Mafia Game 79 - Game of Thrones Finale Party!

[House Targaryen]

We interrupt your program to give you an important notification.

Everyone should carefully note the day end timer in my signature. It will not be extended. It is an inconvenient time for the mods, and I am guessing it is also inconvenient for the vast majority of players. Should you decide to use all of the time, one of the EuroMods will post the end of day scene when they get up in the morning. Please remember that regardless of when the scene is posted, the day ends when the timer runs out or when a player has garnered sufficient votes.*

We now return you to your regularly scheduled Real Reality TV Productions, Limited program.

--Seacrest (acting like unJon)

*Including the oddly named player "night", though people do not seem to find him suspicious these days.

[House Clegane]

A rather puzzling speculation. And an idle one. It's also the first time you mention this second master. Pray tell me about him so that I might better serve him!

You should re-read my case, such as it is. Wherein twice I refer you placing Tyrion and Petyr together.

As skillful as I might be, the main problem about your case is that it isn't obvious at all. What you say and what was written just don't match without utterly unsupported leaps of logic.

There such a thing as distancing. Saying one thing while aiding by actions a good symp. And a symp that might get to fill the big shoes would be even a touch more careful.

Had you wanted to discuss Tyrion you should have removed your vote on Ros, which you quickly cast as soon as it seemed the tides of war were unfavorable to her, and asked to discuss Tyrion.

I did not remove my vote, true. But plenty of people were taken my surprise at Jaime's action. But you can't claim I didn't ask to discuss Tyrion. I did. As did Dany, I believe.

You seem to be putting quite a bit of effort into deflecting my poor attempts at logic. If they are so unfounded, my weak arguments should be easily dismissed by all and fail on their own.

And you'll not persuade me by condescending me. Seacrest had multiple errors in that vote count. Players come and go while still doing RL, I don't think it unfair that they rely on the mods to be accurate. Further, I will read my cases as I will, in my own time and come to my own conclusions. If others see the same evidence and come to other conclusions then it is up to other players to judge it as they will. Either way, it is clear that you've been unable to brush off suspicion with a fasle smile.

Now to re-reads.

[House Stokeworth]

Sorry guys. I've been reading the thread all day, but preoccupied by the fact that I was getting my finals result today (I passed :)).

I'm about to go reread day 2; right now I feel that all this Tyrion-Sansa-Renly stuff about Sansa's case on me is a lot of averblown nonsense. I made a joke in day one, Sansa didn't like it. That seems to be all there is to it, and I don't think it makes either of us look suspicious.

That said, I don't like Sansa imputing bad faith to Renly and accusing him of sheeping - it's not very nice and I think it's also stupid - FM sure may follow others opinions but not so blatantly as Renly did

What I did find suspicious about Jorah in my re-read was his attack on Jaime. He points out how Jaime trusts the strong players and attacks Tyrion (a safe target, and one which would allow him to appear original). This may not be an entirely unfair point, but at the same time he makes it Jorah is dropping his case on Daenerys to attack a player who is apparently a rookie. What is more, he's placing a completely useless first vote on a player with a paragraph long sentence. His own actions are vastly more suspicious than what he's accusing Jaime of!

Why so keen to defend Jaime? Why is this a completely useless first vote? I obviously thought it was a good case (and I still do) and it's important to bring in new suspects on day 2. Jaime isn't a rookie - just new to this board, as he said. For what it's worth I do still find Dany suspicious, as I can definitely see how her behaviour fits with an confident FM seeking to remain lynchable enough that it isn't suspicious that they aren't killed (as it would have been if Arya wasn't).

Also, the comment that my own actions are more suspicious than Jaime's is stupid - I can't (and obviously shouldn't) vote for myself, nor can I possibly judge my own suspiciousness. If you find me more suspicious than Jaime fine, but you can hardly expect me to agree.

Is "Symp Hunter" a hidden role given to half the players? I have not seen so much symp talk since, well, ever.

Agreed. I really doubt that master-hunting based on someone being a symp will be fruitful.

