[Book Spoilers] Renly and Loras

[Carldog]

Don't care about the gay thing... It is what it is.

The manner in which Renly and Loras are being portrade is the sad part. Even worse is the portral of the hound.

[redwinger]

Don't care about the gay thing... It is what it is.

The manner in which Renly and Loras are being portrade is the sad part. Even worse is the portral of the hound.

+1

[Talan Snow]

I thought the Loras/Renly thing was pretty cool. Equal opportunity after all....if they're going to show Cersei/Jaime and Theon/prostitute then it'd be lame for them to skip this.

I don't have a problem with them showing sex. Sex is a natural part of the human condition. Big deal. I laugh at the fact that some people on here complain about HBO showing sex but apparently they don't have a problem with HBO showing beheadings, etc.

[banditry]

You are implying that David and Dan are somehow twisting Martin's work into something that it isn't. When in actuality all they did was show us a scene that Martin only referenced. This is not about D&D thinking they could surpass Martin's work or make it better, this is about translating a written medium into a visual one, and the best way to get information across in a TV show or a movie is toshow us, not tell us.

Honestly I actually do think that D&D are improving the telling of the story with their additional scenes, especially for non-reading viewers. With the Renly/Loras scene they are setting the stage for what Renly chooses to do once Robert dies. Otherwise many viewers who haven't read the books would be confused about why Renly would try to take the throne away from his brother who is the rightful heir (when Loras tells Renly that people love him and Stannis has the personality of a lobster), and what significance being married into the Tyrell family holds (when Loras tells Renly that Highgarden has more gold than he does).

So really I do not understand this idea that they are trying to change perfection. Because first of all, they aren't trying to "write better than" Martin but are trying to tell the story through a different medium for different viewers. I have always been bothered by people who want the books exactly translated onto the screen, because it is never going to happen, changes must be made. And second, so far, and especially in the latest episode, the additional scenes are examples of scenes that could absolutely have taken place in the books but we just didn't get the chance to see them.

Nailed it. Well-said.

[Cereal Forel]

I give up. I don't know how you manage to ignore what I wrote, when it was plain and clear as day.

Obviously it isn't or else you wouldn't have multiple people bringing it up :fencing:

[Morrigan]

Well then, perhaps you'd be so gracious as to highlight which part of "some changes are good, others are bad" you find so confusing? :bang:

[Elrick]

I actually think that Loras was acting under his family orders. The Tyrells are ambitious and I believe hate the Lannisters, thus they are behind whispering into Renly's ear.

[Abaddon]

Well then, perhaps you'd be so gracious as to highlight which part of "some changes are good, others are bad" you find so confusing? :bang:

It's the implied (and in some of your posts not implied) "I'm right and the arbiter of what is good and what is bad and you're wrong, nyah" subtext that's leaking through quite clearly. Whether you are intending to imply it or not, it's there, for me at least.

For everyone else; GRRM loves the adaptation, and said that he expects 95% of his fan base to love it as well. It's not surprising to see the other 5% heavily represented here, is it? Everyone has their opinions, and I am not sharing this particular opinion at all, but it's been expressed many times over now and we can all move on, right?

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

Morrigan:

For me, the implication is coming across because -- despite your one statement about how some changes are necessary (which, btw, is not the same as 'good'), which itself I read as implying that only a few changes were actually necessary -- you had two quotes that can basically be summed up as "Don't you dare change what GRRM wrote!", each of which you agreed with.

[Starchaser]

Tyrion admits early in aCoK to fearing Stannis more than Renly and all his troops. Can anyone give me one source of information on why you think Renly is supposed to be heroic? The show has nailed his personality. It seems Renly was good at not only making his own people believe in him for no good reason, but you all as well.

[Bronn Stone]

Way too much gayness. If you have to "shout it out" with a scene like that it kinda looses its revelation power that they are gay. That scene could have been 15 seconds. Watching Renly getting shaved and then getting a bj was a bunch of crap.

TONIGHT WE BROUGHT YOU CRAP....at least for 3 minutes

rest of the episode was just as awesome as the first 4, so i cant complain more than that.

I would be very interested to see how you could establish all the facts that were established in that scene in fifteen seconds.

