[Book Spoilers] EP104 Discussion

[GoTreviews]

Sorry to bring the whine about wolves back in the thread, but any one else was disapointed about Tyrion's scene in Winterfell ? I'd thought that'd be our chance at seeing Rickon...

Anyway, that (and the Hound not telling history) set aside, great episode. I'm curious by the way, how do you feel about the characters growing on you, as readers ? While watching The Wire, I remember I took some time to take an interest in some of the secondary characters... having read the books makes it different.

It's obvious that they're trying to put the spotlight on Jaime, but what about the other characters? Can you feel more interest for them as the episodes goes, or do you interest stays like the ones you had after reading the books ?

[Kaitscralt]

Pretty sure they are though...in a couple of the trailers, we see Gregor and the Hound duking it out. :mellow:

Oh. In that case then I am super excited. I've not seen any of those trailers, though I'd like to.

[NW Deserter]

It's obvious that they're trying to put the spotlight on Jaime, but what about the other characters? Can you feel more interest for them as the episodes goes, or do you interest stays like the ones you had after reading the books ?

Actually yes, there are several characters I care more about than the books, including some major ones - Catelyn and Robert, in particular.

The show has also made me like Jory, Ser Jorah, and Ser Thorne far more than in the books. Thorne in particular is an interesting case, as think they've turned a one-dimensional guy who was just "Snow's antagonist" into a more complex, two-dimensional character. I'll need to rewatch to confirm, but on first viewing, the whole table-scrubbing scene with Jon/Sam/Thorne was one of the best of the series so far. Great characterization of all three of those guys.

[Manakhkubar]

All that time wasted that could have been spent on the Tournament and more important scenes:

Either A. Spend time developing the Hound/Sansa scenes correctly.

or B. Introduce R+L storyline more. We need to know about that far more then we do about old dragon skulls or the Greyjoy Rebellion.

That's a joke, I guess?! Okay, the whole Sansador thing might be a "nice" extra characterisation for a minor character (even though it is completely unnecessary for his role), but come on, Lyanna? She has already had much too much screen time by now, and I don't see how she is important at all in the first four books - while the Greyjoys are, and (the) Dragons are and their skulls are going to be shown this very season.

[kungtotte]

Holy shit.

[aariafromarty]

Gregor's shield only had one dog.

[Kaitscralt]

Holy shit.

Was that a good HS or a bad HS?

[NW Deserter]

Holy shit.

Go on... :smileysex:

[kungtotte]

Was that a good HS or a bad HS?

A good one.

Everything in GoT is making me squeal like a little girl over how well they are pulling it off.

[Starkess]

I also have some reservations about the Viserys bathtub scene. It started off as useful and helpful exposition...but when Doreah fired up the hand job and Viserys kept chatting away listing off dragon names, I did this: -_- . Don't get me wrong, Harry Lloyd is absolutely perfect...I'm just convinced that sex and simultaneous dialog is, as a rule, over the top. It's distracting and often silly.

While I agree the scene was too long, I really liked the sex+dialogue here because it seemed to me that Viserys was obviously getting aroused not by Doreah but by thinking about the dragons. WHAT A CREEPER!

[Jaimelan]

I have a question, do you guys suppose that Sansa's "I will never forgive him" (speaking of Ned) is going to be used to excuse her betrayal of him to Cersei?

[Ser Greguh]

Another thing I noticed upon a rewatch: for those worried that The Hound isn't going to be fleshed out for the series because his backstory was given to Littlefinger, I wouldn't despair: Rory McCann is in the opening credits, he's going to get his due.

[kungtotte]

While I agree the scene was too long, I really liked the sex+dialogue here because it seemed to me that Viserys was obviously getting aroused not by Doreah but by thinking about the dragons. WHAT A CREEPER!

Did you hear his voice when he came storming into Dany's tent? Like a spoiled little brat on the verge of tears because he can't have that comic book/toy/candy in the store.

Lloyd is playing Viserys perfectly.

[NW Deserter]

I have a question, do you guys suppose that Sansa's "I will never forgive him" (speaking of Ned) is going to be used to excuse her betrayal of him to Cersei?

Even if they don't do that directly, they're certainly setting Sansa's betrayal up to be very believable, which is a change I appreciate. On my first read, I thought that was a very flimsy plot decision with not much backing, and with an older Sansa in the show it would be even less believable without lines like this.

