team(which was hardcore), but they missed the huge army flanking them???? While they had warged eagles to scout around, wild animals that can smell a soldier a mile away, some scouts, troops sent in all direction to look for weaknesses in the wall? Not bloody likely.

And they were fighting in a huge forest, that wasn't cut down in hundreds of years. So imagine fallen trees, very dense foliage, etc. It will be impossible for cavalry to charge in formation(if charge at all), and so they couldn't maintain the element of surprise for long.

And I wouldn't call an army made of giants(legendary huge monsters that until now killed several NW people sent to block a tunnel), mammoths, wolves and a lot of skilled fighters a bunch of peasants.

The wildlings can do a lot better, even with less than Mance had at his command. All they need is a good leader.

[The Undead Martyr]

Ned said it best: nine times out of ten, discipline beats valor. The wildings might be fierce enough to fight, but they have no cohesion whatsoever. Worse, they have next to no armor/weapons- most of them have wood, stone and bone. They would definitely fight longer and harder than a peasant army, but they would be overwhelmed by better equipped, better trained soldiers, just as with Stannis.

[Nukelavee]

mammoths are close enough to elephant to consider them the same for this.

the wildings had to assualt the wall where they did, any other crossing sould have been nearly impossible. they had wights and others behind them. they had no reason to expect Stannis showing up.

I'll be honest - yeah, you paint a great picture of a fun fight to read, but, i can't see martin going that way, it isn't his style.

[Kaitscralt]

And they were fighting in a huge forest, that wasn't cut down in hundreds of years. So imagine fallen trees, very dense foliage, etc. It will be impossible for cavalry to charge in formation(if charge at all), and so they couldn't maintain the element of surprise for long.

I thought that a good chunk of land beyond the Wall was maintained by the Watch? Trees cut down and whatnot. I always assumed it was a mile or so, since people can go hang out at the godswood.

[Xenophon]

I thought that a good chunk of land beyond the Wall was maintained by the Watch? Trees cut down and whatnot. I always assumed it was a mile or so, since people can go hang out at the godswood.

Me too. Stannis's charge makes no sense otherwise.

[Talleyrand]

Wasn't the reason Stannis managed to get so close that the wildings weren't expecting anything to come at them from behind during the day?

[Xcorpyo001]

I thought that a good chunk of land beyond the Wall was maintained by the Watch? Trees cut down and whatnot. I always assumed it was a mile or so, since people can go hang out at the godswood.

Yes, they used to do that in the past, but since they didn't had the man power to continue doing that now, the forest is touching the wall almost everywhere. There is a main road there, in front of the fort(the wilds attack from there), and a path to the godswood.

Maybe the front of the forts is cleared away, but the portion was occupied by wilds.

Remember that wildling team that climbed the wall by climbing a three that was actually touching the wall, thus having a head start.

[Nukelavee]

Oh, I disagree with what you think the forest north of the wall is like. Once you get past the border between open land and old or first growth forest...there isn't a ton of undergrowth.

[TrueMetis]

Yes, they used to do that in the past, but since they didn't had the man power to continue doing that now, the forest is touching the wall almost everywhere. There is a main road there, in front of the fort(the wilds attack from there), and a path to the godswood.

Maybe the front of the forts is cleared away, but the portion was occupied by wilds.

Remember that wildling team that climbed the wall by climbing a three that was actually touching the wall, thus having a head start.

At Castle black the forest is cut back very far, far enough that the wildings could set up their tents in the fields there and not have to worry about being hit by arrows from the wall. If it wasn't like this Stannis would never have charged because you do not have you horses charge in a forest.

[Lord.Snow]

We know that unsullied follow the "Feel no Pain" rule same as the Blood Angels Space Marines War-Hammer 40k special rules.

-this could really serve them over in Westeros when Winter is upon them.

but given that they wear only loincloths and helmets some boiled leather and warm close might serve as well.

then again if they make it with dragons this might not be such an issue for them.

Still somehow i don't see many surviving the winter tho it would be great to get some of those guys to take the black lol.

[Ser Lepus]

ummmm The Unsullied aren't really warriors, they are soldiers; there is a difference. The Unsullied work together as a team, or a machine. They aren't out for glory, they don't care for honour. That alone is a huge advantage over the Dothroki or Westerosi. They don't actually need "pikes" to stop a calvary charge, heavy spears alone would serve well enough. Crassus and his troops lost primarily because they let the Parthians bait them, and were out in the desert with no cover, marching, with no way to respond to the horse archers. Had Crassus picked a spot with water to make a stand, and built the usual camp...he still might have lost, but it would have been far more expensive for teh Parthians. Plus, the Romans didn't have stirrups, and so couldn't maximize the use of calvary (I forget if the Parthians had them or not). Tactically - The Dothroki are totally undisciplined in battle, archers can have their effect minimized by use of a turtle formation, and........the Unsullied use shortswords. Everybody else seems to rely on edge in swordplay, teh Unsullied will be using the tip, and that is what kills most effeciently. Assuming the commander isn't a complete idiot, and has some other troops to add options, having a block of 8k unbreakable infantry to anchor you? Yeah, you would like need at least a 3 to 4 to 1 advantage in numbers to beat them...if they had a prepared position.

Also, Crassus had his troops to form a dense square instead of a line, as his advisors told him, which allowed the phartians to surround them and simply shoot their arrows into the dense square without even having to aim.

If the Romans had formed a line they coudn´t have been surrounded, and many more arrows would have missed.