Renly and Loras have a romantic relationship

Renly and Loras have a sexual relationship

Renly is willing to accede to Loras on grooming matters even when he finds them distasteful

Robert is not serious about beheading Lord Eddard - he loves him too much and his rage will pass

Renly envies the close relationship Eddard has with Robert and yearns for acceptance from his older brothers

Renly feels Robert and Stannis hold him in contempt because he's never fought a war

Though it had not been mentioned elsewhere, there was a melee and some boy lost an eye

Renly gets queasy at the sight of dismembered eyes and blood

Loras believes he is skilled at the sword because he practices at it

Renly does not believe he'd ever be good even if he practiced

Loras thinks Renly is lazy

Robert loves Cersei's money, if not the queen herself and this is the subject of gossip

Loras's family is very rich, if not as rich as the Lannisters

Renly is not particularly wealthy

Robert wants to take Renly hunting, the prospects of which do not thrill Renly

Loras wants Renly to be King and has given the matter some serious thought

Renly is popular with the people, according to Loras

Loras believes bloodshed would inevitably be part of the process and is willing to shed some blood to achieve his goals

I take it back. I do NOT want to see someone trying to convey all that information in a fifteen second scene. It would be a travesty.

[Morrigan]

Morrigan:

For me, the implication is coming across because -- despite your one statement about how some changes are necessary (which, btw, is not the same as 'good'),

I also said that some of the changes were good. For example, I liked the added "friendship/bonding" scene with Jon and Sam, and I like how they gave Donal Noye's lines to Tyrion when he chastises Jon (nothing against Noye but it makes perfect sense for TV, a smart change). The scene with Tyrion and Theon was great, too. The "dead", "dead, "very dead" additions with Syrio was perfect and very in-character. I also liked how Arya tried to recap the exchange between Varys and Illyrio to Ned. I could go on.

which itself I read as implying that only a few changes were actually necessary -- you had two quotes that can basically be summed up as "Don't you dare change what GRRM wrote!", each of which you agreed with.

And then you have some changes that are unnecessary, scenes that *could* have been taken as-is from the novel but weren't, and the reasons they weren't is far from apparent (at times it seems completely random, even). I could give examples, but since this thread is about Renly, I can focus on that one: why make Renly an insecure, whiny "eww, blood!" pansy? In the book, Renly is no hardass warrior, but he's a good leader, he's ambitious, he's charismatic, and he's not afraid to go to war. I don't see how that could translate to a "wah wah my brothers are big meanies" and "I vomit at the sight of blood" kind of whelp. There is no reason for this change from GRRM's characterization, none. They could have easily have the rest of the scene work without this, but they chose to make Renly less likeable and more insecure because...? Go figure.

The whole "you wrote Troy stfu" jab is just that, a jab. Obviously they do have to change stuff, but when they keep scenes more or less intact but remove some of the more memorable lines (the direwolves scene comes to mind), or when they add necessary scenes but change the characterizations for no reason, then yeah, I do wonder at how GRRM (or better writers) would have done it if he had written the episode. I'm actually very curious to see episode 8, the one GRRM wrote.

[Xenophon]

There is no reason for this change from GRRM's characterization, none. They could have easily have the rest of the scene work without this, but they chose to make Renly less likeable and more insecure because...?

Maybe I'm having trouble seeing your point since I don't find Renly at all unlikable. I don't really understand what you mean when you there is no reason for this change. Off the top of my head, I can think of many reasons why they might want to make such a change to Renly's character (to distinguish him more from Robert, to make him more a pawn of the Tyrell's, to contrast a potential gentle/beloved ruler to Robert's fear and blood speech).

But I suspect that's not what you had in mind. Are you objecting to any changes in the characters that are not absolutely necessary (loosely speaking)? Do you also dislike the changes to Cersei?

[Morrigan]

Renly came across as whiny, insecure and malleable in that scene. I really can't reconcile that with the Renly from the book (and yes I'm aware that how he behaves in private wouldn't be the same, but that's still a drastic change), but hopefully he'll man up a bit in later episodes. And those changes aren't necessary to contrast him from Robert, he was already pretty different, and from speaking with various other people I know I'm not the only one who's baffled at the changes to Renly.

Are you objecting to any changes in the characters that are not absolutely necessary (loosely speaking)?

Not inherently so. Sam, for example, is a bit different (the Sam from the book wouldn't start talking about sex with Jon :lol:), but I have no objections whatsoever to that, because the scene is well-written and helps establish their friendship.

Do you also dislike the changes to Cersei?

I do. In fact it's probably what has annoyed me the most so far. I am guessing they just want to make her more sympathetic somehow, but I really don't see why. They can still surprise me if they reveal she murdered that baby, but based on video interviews that seems to be unlikely.

[Lord Varys]

I'm pretty sure Renly will be 'Renly' again in season 2. We never saw the funny, peach-eating, joking, and charismatic Renly in AGoT. He will find his confidence after Robert's death. I doubt we'll see him again in season 1 after he flees KL, but when Mace and Loras get him to crown himself, and when all all the Lords of the Reach and the Stormlands declare for him, he won't be insecure anymore. He will be a confident leader, who most likely is going to see himself as the man destined to continue the Baratheon legacy.

