Police/Robbery Story

[Shryke]

I posted the Tueller Drill earlier. It is pretty much gun science at this point that an assailant with a knife within 20 feet of you (count off 20 feet, its a long ways), can close the distance and kill you before you can unholster your gun, acquire the target, and open fire. If CH was walking into a situation where he believed that such a threat existed, it would be foolish to leave his weapon holstered.

Yeah. Look, leaving aside the question of whether it's a good idea or whether CH should have or whatever, if you are going into a situation where you think you will need a gun (or, perhaps more accurately, think you will need to use it), have it in your damn hands.

[Shryke]

two, it was in a defensive situation, defensive of my friend who could have been facing 4 men, who may have been armed. the police have yet to verify if weapons were found in the van. just because i took the firearm to a location not defending my own property does not mean i was entering with an offensive mindset or agenda.

Dude, you went charging into a situation with a gun in your hand. If you didn't have an "offensive mindset", wtf were you doing running around with a loaded gun in your hands?

[S John]

but in this situation the intent would only be to neutralize the target vs kill, unless a gun or weapon was apparent. it would be important for me to show i was not just wildly entering with intent to kill and use my gun.

Sort of a tangent, but I've been wondering how effective those bean-bag or rock salt shotgun rounds are. I mean, I really don't ever want to kill anyone... but I'd still like to be able to light someone the fuck up if they came into my home. If effective those could be a nice compromise, y'know? Ruin someone's god damn week, but they ultimately stay in one piece and I probably don't need a defense attorney. But it has to be able to completely take someone out. If all its going to do is piss them off then you're probably better off with lethal rounds.

Still, I understand you can't run a mile through DC carrying a shotgun so it wouldn't have really been applicable here.

[The Progressive]

:)

one, i never said i was confident i'd be fine based on having just a permit on file.

Yet you seem quite annoyed because the police didn't take your words for it and therefore treated an agitated and armed person with proper caution per protocol. ;)

two, it was in a defensive situation, defensive of my friend who could have been facing 4 men, who may have been armed. the police have yet to verify if weapons were found in the van. just because i took the firearm to a location not defending my own property does not mean i was entering with an offensive mindset or agenda.

I don't think so. You went there armed with the fore-knowledge that the police were already alarmed and is either on their way or were already there.

There were really no need for you to be there at all, except to offer emotional support for a friend in distress. All other excuses are pretext for a vigilante mindset.

It's even more amusing that you're here bragging about how you're so confident that you could shoot to disable the assailants (all of them!) but not kill.

[Colder Hands]

If a person is coming at you with the intent to do you harm, aiming for the legs is a great way to 1) get killed and 2) have the highest potential of you shooting innocent bystanders. See Tormund's previous link to the Tueller drill to see how quickly a person can put their hands on you. If your life is really in danger your goal is to immediately incapacitate the person.

And in a dark, stressful environment actually hitting anything other than center body mass requires nerves of absolute steel, constant training, zen-like body control, and exquisite marksmanship.

again, the aiming for the legs would have been my ideal target based on ideal settings. it was what i hoped for if the situation was bad. i would have altered that based on the surroundings. one advantage i had was i am very familiar with the home, could easily walk through it with my eyes closed given all things were left tidy.

i was very confident entering the situation and would gladly do it again.

it also takes intense training or freakish reaction skills/instinct to take a GSW and be able to continue advancing. especially if they had been unarmed. just discharging the weapon should serve in most cases as enough incentive for them to retract or at least take cover and hide there.

[The Progressive]

Dude, you went charging into a situation with a gun in your hand. If you didn't have an "offensive mindset", wtf were you doing running around with a loaded gun in your hands?

Indeed.

The pretext are quite transparent here.

[Tobin]

Sort of a tangent, but I've been wondering how effective those bean-bag or rock salt shotgun rounds are. I mean, I really don't ever want to kill anyone... but I'd still like to be able to light someone the fuck up if they came into my home. If effective those could be a nice compromise, y'know? Ruin someone's god damn week, but they ultimately stay in one piece and I probably don't need a defense attorney. But it has to be able to completely take someone out. If all its going to do is piss them off then you're probably better off with lethal rounds.

Still, I understand you can't run a mile through DC carrying a shotgun so it wouldn't have really been applicable here.

I've seen test video of the beanbags and Xshot rounds for shotguns - they appear to have some pretty decent stopping power.

