[ADWD Spoilers] Jon (ending)

[Idris]

He'll get better. Tis but a flesh wound.

[Ygritte]

He'll get better. Tis but a flesh wound.

And...

He's only mostly dead. ;)

[Mark3]

He'll get better. Tis but a flesh wound.

My thoughts as well, although the "rebirth" theory is fairly compelling - the bleeding star, the alty tears, and the description of the wound as smoking are all pretty intereesting choices on GRRM's part.

But 4 stab wounds? Nothing. Brienne survived her face getting eaten off. Bran fell from the top of a castle tower and lived. Ser Loras was shot with 2 crossbow bolts, had his ribs smashed by a mace, and was doused with boiling oil, yet still lives. The Hound had a piece of is ear cut off, and suffered deep cuts to his neck and hip, which became infected, and he's (almost certainly) alive. The Mountain was impaled through the chest with a spear and might have lived if not for the poison on the tip. Etc, etc...

[Ygritte]

My thoughts as well, although the "rebirth" theory is fairly compelling - the bleeding star, the alty tears, and the description of the wound as smoking are all pretty intereesting choices on GRRM's part.

Yeah, I think he will technically die--thus ending his "watch"--and that some combination of warging, Red God magic, Azor Ahai mojo, and not being batshit insane in the first place will combine to make "UnJon" pretty similar to "Jon." (Because I think a large part of why Stoneheart is nuts is that she cracked right before she died, and that Beric was traumatized by repeated deaths and rebirths.)

[TheMediumJon]

Yeah, I think he will technically die--thus ending his "watch"--and that some combination of warging, Red God magic, Azor Ahai mojo, and not being batshit insane in the first place will combine to make "UnJon" pretty similar to "Jon."

If Jon wargs on over to Ghost, his body is kept alive in a coma-like state while it heals physically, and then he jumps back in, it's possible that 'undead/personality shift' angles don't even have to play into it. If that's the way it plays, for me it's one of the better plot devices introduced, as it advances the narrative (buys leeway with the Night Watch angle) without drastically altering Jon's character.

[Ygritte]

If Jon wargs on over to Ghost, his body is kept alive in a coma-like state while it heals physically, and then he jumps back in, it's possible that 'undead/personality shift' angles don't even have to play into it. If that's the way it plays, for me it's one of the better plot devices introduced, as it advances the narrative (buys leeway with the Night Watch angle) without drastically altering Jon's character.

I would enjoy that device too, and I'd think it was a clever use of about a zillion pieces of info that have been sneakily laid out in this book and the earlier ones. :)

[Slick Mongoose]

If Jon wargs on over to Ghost, his body is kept alive in a coma-like state while it heals physically, and then he jumps back in, it's possible that 'undead/personality shift' angles don't even have to play into it. If that's the way it plays, for me it's one of the better plot devices introduced, as it advances the narrative (buys leeway with the Night Watch angle) without drastically altering Jon's character.

But is it possible that being a wolf for a length of time might change his personality to a much more wolf-like state?

[Brendan Moody]

I think it would be terribly cheap, and very much against the style of the series, if we got a "this kind of magic plus this other kind of magic means being stabbed repeatedly has no consequences" resolution. Warging and red magic may keep Jon alive, for certain values of "alive," but I don't think he'll get off scot-free.

[Ygritte]

I think it would be terribly cheap, and very much against the style of the series, if we got a "this kind of magic plus this other kind of magic means being stabbed repeatedly has no consequences" resolution. Warging and red magic may keep Jon alive, for certain values of "alive," but I don't think he'll get off scot-free.

Oh, I certainly don't think it'll be either easy or fun for him. :devil: But I do like the idea of a lot of seemingly random plot elements adding up to save him in some way. But then I also like prophecies as a plot element, and seeing how authors can make them work in tricky ways.

[TheMediumJon]

But is it possible that being a wolf for a length of time might change his personality to a much more wolf-like state?

That's an area where there's enough leeway for Martin to push however is best for the plot. There's really not been much hard and fast rule setting for the magic in this series, so it's a pretty open venue still. Bran was warned not to spend to much time in his direwolf, but Bran was also written (at the time) as a depressed child yearning to be away from his broken body. Jon's personality and need is different. From my perspective, I think Martin could have Jon inside of Ghost for a short time-frame (few months?) and have him come back relatively unchanged. Whether that works for other readers is an individual preference.

[TheMediumJon]

I think it would be terribly cheap, and very much against the style of the series, if we got a "this kind of magic plus this other kind of magic means being stabbed repeatedly has no consequences" resolution. Warging and red magic may keep Jon alive, for certain values of "alive," but I don't think he'll get off scot-free.

