[ADWD SPOILERS] The Ghost in Winterfell / "There must ALWAYS be a Stark in Winterfell

[Salander]

If it was Manderly I don't think he would have said that epic line about Little Walder growing into a Frey. It would be interesting if it was Big Walder and how this could effect the Frey's in the future.

Hmmm. I read that line as Manderly being a definite suspect (not at his hands, but by order). I think because Little Walder was betrothed to Wylla (as others have said), Manderly has motive. Look what he did to the other Freys that came a marriage calling. :unsure:

[Salander]

Super-crackpot theory for the ghost of Winterfell: Benjen Stark. :P

:thumbsup:

I'd love that.

I always thought the title referred to Theon, but now I'm not so sure.

[Auska]

The ghost is Bran:

“…Bran”' date=' the tree murmured[/quote']

Or possibly the mysterious fellow (who doesn't seem to be Theon's split personality), but there's more about that in other threads.

[banditry]

Big Walder is still alive. It was Little Walder who was killed, and quite possibly Big Walder who did the killing. Only on that murder, though - the other ones I thought it was clear that Mance's spearwives did it.

Agreed. The spearwives did the killings, and Big Walder took advantage to kill his brother; there were already hints of tension between them, and I think Big Walder fancies himself a Ramsay in the making.

[Talesin]

As far as i can see, theres really only 2 possibilities on who murdered little Walder.

We know it wasn't Theon, nor Mance and his wildlings. Lord Manderly is everyones first suspect, but he allready had a plan. He would not have risked that to kill a 9 year old boy, nor would he have made that awesome comment if he was guilty. And Ramsey is pissed enough so we can rule him out.

The only 2 that fits is 1) Big Walder who was soaked in his cousins blood. Main problem here is that he had a pretty good story on who he thought had done it. I'm having trouble with a boy coming up with something like that on the spot.

2) Mysterious hooded man that knew Theon. If Big Walder was telling the truth, then this mysterious man fits perfectly. Theon meets him after yellow dick has died, but before little Walder dies. He knows who Theon is, even calling him kinslayer, which i think only a Stark loyalist would do, as the rest only uses Turncloack. Yet, he doesn't seem to have known Theon was there, as his hand goes to the dagger as soon as he spots Theon, asking him why he is still alive. Only when Theon shows what Ramsey is doing to him, does he relax, laugh and walk away. So the only thing i can think off, is that this was one of Un-Cats men, which she sent north to slay some Freys.

Atleast his behaviour is completly different from any of the other northmen Theon encounters, and GRRM made a point of Abel/Mance playing in the background when Theon walked outside so we would know it wasn't him.

[sologdin]

it'd be slick if tom o' sevens sent blackfish to uncat, who then ordered him off north to avenge her sons--but the timeline doesn't appear to fit. "the ghost of winterfell" is two chapters prior to ADWD's "jaime," which is, conceded, after brynden's escape in AFFC's jaime VII--does that leave sufficient time for all that travel, in winter, through multiple militaries, though? or did he warg into a fish and swim all the way? did he get a funny hat and superhorse from the IBB?

[Mark3]

it'd be slick if tom o' sevens sent blackfish to uncat, who then ordered him off north to avenge her sons--but the timeline doesn't appear to fit. "the ghost of winterfell" is two chapters prior to ADWD's "jaime," which is, conceded, after brynden's escape in AFFC's jaime VII--does that leave sufficient time for all that travel, in winter, through multiple militaries, though? or did he warg into a fish and swim all the way? did he get a funny hat and superhorse from the IBB?

I really don't think the the Blackfish was the Winterfell murderer. However, the timeline doesn't preclude it. I've spent the last couple of weeks researching the ADWD/AFFC timeline...and I have Riverrun yielding about 2 and half months before Ramsay marries Jeyne.

[Marcus Cicero]

I don't think that Little Walder was killed out of any sort of revenge against the Freys. I tend to support the theory that he saw something he shouldn't have, possibly relating to the crypts.

[jxd]

I don't think it's Blackfish, he's a famous knight, he'll get recognized.

If Cat sent someone for sure it'd be to kill Ramsay.

[Suldog]

No, it would be Theon. She knows he's a Bolton hostage.

[Jenny]

Before his death Little Walder mentioned that he was going to get his silver coin.. That reminds me of the blood sacrifice in Bran's visions inside the heart tree. They had put a silver coin in his mouth and killed him..

Maybe it was kind of blood sacrifice after all. especially when winter is coming.

If I am not mistaken the place they found Little Walder is where they found Bran, and it couldn't be far from the godswood.

