[SPOILERS] New POV Revealed

[Arataniello]

Valmy. I love your avatar!

[Jon Blackfyre]

In regards to the Ironborn chapters:

In AGOT almost all of the central characters (barring Dany) started their journey at Winterfell and from that castle the story expanded with each of the PoVs heading their own story in their own location. It is true that some of the viewpoints were clustered together, but in the main they each showed a different facet of a location. An example here is Tyrion and Catelyn at the Eyrie, where two characters have a very different experience of the same location. If Nagga's cradle is the AFFC equivalent of Winterfell, we can expect the story of the characters to expand.

This is what we are seeing, Euron's election at the Kingsmoot is the catalyst that causes all of the Ironborn characters; Aeron, Asha and Victarion to diverge once again. I think it is important to give these characters their own personality and motivations. If Quentyn, Victarion and the rest of them all arrive at Dany without any idea of their intention or what is motivating them then there is a lot of exposition required when the characters arrive. Giving us a window in to the psyche of these characters allows GRRM to retain the dramatic tension of the story.

Equally, I would be very surprised if Asha doesn't have at least 5 chapters across the two books. Similarly, looking at Quentyn's first chapter - it doesn't really go anywhere, he is going to have more chapters in his journey to Dany. I think the size of ADWD is going to help develop the bit part viewpoints.

Thank you Loras for making some sense. I see all these post about "Why should I care about the Greyjoys?" "what's the purpose of their story?" "it didn't do anything to advance the story..."

Stories have arcs, and I'm not sure if you've noticed, but the Ned/Robb/Catelyn arc is dead. The War of the 5 Kings is dead. AFFC is the beginning of a new arc in the story, or more so the bridge between the first three books and the last 3. ADWD will most likely be the same, but it will house more of the characters that have been around since the beginning.

If you can say that after 3 chapters of Tyrion or Jon you cared about them so much that you didn't want any other new POV's to come around because their story line wouldn't be as important you are either lying or way to easy to please.

I for one enjoyed AFFC and the Greyjoy chapters, as well as the Dorne chapters. But I'm not going to say they are the best POVS of the whole story, the same way i wouldn't have said Tyrion was one of my favorite characters 300 pages into AGOT.

Lots of people from the first 3 books are dead. If Martin left it to the POV's that started in AGOT we would only have the story told from Jon, Dany, Tryion, Arya, Bran and Sansa. I am sorry but the story is much to big for that. It grows in the telling.

Just because AFFC is the first time we've really gotten to see into the minds of the true Ironborn, not counting Theon who spent most of his life in the greenlands, doesn't mean further down the road we won't become attached to those characters as well because the are featured more prominently.

For example, say the story went like this through the first 3 books. Ned Stark has a bastard named Jon Snow that goes to serve on the Wall.... and no Jon POV's and all of a sudden, JOn POV as LC of the Nights Watch. Pretty stupid huh? There is most likely going to be a part to play for the Ironborn in the future, and without fleshing out the characters, when it comes time to care about them we won't.

It's been 11 years since the fan favorites have had POV's, it doesn't mean the POV's in between won't take the places of the people we lost to Martin's maniacal will to kill. I for one am not going to bad mouth characters we just met because I don't like them as much as I like Ned, or Robb, who we have tons of chapters worth or writing to get attached to them by.

[Valmy]

Valmy. I love your avatar!

Thanks ^_^

I didn't make it myself though. Wish I was that clever.

[Thefalconemperor]

The Greyoys seem to inspire a general dislike in people. It happens often with writer darlings outside the protagonists or even villains.

The poorest and most barbaric realm in the seven kingdoms (and that does not help to earn symphathy by any means) suddenly got Theon, Asha, Aeron and Victarion as POVs and Euron as a very relevant character. You can almost hear GRRM in the background saying like "hey, aren't they awesome?".

[Phostopheles]

The Greyoys seem to inspire a general dislike in people. It happens often with writer darlings outside the protagonists or even villains.

The poorest and most barbaric realm in the seven kingdoms (and that does not help to earn symphathy by any means) suddenly got Theon, Asha, Aeron and Victarion as POVs and Euron as a very relevant character. You can almost hear GRRM in the background saying like "hey, aren't they awesome?".