[House Yronwood]

I never thought he had a role. I thought he was setting himself up for a possible future claim.

Well, I am very tired of keeping asking you why you thought he was setting himself for a possible future claim. I voted you after you avoided answering this question at least thrice.

[House Thorne]

I really doubt that master-hunting based on someone being a symp will be fruitful.

I disagree, symps know their masters, and that knowing will impact their play. It serves our interest to develop an understanding of the situations which appear to be based on suspicious relationships. That way, if we we're to find say, Varys is guilty, then we could evaluate how they've interacted with others, including who may have been a possible symp, and work from there.

Sorry if this seems kinda scattered, pressed for time right now.

Also, on that note I think I'd like to return to Varys today. I think if Sansa is a symp, he is most likely to be an FM for her.

[House Thorne]

I really doubt that master-hunting based on someone being a symp will be fruitful.

I disagree, symps know their masters, and that knowing will impact their play. It serves our interest to develop an understanding of the situations which appear to be based on suspicious relationships. That way, if we we're to find say, Varys is guilty, then we could evaluate how they've interacted with others, including who may have been a possible symp, and work from there.

Sorry if this seems kinda scattered, pressed for time right now.

Also, on that note I think I'd like to return to Varys today. I think if Sansa is a symp, he is most likely to be an FM for her.

[House Yronwood]

Ok, leaving for about 10 hours,

Definitely will be on around deadline.

[House Targaryen]

It is day 2.

12 players remain: Cersei Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, Eddard Stark, Jaime Lannister, Jorah Mormont, Khal Drogo, Lord Varys, Petyr Baelish, Renly Baratheon, Sansa Stark, Syrio Forel, Tyrion Lannister.

7 votes are needed for a conviction or 6 to go to night.

3 votes for Lord Varys (Cersei Lannister, Petyr Baelish, Renly Baratheon)

2 votes for Jorah Mormont (Syrio Forel, Sansa Stark)

2 votes for Petyr Baelish (Daenerys Targaryen, Khal Drogo)

1 vote for Eddard Stark (Lord Varys)

1 vote for Jaime Lannister (Jorah Mormont)

1 vote for Sansa Stark (Tyrion Lannister)

1 vote for Tyrion Lannister (Eddard Stark)

1 players have not voted: Jaime Lannister.

[House Velaryon]

So now you're claiming that you were voting to remove a person without a role?

Are you a rope maker? Cause you are great at twisting things.

[House Dondarrion]

Right, I'm finally ready with reading the day...

So, firstly, sorry for not posting anything for such a long time, it's just that I don't have any possible access to the Internet when I'm out of home, and today's been a busy day for me.

Jorah, as a reply to your accusations: what I was trying to give were my opinions and feelings about the players, not any kind of concrete conclusions. Actually, what I don't understand is why most of the players are so inclined to give a hard time to those whose thoughts they consider to be too general? Really, how can anyone be sure enough of something in this kind of game?? Most of the actions here may be perceived doubly, and it's not to so easy to decide which interpretation is the right one, so being general is for me not such a bad thing as you tend to think...

As for the vote against Ros: it wasn't a "rush" one in a way that you mean it, it's just that from the comments that I've read after posting my vote against Tyrion I understood that I need to choose between Ros and Dany, because Tyrion couldn't have been lynched anyway, and as I'd changed my mind about Dany by the time, I've voted against Ros. I didn't understand that my vote could have such dramatic consequences... Although, on the other hand, it still seems to me that the decision to kill Ros was already made anyway, so in principle me leaving that vote hasn't really changed anything.

Also about Tyrion: what I've meant by him acting as my friend on another forum was that phrase about Dany voting without any reason against Baelish, when she's actually given one. And after she's told Tyrion about it he still insisted that there was none, adding something about the total OMGUS of her post, which also didn't really appeal to me, as I've found her arguments thoughtful and quite quite convincing.