[Aegonmyface]

I just assumed the cloaked man was the Glover that was hiding out with Manderly for some reason. but I like the Blackfish and Benjen ideas.

[Jeejee]

Agreed. The spearwives did the killings, and Big Walder took advantage to kill his brother; there were already hints of tension between them, and I think Big Walder fancies himself a Ramsay in the making.

Actually, Little Walder is the one who most resembles Ramsay, but Big Walder is described as being different from his brother. Doesn't mean he wasn't the one to off him, though.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It took me a few rereads before I cottoned on to the fact that the spearwives were humoring Theon when they denied the other murders ("We're just women" *snicker*) and that they were the ones committing them. But they denied killing Little Walder, and I believe them.

I think Big Walder is probably the likeliest candidate, someone who used the other killings as a cover. But the Frey killing had a completely different, bloodier MO than the others, so it's clear they were committed by different people.

I don't think it was Manderly. He's too clever and discreet. He wouldn't go through the trouble of murdering and cannibalizing the other Freys, keeping a huge secret in plain sight, then go off and do something as heavy-handed as hacking Little Walder to death.

Nor do I think it was Ramsay. Little Walder was his protege. If he killed either of them, it would've been Big Walder, who wasn't buying into Ramsay's sadism.

[The Non-Human]

Absolutely!

When I first read this chapter I thought the title was a reference to Theon. Then I thought it is a reference to whoever is killing the men in Winterfell, and it kind of is that. But it dawned on me that the title is quite literal. The man Theon meets is literally the GHOST in Winterfell, as in the avenging ghost of a dead king or lord (Lord Rickard?) that Theon stumbles upon. Maybe those swords in the crypts really ARE necessary.

Stop it with the crackpot nonsense! The chapter title is in reference to Theon. He says so himself. "There are ghosts in Winterfell, and I am one of them."

As for the murders, all except Walder's are done by the spearwives. Its obvious because one of them says, "This is not our work," instead of "This is not our work either."

[LordBryndenRivers]

As to the Ghost in Winterfell:

1) Most literally, Theon. It is the title of his POV chapter, and he is like a "ghost." People have said this.

2) Bran. He is seeing through the weirwood, but not there physically, hence a "ghost."

3) The dead Starks. This one is more allusive: there are always now "ghosts" in Winterfell. (I won't get into what it means for the Starks without swords...)

It is clearly Theon directly, but it works other ways as well and that was why it was such a cool chapter title. Winterfell having the crypts, especially, is forever to be in some way or other haunted by its ghosts. The title operates on multiple levels. Every once in a while GRRM pulls something a little literary, and this was one of them, and to good effect.

[Aquaman]

I just assumed the cloaked man was the Glover that was hiding out with Manderly for some reason

That is possible or he might have gone with Davos.

I think it's more likely that Little Walder was killed by Lady Dustin's men.

[QT3.14159]

The cloaked man does recognize Theon and there is a slight spark of recognition on Theon's part as well. That's why he takes his gloves off and shows his fingers. He wanted the man to understand he wasn't who he had been.

I'm not sure who he was, but he was someone closely related to Winterfell, I think.

[georgeforeman]

Yes, it's very Agatha Christie. I hate to think what the Boltons would have made of Hercule Poirot.

A cardigan? Perhaps some nice boots? Those seem in short supply in Westeros, and Winter is Coming. :-)

Also, I think people are going about this all wrong. Little Walder was a child for chrissake. He's like 10 or something. Is the Blackfish or Manderly really going to off a kid? I kinda doubt it.

I tend to think it was someone who stood to gain something. Either his cousin (unlikely) or someone who was looking to stir up trouble between the Freys and the Manderlys, though for the life of me, I can't figure out who that would be.

[Kadence]

The Ghost in Winterfell is a dual meaning, both Theon and a secondary meaning of the murderers. Obviously the non-Little Walder killings were Mance and the spearwives.

I thought it was pretty clear that Wyman had Little Walder killed. I didn't think this was even some mystery.

Wyman hardly denied it, he was basically taunting the Freys openly over it. "I confes... I confess that I know little of this poor boy." "So young, though mayhaps this was a blessing. Had he lived, he would have grown up to be a Frey."

Really - I think that's pretty blatant. Not only did he have Little Walder killed, but's he's smugly taunting the Freys about it because he doesn't think they can do anything. Manderly has too many knights inside of Winterfell, he thinks. Combine that with Little Walder being engaged to Wylla Manderly and this doesn't seem like much of a mystery.

The Big Walder theory is interesting but Big Walder was supposed to be decent, also he's smaller than Little Walder. The notion of him brutalizing Little Walder seems pretty unrealistic. I think his story about the bet with the White Harbor men was just the truth.