To be fair, we've also had three guest POVs from the Martells (Areo, Arys, and Arienne), with the addition of a fourth in DwD (Quentyn). Both houses are relatively poor and aloof from the rest of Westeros, and both are trying to throw their lots in for a chance at the crown. I don't see either as "favoritism" on the part of Martin. If anything, Martin shows too much favoritism for the Starks, and to a lesser extent the Lannisters and Baratheons. And yes, as a result of the guest chapters, I do find the Martells and Greyjoys significantly more interesting, and look forward to seeing those characters fleshed out further. Now, all I need to be completely satisfied are some perspectives from Highgarden...

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Are we suppose to care about them? Do we get these POV's for reasons other then "They're there and nobody else is"?

Of course. Why is GRRM including information about Aeron's guilt over Urri's death, except to get us to understand how his mind works? Or that scene with Asha and Tris Botley? That material doesn't serve a plot function. It exists to make the characters human, i.e., to make the reader care about them. Obviously that didn't work for you, and I'm not saying that it should have--but the idea that GRRM just picked four random people because they happened to be in the right place at the right time and left it at that is ridiculous.

And speaking only for myself, Asha's a very sympathetic character.

-------

It's not like we need povs to get news of the realm, and if Euron and Victarion are going to interact with Dany we can get that interaction when they talk with Dany. If Asha's going to rescue Theon we can get that interaction then as well.

That's like saying that you don't need more than a sentence about the rift between Robb and the Freys, just jump to the Red Wedding. Or that a couple of words about Tyrion and Tywin not being on good terms would have been enough, let's just see Tywin get shot on the privy. All the big moments in the series have been preceded by a large amount of careful set-up; a version of ASOIAF that was just the high points would probably be incoherent.

I suppose that one could say that we could hear about all this going on, rather than seeing it for ourselves. But I don't see how chapters of Cersei passively receiving reports about the ironborn (or something) would have been an improvement.

[Kalbear]

That's like saying that you don't need more than a sentence about the rift between Robb and the Freys, just jump to the Red Wedding. Or that a couple of words about Tyrion and Tywin not being on good terms would have been enough, let's just see Tywin get shot on the privy. All the big moments in the series have been preceded by a large amount of careful set-up; a version of ASOIAF that was just the high points would probably be incoherent.

No, it's not. For starters we basically got just a few sentences about Robb's rift with the Freys until the Red Wedding. But the rest, for better or worse: that's what we've been invested in.

Put it another way: every chapter devoted to the Greyjoys is a chapter that could have been Arya's, or Sam's, or Sansa, or Jaime. I know which I'd prefer to see. Obviously others differ and to some the Greyjoys are really awesome; to me, they remind me of the absurdity of allowing a culture which thrives on raping and looting to be kept alive and unbowed.

[Elrick]

I can understand why some may have a problem with greyjoys but I think that they are going to be taking a more important part in the incoming books. They aren't as foreign to me as Dany as at least they are involved in Westros politics while Dany is invading nations that I don't care that much about. Sure she maybe the main char in the series but man she's annoying with her self rightiousness and belief that she's so superior to everyone else.

She talks about usurpers and yet she does the very same things that she's mad at Robert for doing.

[Ser Greguh]

People definitely whine too much.

[Casso King of Seals]

Put it another way: every chapter devoted to the Greyjoys is a chapter that could have been Arya's, or Sam's, or Sansa

Oh MAN, more Sam or Sansa chapters? You DO raise a good point. Thank you, Greyjoys!

[KyleLitke]

Putting this here since the discussion has gone to other PoV characters anyway and I can't start a new thread. It's a spoiler thread in a spoiler forum so I assume it's safe to post them.

GRRM's Not A Blog has another update. There are apparently 4 new PoV characters, and 16 total.

Also, Sansa, Sam, Aeron Damphair, Arianne, and Brienne do not have chapters in Dance (the last one is tough for anyone waiting to see what happens with her storyline there, if anything). I guess every other former PoV character living has at least one chapter...he specifically names Jaime and Cersei as having chapters, but not a lot. He also specifically names Arya and Bran. Dany, Tyrion, and Jon have the majority of chapters (35 out of 73), and it looks like the 4th most chapters goes to Theon (he doesn't name him but says the next most belong to "an old PoV character who has been missing for a couple of books, but now returns to us...rather the worse for wear").

He also says there are two Dornish PoV's...one old, one new. I suppose the new one is Quentyn (It would depend on whether he means "Dornish" as in the character is from Dorne, or a PoV that actually takes place in Dorne, I assume it's the former). Does that make the other one Areo? It's slipping my mind whether we got Dornish PoV's in Feast other than Arianne and Areo, but I don't recall any, so it would have to be him. Interesting, I assumed if Arianne had been bumped we wouldn't actually see Dorne itself again this book. I wonder if it will deal with Balon Swann?