[Vuron]

Gregor's shield only had one dog.

Yes, it did, but his cloak had all 3. I was confused about that, too.

I hate to comment on how bad Cat screwed up by taking Tyrion because it has been discussed in hundreds of threads, but.... to those commenting that she was using information from one of her oldest and loyal friends (Littlefinger), he specifically mentioned in the last episode that there wasn't enough evidence to accuse Tyrion and that he could simply say that the dagger was stolen. This was simply a matter of her ignoring all logical advice and letting her emotions rule her. Which we've seen is the foundation for her character.

[Trebla]

While I agree the scene was too long, I really liked the sex+dialogue here because it seemed to me that Viserys was obviously getting aroused not by Doreah but by thinking about the dragons. WHAT A CREEPER!

Good point. It's like Aerys getting aroused after he burned Lord Chelsted and he makes a rare visit to Queen Rhaella. Dany was brutally conceived.

[Jaimelan]

I really don't get the continued comments about making characters more sympathetic. How did you guys get through 4 books without learning that every narrator in ASOIAF is unreliable?

Every well-crafted character should be just like a real person... with motivations and reasoning, however flawed, for doing what they do.

Aliser Thorne has ALWAYS been right about Sam, and about the sorry state of the recruits. However, you always read about it tainted through the eyes of Jon and his Stark-ness. We also know that Aliser talks tough, but doesn't actually do anything about it. And sure enough, the show has only shown him directing attacks against Jon, and scolding the recruits, but never actually TEACHING.

Jaime has always been the total package he is in book 3, YOU don't find out about his thoughts and private conversations, but he obviously didn't change his opinion on why he killed Aerys or how people would react or how he felt about Cersei and Tyrion and the Kingsguard. The only change Jaime goes through is realizing that Cersei doesn't actually love him the way he loves her. And that he comes to respect Brienne. And you know what? If he had to push an 7 year old out a window to save Brienne, he would.

You can argue that part of the fun/gimmick of the books is the unreliable narrator, and that is lost on the show to a certain extent, and you may be right, but there is NO WAY to film the POVs from the book.

[Jaimelan]

I'd never thought of it that way, but you are absolutely right.

[The Warmth of Winter]

Wow, pretty awesome episode actually. I loved the way they showed Ser Hugh dying all bloody. It was a nice contrast to all the grandeur and, I assume, a bit of an awakening to non-readers who are watching the show. It was a long time since the last gory scene so it was nicely timed. I could have used a bit more action on Sansa's reaction, but hey it was ok.

I liked that Theon finally got some screen time. I loved Arya's scene along with Tyrion's scene. There was a nice build-up between Jaime and Jory (although, I don't think his name was ever mentioned) and the dream sequence was awesome. I did mislike Littlefinger delivering Sandor's lines but hopefully they will still put some effort into their meeting and relationship. The tourney was a bit underwhelming, but I guess they can still make up for it since there's more epic stuff to come.

Something which was really weird, though, was the scene before Sam is beat up for the first time. The guy who later hits him, stands with his sword behind his back and along his shoulders and actually flexes the sword! WTF? Are you supposed to be able to do that with a real blade?

I just sat there staring (he did it for quite some time, too) and thought:

"Rubber, rubber, rubber, rubber sword, rubber sword, rubber, rubber, it's made of rubber..." :shocked:

[Jaimelan]

For doing exactly what she did.

What is the best case for capturing Tyrion atm? She takes him to the Vale, he is tried and convicted and killed. Yet convicted on what evidence? Off Petyr saying it was Tyrion's dagger? Which even if it was Tyrion's dagger, still doesn't prove a damn thing, since he could have given it away or it might have been stolen. What was his motivation to do so? Again she has no idea of the motivation either.

So in the best case he gets convicted and killed off shoddy evidence in a trial that no one outside of Stark loyalists will accept, and still no one would know why he did it. This would clearly put them at the brink of war with the Lannisters even if Ned could get Robert to stop an actual war.

Yet all that is the BEST CASE scenario, if he is convicted and Ned/Robert stop a full-blown war. Obviously way worse things happen. She was more than a bloody moron. I mean honestly, how did she think this was going to work out well at all is beyond me.