The advantage is that you're less likely to strike a lethal blow (it's unlikely, but still possible to kill someone with non-lethal rounds) - but the disadvantage is that they're still alive and can exact revenge or sue you for hurting them.

I was always told (only half in jest) that if someone breaks into the house and threatens me - shoot to kill them before they can get back outside.

There was a show on either the Discovery or History Channel where they were exploring new types of less-than-lethal weapons, including lasers, shock-boxes and portable LRAD.

[Colder Hands]

Yet you seem quite annoyed because the police didn't take your words for it and therefore treated an agitated and armed person with proper caution per protocol. ;)

I don't think so. You went there armed with the fore-knowledge that the police were already alarmed and is either on their way or were already there.

There were really no need for you to be there at all, except to offer emotional support for a friend in distress. All other excuses are pretext for a vigilante mindset.

It's even more amusing that you're here bragging about how you're so confident that you could shoot to disable the assailants (all of them!) but not kill.

i refer to what Raids said on this, had i arrived to see her being dragged into the van and being taken i would not have been able to live with that. i took the firearm there to defend myself from attack and my friend. i did not take it to just casually and w/o thought open fire. in terms of the pretext for vigilante justice, perhaps. i feel like i would be splitting hairs on that one since i believe people should have the right to defend not only themselves but others in situations where the police have yet to arrive and their arrival time is unknown.

i never said i was confident i could shoot all of them and not kill them. i said i was confident in the situation based on past training and that neutralizing one target or two should scatter the rest. i said if that was not to happen and all of them advanced on me it would not be ideal to try and evade and shoot. i also said i would have changed my mindset to kill if the situation looked to elevate past a simple round fired being able to defuse the scene.

[Guest Raidne]

If you think you need to shoot for the legs, put the gun away.

[kungtotte]

A normal car is about 16-18 feet long. I don't doubt that the 21 foot rule holds true but let's have some perspective as to how far 21' really is.

[Ixodes]

it also takes intense training or freakish reaction skills/instinct to take a GSW and be able to continue advancing. especially if they had been unarmed. just discharging the weapon should serve in most cases as enough incentive for them to retract or at least take cover and hide there.

Or epinehprine. It's amazing how the human (or animal) body can hide pain/dysfunction when those adrenal glands are fully stimulated. Regardless, it sounds like you didn't choose to bring a gun in that situation lightly and everything worked out.

[The Progressive]

i never said i was confident i could shoot all of them and not kill them. i said i was confident in the situation based on past training and that neutralizing one target or two should scatter the rest. i said if that was not to happen and all of them advanced on me it would not be ideal to try and evade and shoot. i also said i would have changed my mindset to kill if the situation looked to elevate past a simple round fired being able to defuse the scene.

You really think that you could have taken all of them out without getting you and your friend or whoever else nearby getting killed?

That's really amazing, and that's all I have to say.

[Kouran]

Sort of a tangent, but I've been wondering how effective those bean-bag or rock salt shotgun rounds are. I mean, I really don't ever want to kill anyone... but I'd still like to be able to light someone the fuck up if they came into my home. If effective those could be a nice compromise, y'know? Ruin someone's god damn week, but they ultimately stay in one piece and I probably don't need a defense attorney. But it has to be able to completely take someone out. If all its going to do is piss them off then you're probably better off with lethal rounds.

Still, I understand you can't run a mile through DC carrying a shotgun so it wouldn't have really been applicable here.

Bean bag and rock salt can be effective. However, I would NEVER ever use anything less than a lethal round if you want to make sure YOU survive. I would use something like this link thats a frangible 12 gauge slug. It will kill a man without blowing through them and hitting people behind them.

Never ever pull out a weapon you dont have 100% intent to kill with. If you think your John Wayne you are most likely to end up laid out on a cold slab in a morgue sooner rather than later.

Also never over estimate how easy a shotgun is to use. There is this common urban myth that you just point a shotgun somewhere near the target and whole walls get blown down. That isnt how it works. Even a 18" barrel shotgun has a small spread at ranges inside your house, unless you live in the Taj Mhal or the Astrodome. At the 20' or so across my living room my spread would be about 4" with 00 buck so you have to be able to aim in a hurry and not freak out.

