[ADWD SPOILERS] The Ghost in Winterfell / "There must ALWAYS be a Stark in Winterfell

[Lord Garth Formerly Izar]

It's Theon's severed peepee

[Dolorous J]

The ghost is Hot Pie.

He was at Harrenhal for a while so he knows all about ghosts

[Murmur]

To play devil's advocate - is it possible that Big Walder found Little Walder, got the blood on him, and then ran for help, during which time the blood froze?

I suppose even flowing blood doesn't spatter. It might explain why he had it on him, but not a spray pattern.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

To play devil's advocate - is it possible that Big Walder found Little Walder, got the blood on him, and then ran for help, during which time the blood froze?

I suppose even flowing blood doesn't spatter. It might explain why he had it on him, but not a spray pattern.

He did have a spray pattern. p. 675: "Big Walder, the little one, fox-faced and skinny as a stick. His chest and arms and cloak were spattered with blood. ...The boys gloves were caked with his cousin's blood."

Frozen blood doesn't spatter. Hosteen Frey is not spattered and he carried the body from where it was found to the hall. Clearly BW cut LW, the blood sprayed, and then he got blood all over his hands. Big Walder did this one.

[Tagganaro]

He did have a spray pattern. p. 675: "Big Walder, the little one, fox-faced and skinny as a stick. His chest and arms and cloak were spattered with blood. ...The boys gloves were caked with his cousin's blood."

Frozen blood doesn't spatter. Hosteen Frey is not spattered and he carried the body from where it was found to the hall. Clearly BW cut LW, the blood sprayed, and then he got blood all over his hands. Big Walder did this one.

I agree with the idea that the blood shouldn't be spattered on Big Walder, but it seems crazy that he would kill his own brother. I mean, Big Walder's supposed to be the nice one right haha? But I agree, good catch with the spatter thing, it definitely seems suspicious.

[FicusFan]

Hi All,

I am new and have been lurking and thought I would make my first post.

I wonder if the hooded man could be the Stark retainer sent north with Ned's bones ? I forget the name (I think its in one of the appendices). He was sent and has never officially emerged in the north. He could be dead, but could also have been scoping things out, waiting for the right moment to do maximum damage.

Theon and the Ned-Hating-Lady were in the crypt and she (GRRM) brought up the missing bones. The guy would know Winterfell, and Theon and Arya. If he was not an officer type Theon may not know/remember him. He was surprised Theon was alive so he didn't see him give Arya away. Which may mean he has been 'outside ' or in the broken towers/outbuildings/crypt the whole time. He hasn't seen Arya, so doesn't know she is fake.

Also in terms of mayhem, I thought the stable collapse and all those deaths were not accidental or an act of nature. It could have been, but it also could have been deliberate (weakening the structure).

If I have to pick a ghost I would go with Bran. I think his greenseeing got him to the godswood and his warging got him into someone. So there may be multiple killers.

I like the idea that the dead Starks are a problem if there is no Stark in Winterfell (and perhaps the swords have something to do with it). It was mentioned as far back as GOT when Robert was going on about where Lyanna was buried, that Starks have to be buried there. They seem to be more concerned about where their bones are buried and that the graves are kept/visited. We have seen 'dead' doesn't always mean gone.

I don't think the spearwives response means they did it (sarcasm). They would want to be seen as dangerous and powerful, even if they are not the ones doing the killing. They also seem to despise Theon for his fear, so they would like to rattle his cage and make him do what they want and would not be above lying.

Re: Howland Reed. I read on-line somewhere that GRRM said in answer to a question that he would never appear in the books, because he has too much information. Don't remember more, and have no link.

Re: Dune. Catelyn = Jessica, Robb = Paul Atreides (young version), wights with Blue Eyes = Spice Eyes.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

I agree with the idea that the blood shouldn't be spattered on Big Walder, but it seems crazy that he would kill his own brother. I mean, Big Walder's supposed to be the nice one right haha? But I agree, good catch with the spatter thing, it definitely seems suspicious.

Who knows how BW was provoked? We don't see much of them in this book, though we do see them in ACoK, and LW is an asshole. BW also expresses very adamantly that someday HE will be Lord of the Crossing. LW points out how many people are ahead of him (the Freys seem very aware of who is in what order for the succession) and BW is like, you just wait. It does seem very unlikely that a little kid would do that to his own cousin, which is why no one even thinks to notice the meaning of the spatters, BUT... these are Freys we're taking about, who have been fostered at Dreadfort. Frightening, but I think that's what happened.