[georgeforeman]

edit: For some reason, I always forget that Theon's cliffhanger is in Clash and not Storm. This makes 1,000,000x more sense than the other thing.

[Cairodin]

So today George posted a new blog that revealed there would be 16 PoV characters in ADWD, not including prologue and epilogue.

Here's the list I deduced from what he said:

1. Jon

2. Dany

3. Tyrion

4. Reek/Theon

5. Bran

6. Arya

7. Davos

8. Asha

9. Victarion

10. Cersei

11. Jaime

12. Areo Hotah or Arys Oakheart (he said "Dornish" so I think Areo is the safer bet)

13. Barristan

14. Melisandre

15. Quentyn

16. A completely new character that hasn't been established yet (probably in Meereen)

Most of that was already in Werthead's thread in the General forum, but the AFFC PoVs need to be added.

[Garlan the Gallant]

So what's left? Plenty. A huge book, just a hair shorter than A STORM OF SWORDS, as I said. The final count shows that we've got 73 chapters, told through the eyes of (gulp) sixteen different viewpoint characters. I could tell you who they are, but then I'd have to kill you.

Actually, though, it might be easier to tell you who they aren't. Sansa, Sam, Aeron Damphair, Arianne, and Brienne have no chapters in A DANCE WITH DRAGONS. Several of those characters had chapters written, completed, and polished that have been moved into THE WINDS OF WINTER. Part of that editorial process I mentioned up above.

Back when I split A FEAST FOR CROWS into two books, I said in my infamous afterword, "Meanwhile, Back at the Wall..." that Tyrion, Dany, and Jon Snow would be back in the next book, and so they are. Those three characters dominate A DANCE WITH DRAGONS. Out of 73 chapters, 35 concern their exploits; sixteen viewpoints, aye, but just three of them make up almost half of the book. The next largest chunk o' chapters belongs to an old POV character who has been missing for a couple of books, but now returns to us... rather the worse for wear.

Yes, some of the characters who were featured as POVs in A FEAST FOR CROWS will reappear, since the timeframe covered by DANCE extends well beyond that of FEAST. Tyrion is not the only Lannister with a viewpoint. Cersei and Jaime will have chapters as well, though... be warned... not a lot of them. Arya is also on hand. And we'll check in with Bran and his companions as well, on their long cold trek beyond the Wall. There are two Dornish POVs (one old, one new), and three ironborn(all previous POVs).

And there are some new viewpoint characters. Some of them are new CHARACTERS, introduced for the first time in this book. Others are established characters, but new VIEWPOINTS; they have been around, but you've never gone inside their heads before. Once, a few years back, I said that I only meant to introduce one new viewpoint character in the book. Which just goes to show why I should never sound off about these things before the book is done. In the end, I wound up with.... hmmm, let me count 'em... one, two, three... ah... FOUR new viewpoint characters. And that doesn't even include the Prologue and Epilogue. So...

What I can say? At least part of the infamous Meereenese knot was a viewpoint problem. (Not all of it, no, a lot had to do with chronology and causation, but some of it was a POV question). Introducing a new POV helped me resolve those problems, and made for a better book. And in the end, making a better book trumps all other concerns.

POV mentioned in this post that will be in aDwD:

1. Tyrion "Kinslayer" Lannister

2. Queen Cersei Lannister

3. Ser Jaime "Kingslayer" Lannister

4. Arya Stark

5. Bran Stark

6. Lord Commander Jon Snow

7. Daenerys "Stormborn" Targaryen

8. Ser Davos "The Onion Knight" Seaworth

9. Dornish POV #1

10. Dornish POV #2

11. Ironborn POV #1

12. Ironborn POV #2

13. Ironborn POV #3

14. NEW POV #1

15. NEW POV #2

16. NEW POV #3

And that doesn't even include the Prologue and Epilogue.

1. Prologue POV (confirmed different from the above)

2. Epilogue POV (confirmed different from the above)

Tyrion "Kinslayer" Lannister + Daenerys "Stormborn" Targaryen + Lord Commander Jon Snow = 1/3 of aDwD (around 500 pages)

Ironborn POV #1 = Theon "Reek" Greyjoy

Ironborn POV #2 = Asha Greyjoy

Ironborn POV #3 = Victarion Greyjoy

Dornish POV #1 = Quentyn Martell

Dornish POV #2 = ?