[jarl the climber]

The best real world comparison to the Unsullied are probaly the Mamalukes. The Mamalukes were slaves trained from an early age in warfare all though they were not eunechs. I've always thought the concept of the Good Masters of Astapor handing over a huge army of thier best soldiers for a hatchling dragon and a few boats of trade goods without anyway of contrlling the dragon and no assurance that Dany wouln't use the Unsullied against them kind of ruined the whole Essos storyline for me. Nor is thier any evidence that the other slave cities bought Unsullied from them.Why doesn't Yunkai or Mereen have Unsullied if they are so good? The Unsullied will wear armor of any kind if it is provided, Astapori did not sell them with it.theytake some kind of concoction that makes them immune to pain and they worship some Goddess called the maid of battle,don't know if that has any signifagance but perhaps Dany fufills some sort of prophecy of thiers. But who knows? Also there might be some kind of spell or magic that is cast on them when they are cut that we don't know about a trade secret of the Astopori.Perhaps Dany as the Queen of phrophecy was able to break it and turn the Unsullied against them. Hard to believe someone didn't think of that earlier(buying a bunch of unsullied and then turning around and using them to sack Astapor and get your gold back). It is called the switcheroo tactic.

[Frey Pie]

Id say theyre the best cohesive fighting unit in the books with the wildlings being the worst. Howver they do have one big drawback-they dont care. They have nothing to fight for.

Also it is said that eunuchs are weaker then other men. The lack of testosterone accounts for this. Theyre also supposed to have lower metabolism-less energy.

One on one they wouldnt win.

10 on 10 theyd beat most.

10000 v 10000 theyd beat all.

But theyre not indestructable. An experienced commander will find a chink in their armur and exploit it. For people who think theyre indestructable-why do barristan and dany sweat inside meereen if the unsullied could destroy the enemy so easily?

[zmflavius]

Id say theyre the best cohesive fighting unit in the books with the wildlings being the worst. Howver they do have one big drawback-they dont care. They have nothing to fight for.

Also it is said that eunuchs are weaker then other men. The lack of testosterone accounts for this. Theyre also supposed to have lower metabolism-less energy.

One on one they wouldnt win.

10 on 10 theyd beat most.

10000 v 10000 theyd beat all.

But theyre not indestructable. An experienced commander will find a chink in their armur and exploit it. For people who think theyre indestructable-why do barristan and dany sweat inside meereen if the unsullied could destroy the enemy so easily?

It certainly doesn't help that they're not.

But I think in the book, it's mentioned that they don't have enough in general to keep the lid on Meereen and still march out and crush the Yunkishmen.

[Pallantides]

Yeah great series, here's the longbow episode on youtube: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=UPskCGVAsCU

Seeing how many times this documentary series is referenced on numerous different forums, I'm glad that I uploaded it in full to youtube (yes, Kisk79 is my channel).

[SweetRobin4Life]

I love how everyone is calling the Unsullied the best fighting force in Essos when they forget a certain sellsword band in the Disputed Lands.

The Golden Company can beat the U if Aegon has to fight Dany. They have 10,000 troops. Those troops arent just of a single type like the U are. They have swordsmen, cavalry, archers, and elephants. That makes them adaptable.

If the U face off against the GC under Griff I'm predicting he'll send in the elephants first. GRRM elephant's are significantly bigger than the common ones we know, as evidenced in some of his descriptions of Volantis. The elephants will be brought down by the spearmen, yes, but they'll sufficiently break the U's formation that a heavy cavalry charge can break through. Swordsman can follow through to fight the U once they've been disrupted.

Also let's not forget the GC's archers. They have short, Dothraki horn bows; heavier, more powerful Westerosi longbows; and the massive, goldenheart, Summer Islander bows. I'm predicting it'll be like the scene in 300 where the arrows blot out the sun... except the U can't hide beneath they're shields because they have elephants stomping on them.

IMO, the GC is the best fighting force in GRRM's world. They have the mammoths of the wildlings, the knights of Westeros, professional foot soldiers of the Free Cities, and the best archers we've seen yet. Most importantly: they're adaptable. The takeover of Griffin's Roost showed how they can take fortified positions as well by working over and around them, unlike the U who's idea of breaching Mereen is to let hot oil pour over them as they smash the gates.

[Josephxoxo]

They are good as a group like the phalanx formations of old. However, imo one on one fights won't go so well for them if they ever get separated. They don't wear armor and any knight would beat them. Yeah, they're taught hard discipline. It doesn't make them good warriors though as they're trained in the slave cities.

I also agree with the post above me.

[Darth Rivers]

My guess is that Martin was inspired from Spartans to create the Unsullied. So yes they are THAT good.

Spartans weren't all that great, since they were frequently defeated by untrained opponents. But knights have plate armor, and spears are useless against plate armor. No, really, you can't pierce plate with a spear. In fact, you cannot pierce mail with any handheld melee weapon either.

[BigBucket]

We know that with their backs against the wall (literally), they can hold and repel repeated light cavalry charges. So they're disciplined and steadfast but that's about all we know tbh. If you fight a battle in a way that negates every one of your advantages while playing up to all of your opponents, then you will lose. That battle says more about the Dothraki, and their leader in particular, than it does about the Unsullied.

As far as an invasion of Westeros scenario goes it would depend completely on the individual battle. Harry their supplies and lines of communication, force them to fight in terrain of your choosing and utilise the resources you have in the most appropriate and effective way and there's no reason to think they'd do better than anyone else. 10,000 Unsullied get caught in a Whispering Wood type scenario and you've got 10,000 eunuch's feeding the crows.