There was also something about me warming up towards Dany for the reason of her being a strong player. Well, it's true, but what's bad about it? O.o

In order to make more sense of the current discussions I need to re-read the thread. What I can say right now is that I don't get why there was so much fuss around that Sansa's comment about Jorah. It's true that at first I found it strange as well, but then she's explained that it was only about her FEELINGS, which are not supposed to be reasonable, so Tyrion insisting that there was no explanation given makes me wonder... It's the same thing that was in the previous day with Dany imho...

[House Baratheon]

I'm back and should have some time now.

[House Stokeworth]

Probably, but in this case, it was merely a typing error by not putting non- in front of innocent.

Sorry to go all the way back to this, but not quite buying it.

The Ros mob bothers me. Not just because I was leading the Dany mob :devil: . Jaime would need to have balls of brass (or gold) to try and pull off the fake accidental hammer as FM. That kind of chutzpah inconsistent with the way he has played the game so far. He is likely innocent.

I know others have said this, but I do think that an FM could make the same mistake as an innocent here.

Honestly, Arya's just as likely to have been NK'd for being reasonable and relatively trusted as he is for anything he said, but a reread nonetheless:

#70 - He has the first serious post in the game, so kudos for that, questioning Sansa for removing vote due to 'bandwagon.'

#84, #86, #127 - Then he votes Dany for criticizing Sansa and voting for Ned in the same breath. He pursues the line of questioning, and in #127 makes mention that Dany might be too evil to be evil. (See below for a summary of his thoughts on Dany.)

His thoughts on everyone:

Make of that what you will. Possibly FM!Dany or FM!Eddard wanted to get someone off their back. Either way, I'd say I am less suspicious of Sansa now since I don't think Sansa had enough fans to NK someone that liked her.

I disagree here. In my experience suspicions can change a lot from day one to day 2. I can well imagine Sansa as FM thinking that Arya's danger if left alive outweighed the probability of being a symp and the dubious benefit of being trusted at that time.

After I had left I saw an omen in the Sky. A moon, red as blood, rising over the horizon. And then it was covered by a shadow and disappeared. That's how I knew Ros had died and that she was innocent.

I had to leave and I did. Though we all bear the brunt of our mistake, those who were going to be around at day's end could have removed their votes if they thought things were getting too hot and then cast them again closer to the end, yet I had not that leisure.

I don't really understand this here. You seem too keen to apologise for your vote.

Uh, it's not specific to this game? Seriously? I gave you a very specific example to this game. How much more specific would you like me to be?

Your over aggressiveness at this point in the game is suspicious and annoying.

This is not so much pot calling kettle black, but the grass calling the sky green. I think Tyrion's point is valid here, and that he wasn't aggressive about it.

This I just don't understand. I read it as "if you act too innocent, then you are likely am FM faking it? is that what you are saying?

What specifically made you think that that was what I was saying. Not sure what you want me to answer

Ah ha, a second lie, everyone knows mod humor isn't funny. By claiming to laugh, you've proven yourself dishonest.

Kidding. I can sort of accept the idea that you're just claiming not to like any early discussion of roles. I don't buy it, but I promise to feel extra guilty when we all end up in spoiler heaven and I find out it was a big misunderstanding.

Right now though, it still looks very suspicious. Despite that, I'm removing my vote from you, because I have a stronger feeling you're a symp, and I think that an innocent CF when we lynch you will end up derailing the investigation.

I want to look over all of Sansa's interactions, to see who her masters could possibly be.

Really don't like this. Already said I don't like the symp arguments, but this feels really like you were caught out with a fairly unjustified vote so wanted to remove it and had to invent a reason like you didn't want an evil person to be killed just in case everyone forgot that there could be symps and so the whole game was derailed. A bad reason to remove the vote, after a bad reason to place the vote.

Renly is suspicious to me now, but I want people to say what they think of Jaime and my case on him before I'll move.

[House Dondarrion]

Yeah, and also one thing that I've forgotten to mention: Lord Varys, was I really being so pathetic that you've shown that amount of protectiveness towards me?.. It's not that I'm not pleased, just another thing that made me wonder... Well, I hope that I'll be able to act in a not such a feeble way later...