NEW POV #1 = Ser Barristan "The Bold" Selmy

NEW POV #2 = Melisandre of Asshai

NEW POV #3 = ?

Prologue POV = Varamyr Sixskins

Epilogue POV = ?

Unknown POV's:

1. Dornish POV #2

2. NEW POV #3

3. Epilogue POV

Not in aDwD:

1. Sansa Stark

2. Brienne "The Beauty" of Tarth

3. Samwell Tarly

4. Aeron "Damphair" Greyjoy

5. Arianne Martell

My questions:

1. Being that the only Dornish POV's that we have had are Arianne Martell and Areo Hotah and that the Dornish POV is not included in the NEW POV section, is this POV Areo Hotah? (beat me to the punch)

2. Who do you believe is the NEW POV #3?

3. The epilogue character is not one of the other 16 characters and is not the prologue character. Does this mean that Barristan might survive? Though, I suppose he could die during his POV chapters.

[Dunknegg]

12. Areo Hotah or Arys Oakheart (he said "Dornish" so I think Areo is the safer bet)

13. Barristan

14. Melisandre

15. Quentyn

16. A completely new character that hasn't been established yet (probably in Meereen)

RE #12...Areo made sure that Arys won't be a point of view.

I have a suspicion that the only other Dornish viewpoint would be Sarella(something should updated Oldtown if Sam doesn't) although Doran Martell might be an option if Areo isn't the 2nd Dornish viewpoint.

One thought on #16 could be Marwyn who was headed to find Dany in Mereen?

He says "And there are some new viewpoint characters. Some of them are new CHARACTERS, introduced for the first time in this book. Others are established characters, but new VIEWPOINTS; they have been around, but you've never gone inside their heads before." I read that to mean two of each since they are plural. Quentyn is the only new character you have listed above introduced for the first time. Barristan and Melisandre satisfy those that have been around.

Varamyr is the prologue. The epilogue is none of the above. It appears the wench is dead, but is it just assumed or is there a POV to confirm.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Put it another way: every chapter devoted to the Greyjoys is a chapter that could have been Arya's, or Sam's, or Sansa, or Jaime. I know which I'd prefer to see.

I'd like to see evidence of that. GRRM said while he was writing AFFC that he included the Greyjoy POVs because he couldn't think of a way to get the same material through existing POVs. It seems to me that if the Greyjoy chapters didn't exist, then AFFC would be five chapters shorter.

And you didn't really respond to my point: whether or not the ironborn material was appealing to you, it was necessary for the story and the series would have been harmed by taking it out. The series doesn't just drop us in at the high point, because the story wouldn't work as well that way.

The set up for the Red Wedding is a good example. You described it as a few sentences, but GRRM devotes a lot more time than that. GRRM spends a whole chapter setting up Walder Frey and his opportunism in AGOT. The rift gets introduced in the last Arya chapter in ACOK and the first Catelyn chapter in ASOS. In Catelyn II (in ASOS), GRRM introduces the Westerlings and explains the rift for the first time; Catelyn IV (Hoster's funeral) is mostly about Robb negotiating with the Freys; and Catelyn V is a mixture of foreshadowing and a red herring (Robb's plan to attack Moat Cailin) designed to lead the reader to believe that Robb's going to survive. And that's not to mention Jaime's tete-a-tete with Roose Bolton and the scattered references to Tywin's "important letters," the various prophecies and Sandor talking about Edmure's "bloody wedding." All this material is essential to make the Red Wedding work--to make it seem plausible; to establish what it means for the story; and to give it the emotional power that it has--so that it doesn't seem like GRRM just dropped a bridge on Robb and called it a day.

Now, we don't know what's going to happen between the ironborn and Daenerys at Meereen. It could be that I'm wrong, that their part of the storyline is going to fizzle in ADWD and all this build-up is going to be for nothing. We don't know that at the moment. But given that GRRM has clearly established that this is relevant to Dany's invasion, one of the major storylines of the series, I don't see on what basis you can say that the ironborn chapters are unnecessary.

[Roughspun]

At least part of the infamous Meereenese knot was a viewpoint problem. […] Introducing a new POV helped me resolve those problems, and made for a better book.

Together with GRRM’s earlier statement to the effect that the new POV character is a sharp sword to hack at the Meereenese knot makes it virtually certain that we’re talking about Barristan.

