A Thread for Small Questions X

[Galen M]

When did he say this? Was it when Cat was betrothed to Brandon, or when she was betrothed to Ned?

IIRC, Catelyn states in the books that one of the reasons Jon married Lysa was because he had lost his heir in the Battle of the Bells. This implies that the wedding had not been arranged until after the Rebellion began.

The timeline is kind of bugging me, too. Cat talks about how she and Lysa both thought they were pregnant, but Lysa was forced to have an abortion because it was really Petyr's. However, the marriage was supposedly arranged after Lysa's abortion, but she and Cat were married on the same day, and Robb was definitely trueborn. I'm not sure what I'm missing.

[Dragonfish]

The timeline is kind of bugging me, too. Cat talks about how she and Lysa both thought they were pregnant, but Lysa was forced to have an abortion because it was really Petyr's. However, the marriage was supposedly arranged after Lysa's abortion, but she and Cat were married on the same day, and Robb was definitely trueborn. I'm not sure what I'm missing.

Are you sure the book says that this is when Lysa had the abortion? Perhaps she merely had a miscarriage, which itself was related to the abortifacient she had been forced to take before.

[Galen M]

Are you sure the book says that this is when Lysa had the abortion? Perhaps she merely had a miscarriage, which itself was related to the abortifacient she had been forced to take before.

it doesn't say anything definitively. It's all speculation by Cat. Actually, I've got the book in front of me, and it's definitely to that first time right after the marriage. Maybe Hoster knew she was pregnant, used that to arrange the marriage with Jon Arryn, conditioned upon the child being aborted. That might make sense.

Brandon and Cat get engaged

Petyr and Brandon duel

Brandon runs to KL

Petyr knocks up Lysa

Petyr is sent away

Hoster arranges for Lysa to marry Jon

The double wedding with Ned/Cat and Jon/Lysa

Ned impregnates Cat

Lysa has her abortion

[Dark Lord]

Are you sure the book says that this is when Lysa had the abortion? Perhaps she merely had a miscarriage, which itself was related to the abortifacient she had been forced to take before.

I think this is the sequence of events

1) Brandon was to marry Cat

2) Petyr challenges Brandon and gets injured

3) Lysa gets pregnant with Petyr

4) Brandon is killed, the rebellion begins

5) In the meantime, Hoster cuts off Petyr and gives Lysa the abortificant

6) Cat and Lysa marry Ned and Hoster respectively

[slayer420]

are we sure the baby is dead, could LF have a 15 year old kid runing around

[Galen M]

I think this is the sequence of events

1) Brandon was to marry Cat

2) Petyr challenges Brandon and gets injured

3) Lysa gets pregnant with Petyr

4) Brandon is killed, the rebellion begins

5) In the meantime, Hoster cuts off Petyr and gives Lysa the abortificant

6) Cat and Lysa marry Ned and Hoster respectively

That would require that the abortificant take at least 2 months to work. I'd be surprised if it took more than 2 days. The only way that Cat's story works with what we know is for Lysa to be pregnant with Petyr's bastard when the wedding is arranged, and the abortion occurs after Cat becomes pregnant.

Also, Lysa marries Jon, not Hoster :P

[KyleLitke]

I'm a little lost on what we're talking about...Cat claimed she and Lysa were pregnant at the same time? Is that what we're saying?

Is it possible Petyr's child was aborted before the marriage and Lysa got pregnant with Jon's child, which she then lost? I thought I remember it being said she lost multiple children before having sickly Robert, but I may be remembering that wrong.

[Galen M]

I'm a little lost on what we're talking about...Cat claimed she and Lysa were pregnant at the same time? Is that what we're saying?

Is it possible Petyr's child was aborted before the marriage and Lysa got pregnant with Jon's child, which she then lost? I thought I remember it being said she lost multiple children before having sickly Robert, but I may be remembering that wrong.

It's certainly possible Cat got it wrong, but she believes that it was Petyr's child that was aborted while Cat was pregnant.

[KyleLitke]

It's certainly possible Cat got it wrong, but she believes that it was Petyr's child that was aborted while Cat was pregnant.

Gotcha. Then yeah, the timeline is weird.

[slayer420]

I was rereading the first book and this jumped out at me

"You are a boy of fourteen, " Benjen said. "Not a man, not yet. Until you have known a woman, you cannot understand what you would be giving up. "

"I don't care about that!" Jon said hotly.

"You might, if you knew what it meant, " Benjen said. "If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son. "

Jon felt anger rise inside him. "I'm not your son!"

Benjen Stark stood up. "More's the pity. " He put a hand on Jon's shoulder. "Come back to me after you've fathered a few bastards of your own, and we'll see how you feel. "

I know it sounds crazy but could Benjen be jon's father?

Benjen calls him son and it sounds like benjen is saying he has fathered some bastards

Martin said that jons birth history was complcated, What if Lyanne + Benjen = jon I know that sounds crazy, but incest seems not to be that uncommon in these books and it would explain why Benjen joined the NW and Ned would want to protect his little brother.

[Dragonfish]

I know it sounds crazy but could Benjen be jon's father?

Benjen calls him son and it sounds like benjen is saying he has fathered some bastards

Martin said that jons birth history was complcated, What if Lyanne + Benjen = jon I know that sounds crazy, but incest seems not to be that uncommon in these books and it would explain why Benjen joined the NW and Ned would want to protect his little brother.

Benjen was in Winterfell during the war. Lyanna was...not. I think it's very unlikely that Benjen is Jon's father.

[Galen M]

I was rereading the first book and this jumped out at me

"You are a boy of fourteen, " Benjen said. "Not a man, not yet. Until you have known a woman, you cannot understand what you would be giving up. "

"I don't care about that!" Jon said hotly.