[House Stokeworth]

I disagree, symps know their masters, and that knowing will impact their play. It serves our interest to develop an understanding of the situations which appear to be based on suspicious relationships. That way, if we we're to find say, Varys is guilty, then we could evaluate how they've interacted with others, including who may have been a possible symp, and work from there..

Of course if we find Varys guilty, looking for connections will be very important. But before anyone has died that we have an evil result for, it's pointless.

Right, I'm finally ready with reading the day...

So, firstly, sorry for not posting anything for such a long time, it's just that I don't have any possible access to the Internet when I'm out of home, and today's been a busy day for me.

Jorah, as a reply to your accusations: what I was trying to give were my opinions and feelings about the players, not any kind of concrete conclusions. Actually, what I don't understand is why most of the players are so inclined to give a hard time to those whose thoughts they consider to be too general? Really, how can anyone be sure enough of something in this kind of game?? Most of the actions here may be perceived doubly, and it's not to so easy to decide which interpretation is the right one, so being general is for me not such a bad thing as you tend to think...

I feel this, because I was in a similar situation once where I just tried to give my thoughts but was shot down for being wishy-washy (I was innocent but lynched for it). This is why I said that that in itself isn't very suspicious - it still is suspicious, because opinions are easier to form if they are genuine rather thanb fabricated, so it takes a skilled FM to come across as authentically sure of something. But for future reference whether innocent or guilty act surer than you are (without being tunnel-visioned), otherwise I and otherwise will find you suspicious.

Also, of course mafia isn't easy to decide what's true and what isn't, but posting that you aren't sure what you think of someone adds nothing to the game apart from the impression that you are alive and trying, which is important to a low-posting FM.

[House Baratheon]

It was the kind of point that I may celebrate at the beginning of the first day, yet I didn't think it held any weight on Daenerys once she finished with her mind games (one of the reasons why I didn't suspect her) and was a slightly silly point to make on Tyrion. A slack bow-string will not shoot, but it will break if you pull it a nook too far.

Huh? The 'imitating unjon' point was made by Tyrion, not against Tyrion. And you agreed with it at first, but then called it silly. Contradiction.

I would just like to use this opportunity to expand on what I was saying earlier. Saying a player is behaving in a confrontational way to draw attention away from themselves seems can be a good argument, but insisting he behaves like some other player in some other game is always pretty silly. This post by Jaime highlights the uselessness of it as nobody else playing could easily follow it, but at least it looks like Jaime’s friend was actually evil…

BUT THATS THE EXACT ARGUMENT YOU AGREED WITH!

[House Thorne]

I don't really understand this here. You seem too keen to apologise for your vote.

In this case it makes sense, they were commenting on the lunar eclipse yesterday, and engaging in some RP. It's a little obnoxious now on Day 2 to continue the roleplaying, but that's not a reason to lynch them.

Really don't like this. Already said I don't like the symp arguments, but this feels really like you were caught out with a fairly unjustified vote so wanted to remove it and had to invent a reason like you didn't want an evil person to be killed just in case everyone forgot that there could be symps and so the whole game was derailed. A bad reason to remove the vote, after a bad reason to place the vote.

Renly is suspicious to me now, but I want people to say what they think of Jaime and my case on him before I'll move.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but I really do believe that Sansa is evil, but a symp. I don't mind voting her off, but I think if we do, she'll be shown as an innocent by the CF and it'll feck things for us.

I think Varys is the most likely person to be Sansa's FM, with Dany as a distant second. If so, the other FM is liable to be on the quiet side, like Syrio, Jamie or Tyrion.

[House Dondarrion]

Jorah, right, I understand what you want to say and I find your point to be a fair one, but the thing is, when a person doesn't have exact opinions, what's he supposed to write then?.. Nothing at all? That's even less helpful. At least some general points might offer a new side from which to look at a certain player.

and yes, it's easier to form a genuine opinion than a fabricated one, it's clear, but this opinion might still be more of a general impression based a lot on intuitive judgement. For me it is so... Serious logical assumptions are not like mushrooms growing after a good rain, at least in my head...

