Varys has brought Shae to Tywin via the secret passageways!

[mormont]

The supposition that because Tywin married his cousin, he'd be 'secretly proud' of his son and daughter sleeping together is one of the more fanciful things I've heard recently. There's a huge difference between cousin marriage and brother/sister incest: there are many societies where the former is legal, virtually none where the latter is. Certainly, Joanna was appalled when she discovered pre-pubescent Jaime and Cersei 'playing' inappropriately, despite (of course) being married to her cousin also: and she clearly believed Tywin would be too, as IIRC she used telling him as a threat to scare the children.

[The Bastard in the North]

I think that those who think Varys knew everything are ascribing Godlike powers to him (omnipontence) when he is after all only a man (very nearly). He didn't know who the dagger belonged to in GoT (I bet Mr Ent says he was pretending not to know). I have a soft spot for Varys in the books as he seems to be a good judge of character. On the surface at least he is fond of Ned and Tyrion whereas he seems to just do enough to keep Cersei on his side. Also, as Varys and Tywin have never been POV characters, we can only guess at their personality traits or extrapolate from other characters opinions. I am inclined to believe that Tywin was a hippocrite who liked a bit of strange on the quiet (anyone in power likes prostitutes in the real world! he was only missing the cocaine...).

This is my first post btw, so be nice! :-) I enjoy these forums immensely - it certainly gives us fans something to read while we are waiting for aDwD!

One thing I wonder though - with the bigger reader theories (R+L=J etc), are people going to be upset if it doesn't go the way they predicted?

I can imagine some posters reading the eventual story and saying "My idea was better!"

[CrypticWeirwood]

Right, but what if Tywin-sleeps (or intends to sleep)- with-Shae aspect is hippodamic to Varys-orchestrated-the-confrontation. For example, he might have planned to allow Tyrion up there only after discovering Tywin has had Shae summoned earlier that day and based on that realized things would get Freudian fast, and so planted the weapons and the poison to encourage the odds of Tyrion catching Tywin with his, er, pants down.

What does being “hippodamic to something” mean? I’ve never heard that word before, even though its related forms do occur in The Dictionary. The most recently given citation for them, however, dates from an 1894.

It seems that a hippodame is someone who tames, breaks in, or trains a horse, from Greek ἱππόδαμος for horse‐trainer. The longer word hippodamist means the same thing as hippodame.

As far as I can tell, the more common — not that it is anything like common, mind you! — corresponding adjectival form is hippodamous, which the OED says means horse‐taming or horse‐breaking. I assume that hippodamous and hippodamic are synonyms.

Are you using hippodamic then to mean that it tames the horse, or that it breaks in the horse? Or that it trains it? Plus, just which element stands for the horse in the narrative here?

Thanks for the new word, but I’m not sure how often I’ll get to use it. However did you become such an hippologist, anyway?

Wait a second. You aren’t, perchance, actually instead here referring to Hippodamia, the ill‐fated queen of Olympia from Greek myth, are you? The one who got abducted by the (hippo‐)centaurs and who was foremother of the House of Atreus, who gave us such winners as Agamemnon and Menelaus? If so, how would that sense of hippodamic fit into all this?

(Please don’t tell me you meant hippodamic as a portmanteau to somehow mean pertaining to a horse‐lady. One language at a time, por favor.)

In any event, color me completely confused as to how it applies here; there’s some metaphor you’re alluding to which is escaping me this early in the morning. Surely, this is a three‐coffee problem if ever there was one!

[Asagrimmr]

Tywin is extremely concerned with appearances. Having a mistress? It does nothing positive for him, and probably does the opposite especially as it'd invite comparisons to his weak father. So if he has an itch he needs to scratch, he does it, but he does it discreetly. No one says he denies himself things... but he's a man of iron discipline, and he indulges only as much as he needs, and no more.

I agree with Tywin being discreet. But I think that "only as much as he needs" is a very grey area. People who are uptight and proper in public tend to be freakier behind closed doors.

[Happy Ent]

[ Varys ] didn't know who the dagger belonged to in GoT (I bet Mr Ent says he was pretending not to know).

I say no such thing.

[Happy Ent]

Hits buzzer

What is orthogonal?

[Datepalm]

Threin lies the key to the hippodamity. It was, I suspect, an entirely incorrect usage on my part though. (Hippodamus of Miletus was a very early greek urban planner, including a thing for streets at right angle grids. A hippodamic street plan is another way of saying an orthogonal one.)

[Happy Ent]

It was, I suspect, an entirely incorrect usage on my part though. (Hippodamus of Miletus was a very early greek urban planner, including a thing for streets at right angle grids. A hippodamic street plan is another way of saying an orthogonal one.)

Well, I love it and promise to use it frequently.

Also, note that this has brought together three arboreal borders. A belated welcome, CrypticWeirwood.

[AvengingAryaFan]

Hits buzzer

What is orthogonal?

Brilliant, Happy Ent! I thought Datepalm's use of hippodamic was beyond obscure.

Also, note that this has brought together three arboreal borders. A belated welcome, CrypticWeirwood.

What? This has brought together the boundaries of three trees? Or did you mean it has joined three well-forested national boundaries?

[Vinterhed]

I think it seems to much of an coincidence that there happened to be a crossbow and arrows in the the room. Remember what Varys does with a cross bow(the same) to Tywins brother later. Varys knew that the imp couldn't defeat his father in hand to hand combat. And would an "honorable knight" like Tywin want lay his hand on a commoners weapon like a cross bow?

[Lady Hodor]

Varys is pretty damn smart (It is known) When it comes to killing, he is very thoughtful and methodical about it all.

He wanted Tywin to die, so that his mastermind plan to put the throne in Prince Aegon's hand would come to pass.

But he could not do it, so he manipulated Tyrion into doing it for him, as he knew how much he loved Shae.

[Vinterhed]

I just reread the chapter. The crossbow is obviously Tywins, but Varies could still be aware of it's existence. The fact that Tywin want's to walk to the chamber to discuss with the imp implies that he is not aware that Shae is there.

[Jon Snow1996]

I believe that this theory is true, for one thing throughout the books it is clear that Tyrion inherited Tywin's traits and character although Tywin is loath to admit it, and in a Feast of Crows Genna Lannister confirms. This being said, i think that George R.R Martin is creating this complex relationship between Father and Son and how although they are the same in nearly every aspect except of course for their looks. I believe that this is the final proof that Tyrion is actually Tywin the second in all but name.

[sskoog]

Martin has as good as confirmed it following HBO's episode 4x10 airing -- well, not explicitly, but, read for yourself:

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/06/16/game-of-thrones-finale-martin/