"You might, if you knew what it meant, " Benjen said. "If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son. "

Jon felt anger rise inside him. "I'm not your son!"

Benjen Stark stood up. "More's the pity. " He put a hand on Jon's shoulder. "Come back to me after you've fathered a few bastards of your own, and we'll see how you feel. "

I know it sounds crazy but could Benjen be jon's father?

Benjen calls him son and it sounds like benjen is saying he has fathered some bastards

Martin said that jons birth history was complcated, What if Lyanne + Benjen = jon I know that sounds crazy, but incest seems not to be that uncommon in these books and it would explain why Benjen joined the NW and Ned would want to protect his little brother.

Timeline doesn't work for BenJen+Lyanna, as he was up in Winterfell, while she was in Dorne at the time of conception. Also, and this is the other axe that kills most of these theories, why would Ned need to lie about BenJen being the father?

[slayer420]

Timeline doesn't work for BenJen+Lyanna, as he was up in Winterfell, while she was in Dorne at the time of conception. Also, and this is the other axe that kills most of these theories, why would Ned need to lie about BenJen being the father?

Ned would want to protect his little brother and his sisters honor. I dont see a problem with the time line Lyanna would have ran away from winterfell because she was PG and she has made friends with prince Targ, maybe the only one she could trust with this that wouldnt tell her father

[mormont]

It's certainly possible Cat got it wrong, but she believes that it was Petyr's child that was aborted while Cat was pregnant.

I think you're mixing that up a little. There's nothing about LF in that quote. In ASOS, Cat recalls:

Lysa had miscarried five times, twice in the Eyrie, thrice at King's Landing... but never at Riverrun, where Lord Hoster would have been at hand to comfort her. Never, unless... unless she was with child, that first time...

She and her sister had been married on the same day, and left in their father's care when their new husbands had ridden off to rejoin Robert's rebellion. Afterward, when their moon blood did not come at the accustomed time, Lysa had gushed happily of the sons she was certain they carried. "Your son will be the heir to Winterfell and mine to the Eyrie. Oh, they'll be the best of friends, like your Ned and Lord Robert. They'll be more brothers than cousins, I know it." She was so happy.

But Lysa's blood had come not long after, and all the joy had gone out of her. Catelyn had always thought that Lysa had just been a little late, but if she had been with child...

Cat goes on to recall how Lysa became upset when she gave her Robb to hold. She then figures out that Lysa might have lost a child before, and this puts the final clue in her mind about the abortion. But that doesn't mean that she believes that the abortion was after the scene she recalls above. It's equally plausible that Lysa simply was late on this occasion, and was happy because she thought she was pregnant again. That makes sense: Cat would have noticed the difference between a late period and the aftermath of an abortion, particularly as Lysa must have been many months pregnant if it was LF's child.

[Dragonfish]

I dont see a problem with the time line Lyanna would have ran away from winterfell because she was PG and she has made friends with prince Targ, maybe the only one she could trust with this that wouldnt tell her father

Jon was conceived a few months into the war. That means that in order for Benjen and Lyanna to be his parents, they would have had to meet and have sex during the war, with her somehow going back into captivity afterwards. Very, very unlikely.

[slayer420]

Jon was conceived a few months into the war. That means that in order for Benjen and Lyanna to be his parents, they would have had to meet and have sex during the war, with her somehow going back into captivity afterwards. Very, very unlikely.

ti

where does it said that jon is conceived a few months into the war? This is bases on the fact that most people think Lyanne dies in childbirth, she could have been killed someother way and jon already been a few months old. There is no timeline that i have found for jon that says when he was born

[Dragonfish]

ti

where does it said that jon is conceived a few months into the war? This is bases on the fact that most people think Lyanne dies in childbirth, she could have been killed someother way and jon already been a few months old. There is no timeline that i have found for jon that says when he was born

George said in this SSM that Jon was born around 8 or 9 months before Dany, putting his birth at some time around the Sack of King's Landing. Since the war lasted "close to" a year, that means Jon had to have been conceived at least a couple months into the war.

[slayer420]

George said in this SSM that Jon was born around 8 or 9 months before Dany, putting his birth at some time around the Sack of King's Landing. Since the war lasted "close to" a year, that means Jon had to have been conceived at least a couple months into the war.

I read that and it is very vague, and we are only talking about 2 months here, so I dont think that proves my theory wrong, but very good info and thanks for sharing. I like to throw out a few crazy ideas and see if any of them stick.

[Dragonfish]

I read that and it is very vague, and we are only talking about 2 months here, so I dont think that proves my theory wrong,

At the very least, I think we can say with a high degree of confidence that Jon was conceived after the war began, which does make your theory implausible.

...but very good info and thanks for sharing.

You're welcome.

[Galen M]

I think you're mixing that up a little. There's nothing about LF in that quote. In ASOS, Cat recalls:

Cat goes on to recall how Lysa became upset when she gave her Robb to hold. She then figures out that Lysa might have lost a child before, and this puts the final clue in her mind about the abortion. But that doesn't mean that she believes that the abortion was after the scene she recalls above. It's equally plausible that Lysa simply was late on this occasion, and was happy because she thought she was pregnant again. That makes sense: Cat would have noticed the difference between a late period and the aftermath of an abortion, particularly as Lysa must have been many months pregnant if it was LF's child.

I seem to recall a line where Hoster mutters something about LF, not by name, though. "Never, unless... unless she was with child, that first time..." surely refers to the time when Cat was pregnant and thought Lysa to be so, too, right? Especially how it leads into the flashback. As I said, Cat could be wrong, but she clearly believes that Lysa's abortion occured shortly after Cat herself became pregnant.