[House Baratheon]

Looking back to see if Sansa ever suspected Ros prior to her vote.

First thing I could find was this post -

tier 1: Eddard; Daenerys; Ros (I am not sure if it is the play style yet or the actual content, I just get bad vibes from her)

tier 2: everyone else

tier 3: Arya and Varys. most likely to be innocent

tier 4: Sansa Stark

Only ones I m not willing to vote, at this time, are Arya and Varys. I just don't think they are guilty. Anyone else is fine.

So Ros is tier 1, and the explanation is bad vibes. At least its something I guess.

Vote count at that time (assuming Seacrest was accurate - I know their was some confusion around then) -

4 votes for Daenerys Targaryen (Jaime Lannister, Petyr Baelish, Arya Stark, Tyrion Lannister.)

2 votes for Eddard Stark (Lord Varys, Sansa Stark)

2 votes for Lord Varys (Renly Baratheon, Daenerys Targaryen)

2 votes for Sansa Stark (Khal Drogo, Eddard Stark)

1 vote for Khal Drogo (Cersei Lannister)

1 vote for Ros (Syrio Forel)

2 players have not voted: Jorah Mormont, Ros.

So it wasn't as if Sansa was obviously jumping on the Ros bandwagon when she first mentioned Ros. Though I do think a few other people (Arya at least) were mentioning Ros as suspicious at that point, they just hadn't started voting that way yet.

Then later on, Sansa changes to Ros, casting the 3rd vote.

I am going to change to Ros for her suspicious play.

Sansa - when you first listed Ros in your top tier, you said it was for bad vibes. You also said you weren't sure if it was due to play style or actual content. Then when you cast your vote you said it was because of her suspicious play. Did something change to turn your 'bad vibes' into 'suspicious play'? What was her suspicious play exactly?

Also, who are your top 4-5 suspects right now?

[House Pommingham]

#233, #68 - Her first vote on Varys is a joke. Later, she removes the vote because of bandwagon. I've already said I thought this was pretty sketch and looked like a jumpy FM wary of a berserker, but alas, everyone thinks I'm off my rocker.

Is everyone playing new to Westeros or what? I voted a person because I was jealous of the way they RP'ed. Since when does such a vote require explaining when it is removed. If I left it there I would be under more sever questioning.

ok, bandwagon was an exaggeration, but look at the reason for the vote in the first place. :rolleyes:

For the record, I knew I would be gone about 10 hours as I dealt with RL and was not leaving a joke vote on someone who collected voted very quickly.

Underlined emphasis mine. I think it's strange that she was concerned about that. Everyone knows it's a joke vote. As long as we know you'll be back later, it's fine to leave your vote as is. It also doesn't address why she was concerned about the bandwagon in specific, unless you really buy that she was exaggerating for shits and giggles. (I do believe that she was really gone for 10hrs.)

There's more to the post where Sansa responds to various accusations, check it out yourself if you want. The end's more important:

Eddard Stark

Sorry but this is not OMGUS. This is based on you creating a case based on my removal of a joke vote. It is your reaction to that that really bothers me.

She does not, imo, inaccurately represent Ned here btw. His case against her (at that point) really was an accusation that she removed her joke vote so that she may use it opportunistically later.

#151, #154 - She responds to accusations that she was being defensive. Quite well, imo.

tier 1: Eddard; Daenerys; Ros (I am not sure if it is the play style yet or the actual content, I just get bad vibes from her)

tier 2: everyone else

tier 3: Arya and Varys. most likely to be innocent

tier 4: Sansa Stark

Only ones I m not willing to vote, at this time, are Arya and Varys. I just don't think they are guilty. Anyone else is fine.

Her tiers. She's pretty quiet after this.

#251 - Her next post is her claiming that she'd voted, when Ned claimed she didn't, because Seacrest messed up the vote count.

It was the way it was done with the implication that I was lurking and being dishonest about it. His tone was a big part of it.

Of course I am now thinking he is just too unreasonable to an FM. :P

I am going to change to Ros for her suspicious play.

