How good are the unsullied?

[Sir Tobi]

Late medival Pike are a very good example, what a highly trained phalanx could do. German Landsknecht and Swiss mercenary troops were an equal in discipline and better equipped than romans ... but thats really late.

what is medival? <1500?

The Knights were already dying out by the time the Landsknechts entered the battlefield.

If you match a Marian Legion against Wallensteins Landsknechts you have the Reichsmarine vs. Obamas US Navy all over again, though there are 1500 years between the first two and 50 between the second *g*

[zmflavius]

In both cases your compressing hundreds of years of histories and many changes into a blanket statement, that isn't always true. The late medieval period for instance was defined by highly professional mercenary forces, the two most notable being the Swiss Pike and the German Landsknect. These units were if anything more disciplined and more heavily armed then their roman counterparts. The Swiss in particular were able to do things with Pike that would have been unthinkable to the roman generals. Rather then a static line that risked being pulled apart, the Swiss often operated in independent columns that could support each other and outmaneuver their opponents.

The Swiss Pikemen and the German Landsknect and other types of forces from the Late Medieval period have been absent from our discussions precisely because our discussion does not range there. Our discussion derives from a comparison between Westeros and the RL, and Westeros is around the Early Middle Ages.

[Sir Tobi]

Early Middle Ages and Plate armor?

The knights armor in westeros is 16th century with Armet, closed Visor Helmets and hardened steel with infused colours. Thats precisely the Landsknecht time.

[TrueMetis]

Early Middle Ages and Plate armor?

The knights armor in westeros is 16th century with Armet, closed Visor Helmets and hardened steel with infused colours. Thats precisely the Landsknecht time.

The armour is but everything else isn't. From what I can tell they don't even armour the horse yet.

[Nukelavee]

Toby - You do see a lot of references to "field plate" (basically, full plate), but it seems in most scenes of battle, the average knight/house sword uses a combination of plate over mail. ie, breastplate, helm, shoulders, hands and lower limbs in plate, with mail covering much of the rest.

[zmflavius]

Early Middle Ages and Plate armor?

The knights armor in westeros is 16th century with Armet, closed Visor Helmets and hardened steel with infused colours. Thats precisely the Landsknecht time.

But there aren't really that many mercenary companies up to the standards of the Late Middle Ages. All the companies are essentially knock-offs of westerosi knights, with no major infantry formations.

Furthermore, while armour tech has in some degree advanced to that level, the lack of a number of world-changing events such as the Black Death has done little to change the social structure of Westeros.

[Sir Tobi]

Black Tom in TMK had an armored horse and if he did, then others had armored horses for sure.

however this is fantasy with element from Hannibal up to the 30years war. So you cant exclude much besides gunpowder.

[Tyler Snow]

I think we are all missing the point here...which group would Stomp the Yard better? I'd say the Unsullied. All that eastern music and nothing impeding their leg movements, tough to beat.

P.S. To drag us bag onto topic, I guess, due to the time comparison, we could ask the question now who is better; The Unsullied vs. Wallensteins Landsknecht or Swiss Mercenary Pikemen?

[Sir Tobi]

armored knights vs. Pikemen ... 50:50

armored knights vs. Unsullied ... 70:30

armored knights vs. Spearmen ... 80:20

with good plate armor. If the armor is "only" ringmail shift the points a bit to the infantry *g*

[Nine of Spades]

Early Middle Ages and Plate armor?

The knights armor in westeros is 16th century with Armet, closed Visor Helmets and hardened steel with infused colours. Thats precisely the Landsknecht time.

Exactly, Martin sort of blurs things here.

Obviously there is no equivalent to the Landsknecht or Swiss in Martin world. Infantry in Westeros seems as a whole to be poorly developed.

My point was the general notion that Europeans were hopelessly backwards throughout the middle ages and never learned to fight again properly until they got guns. Guns just tied into a military change that had started far earlier. There is the notion that if only knights had fought good infantry the would be paper tigers. But they did. Arguably the best in the world without gunpowder at the end of middle ages, and they were still relevant. The Romans, who used inferior weapons for fighting cavalry, would have been in deep trouble.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

They are the only 100% professional army in the books. They have absolute obedience. They have been trained in every aspect of combat. They don't care about rape or plunder. They have almost no emotion.