I think this lends some support to my suspicion that Dany will be away from Meereen in aDwD for some period of time, possibly for the punitive expedition to Vaes Dothrak? (A very tentative suggestion.) In my opinion, it’s quite conceivable that Dany would leave Barristan in command if she were to leave Meereen.

Just a suggestion what it might be about – crow and kraken might arrive during Dany’s absence, and have a go at the dragons (or one of them). Having no POV at hand to show this (Tyrion arrives after the ironborn, if Quaithe’s prophecy is still up to date) would be a major narrative problem: to just tell this in retrospect would be very unsatisfying.

[Jon Blackfyre]

Put it another way: every chapter devoted to the Greyjoys is a chapter that could have been Arya's, or Sam's, or Sansa, or Jaime.

You are seriously forgetting about story pacing. ADWD runs alongside of AFFC and then past it as well. If all the Ironborn chapters were removed to add in more Arya, Sam, Sansa, Jamie or any other POVs chapters their story would be ahead of where it should be and not in line with the rest of the series. Either that or it would be chapters full of useless info... "Jamie woke up today, sparred with Payne, took a dump and went to bed." would not be better than learning about the Greyjoy perspective in my opinion.

[Ran]

Just to say, I'm with Harry on this. I do not see what kind of chain of logic leads from "fewer Greyjoy chapters I dislike" to "more chapters I like". Occam's Razor would suggest that if those Greyjoy chapters were unnecessary, George wouldn't have written them, and rather than going, "Huh, I have quota for 5 more chapters," he'd instead go, "Well, that's me done" since one presumes all the other POVs are left off at a point that he's pleased to leave them off at.

[LadyMary]

I guess for me I have a problem with the Greyjoys (other than Theon, oddly enough) because there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of need for them. I'm not sure what Victarion's chapter does other than illustrate him being a badass. I don't know why we need to see Aeron in the flesh, or even the kingsmoot. It's not like we need povs to get news of the realm, and if Euron and Victarion are going to interact with Dany we can get that interaction when they talk with Dany. If Asha's going to rescue Theon we can get that interaction then as well.

The biggest problem I have with the disparate PoVs is that they spread focus and dilute characterization for me personally. It's similar to my distaste for the Dany chapters; every Dany chapter is a chapter AWAY from the real story. And sure, I like Dany and I like her story, but it's like reading another book entirely. It's like channelsurfing away from the main program against your will. The Greyjoys felt way too much like that for me; I still don't know why we saw so much of them given how weak they really are.

(emphasis mine) This.

It's not so much the number of POVs that matters to me, it's the purpose. The Greyjoy/Ironborn chapters seem too numerous for such little payoff in terms of plot advancement of the main storylines (and I don't really care about any of them). If it's necessary to establish Theon/Victarian/Asha as relevant to what's happening in the rest of Westeros or with Dany in the East, it could have been done without the Aeron POV or superfluous (IMO) chapters about the Kingsmoot. I don't see Euron or any other Ironman sitting on the Iron Throne because they are pirates, and what they want from occupying the North is still not clear to me (I'm with Asha on that one). We read about Balon's death after the fact and that was fine, and Robb set up the power struggle in his recollections of Theon's comments. They could have done likewise with the Ironborn power struggles without extra chapters devoted to Ironborn religion and tradition which were distractions that don't seem to relate to the core story but just take up time and space. A passing reference to the Kingsmoot and the actions of the losers would set up Victarian setting sail for Dany. Likewise, Brienne is just on a wild goose chase. I sympathize with her but I'm not really feeling her story anymore. Maybe an offhand reference from some passing knight about a big woman in mail would have been enough to let us know she was still searching. Unless there is some relevance to her character, I think she's long past serving a purpose and let her rest in peace. As for Dorne, I felt the Arys chapters were kind of pointless but I love the little nuggets of information that are buried in the interactions between Ariane and Prince Doran that show him to be a more patient player in the game of thrones than some of the others.

Meanwhile, back in Essos... it's obvious with the birth of three dragons that Dany's story will be important later but at the monent she's stuck in a holding pattern and that's been frustrating. I'm looking forward to seeing the convergence of characters on their way to court Dany and hoping that we get some movement back to Westeros with her dragons. I speculate that Victarion will provide some ships to transport Dany's army.

I'm looking forward to progress on the Wall, on Dany's journey back the Westeros and the ongoing battle for the Iron Throne.