Then she votes Ros. She'd said she had bad vibes earlier in the day, but Sansa, why did you not vote Dany? I get that Ned was your first choice, but between Dany and Ros, if all you had on Ros was bad vibes and weird play style, why not set Dany up for the noose instead?

I'd rather we lynch a whore.

This is very true. Kind of telling, don't you think?

Er, Sansa, when you said you'd rather lynch a whore, I just upped and assumed that you'd decided Ned was, in fact, too unreasonable to be an FM. I had actually thought you were joking about that earlier, but were you in fact for real? If so, what did you mean when that was "kind of telling"? Telling of what?

Also: What do you think of Ned now?

#262, #268, #282 - Series of posts trying to ensure a lynch (any lynch). Tells Ned to get his ass onto a lynch train that might actually leave the station. Then tells everyone that's voting solo to think about compromise. Suggests to Jaime that his Tyrion vote isn't going to amount to anything.

Then we lynched Ros. No comment from Sansa. She's actually pretty scarce in general throughout the whole pre and post lynching. (Not that I am unthankful. My next reread is so going to be Jorah or someone else that's barely posted at all.)

My dear sweet sister. :crying:

I thought Jaime's accidental hammering was genuine. While I won't say this makes him likely innocent, it doesn't make him guilty either, but I am willing to wait a while on final judgment.

I doubt someone in Arya's top tier killed her. Most likely it would be a person in the middle area.

It is past my bed time, but the day is long enough for me to sleep.

Morning reaction, because some people think it's significant. I personally don't. I agree with her that Jaime's hammering was an accident, but that doesn't indicate innocence.

Any particular reason you think someone in Arya's middle-tier NK'd her? Do you think both the FMs are in her middle tier? Not attacking you, I'm genuinely curious. I've been thinking myself into a rut about this.

#397 - Renly wants answers, but doesn't ask questions, so Sansa wants to know what his question is to begin with anyway.

And then her reread/case on Jorah. I'm just quoting the first bit, but do check out the rest:

I started my review with Jorah. First thing I want to point out is his first post, it very much mirrors the list of roles posted at the start of the game. I absolutely hate people who role hint with their first post. They have set themselves up for a possible role claim later on. It has been my experience that FM and symps are a lot more likely to do this (at least this obviously)

I think the flaws with Sansa's accusation here have been covered already. Tyrion apparently wants to know why you thought Jorah was setting up a claim for, so go answer that, Sansa, will you?

Also, Jorah, go respond to her points against you. I don't want to touch any more on her case until you do.

#404, #412, #418, #419, #421, #426, #431, #439 - She goes in circles with Tyrion (and Renly) about why she included the Jorah's "worst possible role" quote as a point against him in her case. Accuses Renly of sheeping Tyrion.

#413 - Wants to know why Tyrion trusts Cersei (which he doesn't anymore).

Is "Symp Hunter" a hidden role given to half the players? I have not seen so much symp talk since, well, ever.

Word.

I wanted to be one, but the bastards killed the person who I agreed with most.

You mean Arya, obviously. What about Varys? You said you trusted him yesterday. What'd he do that's changed that?

In summary: There was the weird joke vote removal thing. She's not very contributive, which is interesting considering that most people weren't too happy with her, and I think for a while, it was up in the air whether Ned, Ros, or Sansa would become the alternate lynch to Dany. I think it's scummy for her to have shut up rather than try to attack Ned (well, further attack Ned) and Ros, who she listed on her first tier. Because she was attempting to organize everyone around to ensure a lynch after it was Dany vs Ros, I'm inclined to think that she was sitting back and waiting to see which way the wind blew. It's weird, in any case.

I don't really make much of her thing about the fake role-claiming and Jorah. She's done/said weirder things.

[House Clegane]

Re-read of Tyrion.

He opened with the case on Dany for trying to play unJon. He describes Sansa as being suspicious but doesn't explain why at this time, just places Sansa below Dany.

He then defends the Dany case against Cersei's questioning. Again comparing it to unJon/Onus in the Malazan game.

Then a couple posts about possible game set-up.