As a solid fighting block, they sound perfect. How well they do in practise will of course depend upon how well they are commanded.

[Talleyrand]

armored knights vs. Pikemen ... 50:50

armored knights vs. Unsullied ... 70:30

armored knights vs. Spearmen ... 80:20

with good plate armor. If the armor is "only" ringmail shift the points a bit to the infantry *g*

I don't think people give enough thought to the fact that the Unsullied won't flee when being rode down or if they start to lose. Which mercenaries were prone to do. Plus there's their reputation. If any Westerosi noblemen know about them it will likely be roughly the same things Jorah heard. That they're some of the greatest warriors around and that they don't feel pain or fear. And any rumour that spreads among the footsoldiers will likely be embellished until the Unsullied are the most deadly killing machines to exist ever. Morale can be a big thing in battle and IMO will most likely play in the Unsullied's favour

[Snow White]

They are the only 100% professional army in the books. They have absolute obedience. They have been trained in every aspect of combat. They don't care about rape or plunder. They have almost no emotion.

Don't Dany's reforms imply that they're not quite the army she bought any more? Still formidable, but they don't (IIRC) drink that emotion/pain-killing draught any more. They have more individuality, etc.

[Talleyrand]

Don't Dany's reforms imply that they're not quite the army she bought any more? Still formidable, but they don't (IIRC) drink that emotion/pain-killing draught any more. They have more individuality, etc.

Is this from Dance? 'Cause i don't remember anything like that

[Dremora]

You're all forgetting one thing, while the unsullied are fighting the knights, there will be 3 dragons flying about burning and eating the knights :)

Without the dragons, I don't think the unsullied can really be compared to historic infantry. They are better trained and more disciplined, which I imagine counts for a lot.

[TrueMetis]

Don't Dany's reforms imply that they're not quite the army she bought any more? Still formidable, but they don't (IIRC) drink that emotion/pain-killing draught any more. They have more individuality, etc.

They don't have to drink the pain draught anymore IIRC, it becomes permanent during their training.

You're all forgetting one thing, while the unsullied are fighting the knights, there will be 3 dragons flying about burning and eating the knights :)

Without the dragons, I don't think the unsullied can really be compared to historic infantry. They are better trained and more disciplined, which I imagine counts for a lot.

At this point because of their size the dragons are really more of a symbol, it would take years and a lot of training for them to be useful on the battle field.

[Snow White]

Is this from Dance? 'Cause i don't remember anything like that

No, it happens right after she obtains them. She frees them, allows them to take names, etc.

They don't have to drink the pain draught anymore IIRC, it becomes permanent during their training.

I thought it was a continuous thing, although I'm not sure. The Wiki is unclear on this. They do seem much more individualistic now, like the one who visited whores, e.g., and especially their new commander (Something Flea.)

[Nine of Spades]

Don't Dany's reforms imply that they're not quite the army she bought any more? Still formidable, but they don't (IIRC) drink that emotion/pain-killing draught any more. They have more individuality, etc.

I dont think so. I think the Unsullied understand that discipline is integral to the way they fight, and more then anything pride in how they fight is going to drive them. If they dont lose their discipline, i dont think they will lose any of their fighting acumen.

[Whitering]

Well, they live as soldiers and train every day. They are raised as soldiers so have never known anything else. Most armies, even in today's day and age are made up of ill trained common folk.

In the olden days your army was largely composed of farmers and labourers drafted into action. Even the Seven Kingdoms function in much the same way. The Unsullied would wipe the floor with them and match up okay with other trained warriors. The Dothraki spend a lot of their time raiding ill protected lands and cities, easily routing the few guards. So a lot of their troops have never seen real action and they seem to spend a lot of time drinking and whoring. The Unsullied just train, no drinking, no whoring.

In that regard they are more like the modern special forces who are barracked. So, they are probably right up there as a fighting force, but individually, no greater than any gladiator or knight, or truly experienced Dothraki. Lucky enough for them, they tend not to have to fight individually, so they are pretty darned good.

[Elrick]

I wonder how good they would be against the others... Something tells me that the unsullied would get killed pretty easily.