Catelyn is not going to treat with a King who has self-doubts, and Stannis' shadow is not going to slay a younger brother who secretly did not want to wear that crown of his. Else he would not have taken it on, and he would not have kept it on his head during/after his parley with Stannis, if he was still doubting himself.

Yes, Renly is technically an average jouster who likes enter the lists and all. But that's not his personality. GRRM actually did not give us much/any insight into him besides 'Renly is copper' (which actually means you can pretty much ignore Renly) from Donal Noye, and that he is supposed to have declared himself King on a whim, because he always liked to pretend he was somebody else ('the Raingod', for instance).

That's not much characterization, to be true. The series actually gives us an explanation why Renly would want to be King and, more importantly, shows us that he did not always wanted to usurp Stannis or humiliate his older brother.

I'm pretty sure Renly is going show us the stuff he's made of in the next two episodes, gradually becoming a man who really starts to believe that he could be able to make himself King. And then King Renly in season 2 might be a similar surprise. Just as Robb has to settle into his role as King, Renly is facing a similar challenge, and he will get rid of his self doubts offscreen, and come back as the King we want him to be.

[wijse]

Well personally i think they have ruined Loras the Knight of the Flower for the rest of the series. Now he will be known as the cock sucking guy for the rest of the series. They ruined the scene between Loras and Renly and all the information given is lost because the cock sucking takes the focus.

There are many ways they could have shown the homosexual relationship between Renly and Loras and a cock sucking scene is not one of them.

[Lord of Brewtown]

But the actual quote from Cersei in AFFC makes it clear she DID know Renly was gay:

She just figured, as has already been stated, that Renly would "do his duty" and consummate the marriage, perhaps try to produce an heir if he's going to be king. It was a reasonable assumption for her to make, even understanding Renly's preferences. My brother is gay, but he was married twice and fathered 4 children before deciding to come out of the closet to our family.

The only real reason so many people were surprised by Renly and Loras is that neither of them was a POV character, so we never got into either of their heads or got to spend any "alone time" with them in the novels. Their relationship was perceived as subtle because they weren't hanging on one another in public, and people didn't gossip about them incessantly as if it was something shocking.

However, I do agree that, while I like Gethin Anthony well enough, I'm not 100% behind the decision to change Renly from the book portrayal. I'm enjoying the show too much to let that nit-pick ruin it for me, though. And I do love the fact that they're setting up Renly's decision to claim the throne in ACOK. It'll make so much more sense this way. :)

Agree with this 100%. I wish they hadn't made Renly so wimpy - but it's not going to ruin the series for me.

I always got the impression that Loras was definitely gay, and that they were 'an item'; but, that even though Renly preferred men, he might go both ways & wouldn't shy away from producing an heir if necessary.

I can't remember the passage, but doesn't some character comment on or think about rumors of 'wild parties' thrown by Renly at Storm's End (Cressen maybe, or a Cat chapter)?

[Hooplehead]

I don't understand all of the hand-wringing over the TV portrayal of Renly. He's a pretty minor character in the books, who we really don't even see that much. He's really there to facilitate the plot, with the whole War of 5 Kings bit.

Sure, I liked his character in the book. He was fun, and I wish there had been more of him. But, that really just hammers home the fact that he wasn't there much.

So, if they want to tweak this minor character a bit to suit this slightly different telling of the story on TV, I don't have an issue with that. It doesn't "ruin" anything. It seems to me like this is being done to facilitate an earlier fleshing out of the Tyrells, and maybe show that Loras is a bit of a schemer himself or at least involved in his grandmother's plans. Loras is the one who's going to survive at least into the 5th book (it looks like), so developing him a bit at the expense of a a guy who has a handful of appearances left can't hurt.

[MikeNH]

There are many ways they could have shown the homosexual relationship between Renly and Loras and a cock sucking scene is not one of them.

I'm confused - are you saying that scene did NOT convey that the two of them are in a homosexual relationship?

[Abaddon]

Well personally i think they have ruined Loras the Knight of the Flower for the rest of the series. Now he will be known as the cock sucking guy for the rest of the series.

Fair enough, you will now be known as a homophobe on this board from now on.

They ruined the scene between Loras and Renly and all the information given is lost because the cock sucking takes the focus.

Wait, so a very short bit in a pretty long scene that comes at the end takes the focus? When it isn't even SHOWN? How is that, exactly?

There are many ways they could have shown the homosexual relationship between Renly and Loras and a cock sucking scene is not one of them.

Would you have preferred anal sex?