For me, here's the rub in that: If Jon is truly dead, or just hangs around as a shadow/shell, there was a mountain of time devoted to character build up that would essentially no longer be justified. I tend to think Ned Stark has been minimized as the story grew beyond Martin's original scope, and Jon Snow would be that to a factor of ten.

As always, individual mileage will vary in terms of acceptance.

[Brendan Moody]

I don't think Jon is going to be merely a shadow/shell, and he's certainly not truly dead. But there's a lot of room for him to suffer during the rehabilitation process while remaining an important character in the overall story.

[Howling North]

I think months would be pushing it, I'm fully expecting Jon, if he is in Ghost now, to be constantly fighting for control in order to prevent himself from Devolving. Bran might be the answer to saving his mind long enough to save his body and bring the two back together. At least that's what I'm going with, but we'll see anyway, I'm not expecting it to be easy or consequence free in any event.

[Slick Mongoose]

You don't want to get it the wrong way around and put Ghost's mind in Jon's body.

[Jeejee]

Well, he could just stay dead. Just as Dany might end up dying of the flux in the Dothraki Sea - no sorcerer healer is going to find her there, I assume. And I don't see her ordering the Dothraki around while dying...

Mel seems to be no resurrected R'hllorian to me - she was rather forced to drink the fire at some point during her career. And she still vividly remembers the slave auction at which she was sold, so I'd guess she is not like Beric or Cat.

So I guess although it would be fitting for her to sacrifice herself to save Jon, I doubt that this is going to happen. Mel still has no clue that Jon not Stannis might be her savior.

Jon could be revived pretty easily. By the kiss of fire, possibly also by this burning stuff Victarion's wound was saved - although I'm not sure if Mel would be there early enough to save a dying Jon this way. He seems to be already dead when the chapter ends. And he is also not consciously in Ghost, either. If he was there, he would feel more that just cold, would he not? Even if Ghost was somewhere were it was pretty cold.

Bloodraven and Bran could play a role as well - that is, if Jon's soul hangs around in Ghost. If not, then Mel is his only chance. Her chapter was, in my mind, rather pointless. That tidbit could have been shown from Jon's POV as well. But I guess GRRM sets her up to be the opening Wall POV. And she might very well supplant Jon as POV, as we don't have POVs of resurrected people as of yet, so I'm not sure why we should get any more Jon chapters. Even if he lives.

Mel's chapter tells us that her powers are augmented by the Wall. "She could do things that she had never done before." Perhaps she's capable now of reanimation, or perhaps she would be able to hear Jon's four (or more) stab wounds even after he technically dies.

Her chapter also serves as foreshadowing: she sees a "wooden face, corpse white," "a thousand red eyes," and a "boy with a wolf's face" (p.408), all in quick succession. This figure seems most likely to be Bran, who's been associated with heart trees (red eyes) and warging, but I suppose it could be Jon.

[nerd123]

Isn't avoiding death by temporarily putting your mind into an animal's body while your original body recuperates or is restored somehow a pretty common trope? I haven't read much other fantasy, but basically this exact thing happens in (spoiler about another series follows)

Hobb's Farseer Trilogy.

Does anyone know other series' that have used it?

[Misanthrope]

I think it would be terribly cheap, and very much against the style of the series, if we got a "this kind of magic plus this other kind of magic means being stabbed repeatedly has no consequences" resolution.

Such happens when a writer loses control of his narrative and a series goes south. :thumbsdown:

[Masha]

But let me say that all cheap tricks nonewithstanding, if Jon Snow is truly dead or permananently stuck in a wolf with no going back, thats the end of this series for me, too many characters build up then killed brutaly and all Starks. I have no more favorite characters left except couple of secondary.

[Misanthrope]

But let me say that all cheap tricks nonewithstanding, if Jon Snow is truly dead or permananently stuck in a wolf with no going back, thats the end of this series for me, too many characters build up then killed brutaly and all Starks. I have no more favorite characters left except couple of secondary.

I feel your pain at this point a part of me wishes I'd never started the series, and the rest wishes it had ended on a high note with SoS. Martin has lost control of his story and it really shows in the last 2 novels.

[Ran]

Whereas speaking with him the other day, he notes that his roadmap is still quite intact to what he laid out in 1994-1995. Major events like this one were planned way, way back when.

The only thing that has really changed from his original plan is chronolgy -- he had always intended the books to cover a certain amount of years, and in the writing it wasn't happening, hence the 5 year gap he tried to insert and then ditched when it wasn't workable.