[Colder Hands]

Sort of a tangent, but I've been wondering how effective those bean-bag or rock salt shotgun rounds are. I mean, I really don't ever want to kill anyone... but I'd still like to be able to light someone the fuck up if they came into my home. If effective those could be a nice compromise, y'know? Ruin someone's god damn week, but they ultimately stay in one piece and I probably don't need a defense attorney. But it has to be able to completely take someone out. If all its going to do is piss them off then you're probably better off with lethal rounds.

Still, I understand you can't run a mile through DC carrying a shotgun so it wouldn't have really been applicable here.

they are very affective providing various cover points targets may be able to take. had they been in the house and in the same room i have no doubt one of them would have worked perfectly given the size of the rooms.

and at that time of night where i was going, pretty sure i could have carried a rocket launcher a mile w/o notice. other places in DC hell no, but this spot is pretty dead and empty after 10pm.

[Colder Hands]

You really think that you could have taken all of them out without getting you and your friend or whoever else nearby getting killed?

That's really amazing, and that's all I have to say.

perhaps, i would have had to see the situation and where everyone was and where my friend was to answer that, but i was confident in being able to make an assessment and to try and scare them off and do more if needed/was tactical to try.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

21 feet is demonstrated toward the end of the video.

[Ixodes]

Sort of a tangent, but I've been wondering how effective those bean-bag or rock salt shotgun rounds are. I mean, I really don't ever want to kill anyone... but I'd still like to be able to light someone the fuck up if they came into my home. If effective those could be a nice compromise, y'know? Ruin someone's god damn week, but they ultimately stay in one piece and I probably don't need a defense attorney. But it has to be able to completely take someone out. If all its going to do is piss them off then you're probably better off with lethal rounds.

Still, I understand you can't run a mile through DC carrying a shotgun so it wouldn't have really been applicable here.

My brother is a tactical medic for the SWAT team in Columbus, so he gets deployed whenever they go on a run. It seems about every year or so there will be a riot up at OSU and they beat it down with rubber bullets, bean bags, and tear gas. From his reports the bean bags are pretty good at putting down drunken rioters. I would imagine it would work similarly for home defense.

But I agree with Raidne -- if you don't want to kill, don't use a gun. Pepper spray is a good alternative. We have a few cans of bear spray sitting around at work for that reason. I am kinda surprised that staff hasn't used it on me or each other, to be honest.

[Mudguard]

Glad things turned out OK, but I'm not sure whether bringing your gun was the best decision. As pointed out earlier, if they were in the process of abducting your friend, it probably would have been useful to have the gun, assuming they weren't all armed as well. Maybe in that situation you could have scared them away.

But I can imagine a bunch of scenarios where having the gun out could have easily escalated the situation into a disaster. Say they had a lookout peering out a window. Unlikely that you'd be able to detect him if the lights were out in that room. If they were armed with guns, I can't imagine it turning out well for you.

Say they were in the house and armed, and had taken your friend hostage. You discover this after entering the house. What could you really do at this point? They tell you to put down your gun or they kill your friend. Are you going to start opening fire or would you comply?

But I understand that in the heat of the moment, you don't have time to analyze all the possibilities, and often just have to go on gut feelings or instinct.

[Colder Hands]

My brother is a tactical medic for the SWAT team in Columbus, so he gets deployed whenever they go on a run. It seems about every year or so there will be a riot up at OSU and they beat it down with rubber bullets, bean bags, and tear gas. From his reports the bean bags are pretty good at putting down drunken rioters. I would imagine it would work similarly for home defense.

But I agree with Raidne -- if you don't want to kill, don't use a gun. Pepper spray is a good alternative. We have a few cans of bear spray sitting around at work for that reason. I am kinda surprised that staff hasn't used it on me or each other, to be honest.

peper spray is terrible in a closed environment like that and too hard to take down multiple targets with. the worse part of pepper spray is it can linger in the air or blow back on you.

the gun was meant to be used first as a deterrent, 2nd as a warning i.e. leg shot, and third deadly force if needed.

i did not want to kill, but it didn't hurt to have the option if the situation called for it.

[Shryke]

peper spray is terrible in a closed environment like that and too hard to take down multiple targets with. the worse part of pepper spray is it can linger in the air or blow back on you.

the gun was meant to be used first as a deterrent, 2nd as a warning i.e. leg shot, and third deadly force if needed.

i did not want to kill, but it didn't hurt to have the option if the situation called for it.

This is the scariest thing in this thread.