Next he moves Sansa up a tier (but still below Dany) because she shows "no original thought" So far this is the only suspicion he has voiced on Sansa. He then questions why Sansa put Ros in Sansa's top tier without explanation (by Sansa).

Next couple posts are back and forth with Dany. When asked by Dany to give some opinions, he refers back to his case on her and then goes on attack against her. He doesn't offer up any new opinions nor really explain his suspicions of Sansa.

He then responds to Arya and admits he's not being too free with his opinions, but does post his tiers: Dany on the top of course, no one under her, Sansa at "2.5" and says he's already explained this (see above, I guess), Arya and me at 3 - Arya because she casts some suspicion at him for "weak reasons" and me because I suggested random.org and general just "gut feelings." 4. is "everyone else."

Next post just puts his tiers into Arya's categories with Dany as "Want to lynch", Sansa, Arya and I as "Ready to Lynch", everyone else as "would lynch for CF result."

Next post is that he's unlikely to be on for end of day unless he is crazy but that regardless he will not move his vote for compromise. He is firm on Dany.

He then decides he will stay and be around. Expresses annoyance at Arya for drumming up alternate lynch on Ros and saying he won't be around.

Next post is after Jaime puts final vote on Ros and says that Jaime better have a good reason.

Last post of the night is that he will have a "a lot of questions to a lot of players" if Ros is innocent.

He's then gone for the rest of night.

But when he arrives the next morning, he says Cersei covered all his suspects and he's going to go re-read Syrio instead. He declares Jaime's final vote to be accidental but that Inno and FM could make the same mistake.

His case on Syrio, basically says Syrio started a lot of conversations but didn't follow up on them. I don't really see where he makes clear why this is evidence of guilt. But he votes Syrio at this time.

Next is re-read on Dany, who he also finds suspicious. This time for lots of posts but no real contribution. Calls her "extremely suspicious" Can't understand why more people didn't vote Dany. He then edits a response to Dany's posts saying they make Dany look worse. He does not however change his vote to Dany, his firm D1 lynch of choice who apparently looks even more guilty.

Next is an exchange with Dany where he accuses Dany of just spouting general statements the way a FM would. Does not move vote.

Then requests Varys' opinion on his "case" on Dany which he has now downgraded to a "resume". Varys doesn't respond favorably to it and Tyrion has no response when Varys invites him to state what Tyrion actually finds suspicious.

feel it does little other than state facts that one can not really argue with, but as you point out it doesn't really constitute a case. I suggest you cease to chronicle Daenerys' actions like an old Maester talking about the heroes of yore and point out what it is about them that you find suspicious.

Follows is the beginning of the discussion of Sansa's remark regarding Jorah's statement about having the "worst role"

Post his new tiers : 1. Syrio, Varys, Eddard and Dany. 2. Baelish and Khal 3. Renly, Jaime, Jorah 4. Cersei. Says he is holding off on Sansa until she responds, says tier 1 if won't. No explanation given of suspicions or why on tiers.

Back and forth with Sansa over the "role issue" results in vote on Sansa. Renly also likes this and joins in.

Cersei "defends" Sansa and his results in suspicion that Cersei is symp and no longer trusted. Where she is on the tiers now?

Unsatisfied with Sansa's response. He keeps vote on her.

He was very focused on Dany on D1. But decides to make a vote and weak case on Syrio. Despite claiming that Cersei has done all his work for him on Eddard, Khal and Varys, he never comments on Cersei's re-read and how these play into his tier listings. He doesn't really explain his suspicions on anyone other than Dany. He is suspicious of Sansa since D1 and appears to be using the "role issue" as a pretext for voting her now. I didn't see anything that stuck out to me as link back to Varys re: my symp theory. But where we stand now is that he has five players (perhaps six with Cersei) as his tier 1 suspects with no explanation on why they are there and why others like Khal, that he suspected after the lynch, are not.

I'm comfortable leaving my vote on him for now.

I'll have to do my other re-reads later tonight. As of now, I'm staying on Tyrion and I'm willing to vote Varys. So far none of the other cases look particularly appealing to me.