[Lord Damian]

There are some creepy things kind of hinted at regarding the dead Starks. Ravenblood told Bran "not to call his father back from the dead". There must always be a Stark in Winterfell... because, the warding of the premises keeps the dead Starks from emerging from the crypt to walk again? I know, crazy right? Explain uncat, ungregor, coldhands, whyte walkers. I would love to see when the North is in its darkest hour, the Crypt at Winterfell opened and see emerging in Stone armored effigies with their swords and stone wolves coming forward from the grave to fight for their land, their people. That would be a site. We would see Eddard again. We may or may not.

[Whatever]

Stark Zombies? God, i LOVE it!

[merchantkingpriest]

"The Ghost in Winterfell" is Theon, as that's the title of the chapter, and he is the PoV. That's a strict rule, right?

He didn't commit the murders though--Abel did most likely, with the help of his wenches.

It seems like a rule, but not altogether a strict one. For instance Asha POVs a chapter called "the sacrifice" and while a few people get burned and sacrificed to R'hollor, she remains safe

[dragginstoned]

Before we get further into crackpottery... lets take a look.

We dont know that the hooded man did anything other than appear and taunt Theon. He'll be back. I agree with the other poster that he deserves his own thread.

I dont think he killed Big Walder. If he did he would have killed others as well.

Mance's little amazon death squad did all the other killings and the stable collaspe (to get rid of some horses to help with their planned escape) and pretty much confessed directly to theon.

So....

Manderly? maybe... but he is not impulsive or oppoutunistic. He doesnt need to kill Walder now, he's planning on it, after he deals with Roose and gets Rickon back.

Lady Dunstin? Nope.

Who gains the most from that death and is oppourtunistic? Who makes a move immediately afterwords?

Roose Bolton! He uses it as an excuse to get troops marching, get mouths out of winterfell, and set the Frey's on Manderly outside the gates.

Think about it, he's the only one with a planned reaction to Little Walder's death

[Whatever]

@dragginstoned: interesting, but i don't think bolton would have done it by himself. And i'm not sure he gave the order either.. but i still like it. It's the 2nd most logical explaination after Little Walder, imo.

Great call :thumbsup:

[Tagganaro]

Before we get further into crackpottery... lets take a look.

We dont know that the hooded man did anything other than appear and taunt Theon. He'll be back. I agree with the other poster that he deserves his own thread.

I dont think he killed Big Walder. If he did he would have killed others as well.

Mance's little amazon death squad did all the other killings and the stable collaspe (to get rid of some horses to help with their planned escape) and pretty much confessed directly to theon.

So....

Manderly? maybe... but he is not impulsive or oppoutunistic. He doesnt need to kill Walder now, he's planning on it, after he deals with Roose and gets Rickon back.

Lady Dunstin? Nope.

Who gains the most from that death and is oppourtunistic? Who makes a move immediately afterwords?

Roose Bolton! He uses it as an excuse to get troops marching, get mouths out of winterfell, and set the Frey's on Manderly outside the gates.

Think about it, he's the only one with a planned reaction to Little Walder's death

Interesting theory, but I don't think Bolton would really gain much from that. Bolton is trying desperately to hold the North together through the Freys and Manderleys, whereas killing Big Walder actually got the Freys to go at the Manderleys with swords. Roose isn't looking to provoke both sides, which killing BW would obviously do.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

Who gains the most from that death and is oppourtunistic? Who makes a move immediately afterwords?

Roose Bolton! He uses it as an excuse to get troops marching, get mouths out of winterfell, and set the Frey's on Manderly outside the gates.

Think about it, he's the only one with a planned reaction to Little Walder's death

How do you explain the blood spatters on BW's clothing and the fact that his hands were caked in blood, when Hosteen Frey was not and he carried the body? BW killed LW. It's right there in the text. I hope someone asks Martin about this at a signing, b/c it seems pretty clear to me, and is the most chilling option to boot. It's amply foreshadowed, too, in the stuff we see of them in ACoK.

[darrylzero]

Not really, the BWB are a very bad possibility.

The BWB have the motivation to kill Freys - but only one Frey is killed in Winterfell (& you've already got Manderly, Theon and the surviving Walder all with good reason to get the knives out for him), the other deaths are of Northmen belonging to houses who also lost men in the Red Wedding.

The BWB have the motivation to rescue Arya, but that assumes that Brienne doesn't tell the BWB that a fake Arya was provided to marry Ramsey and also that they somehow found out that the wedding was going to occur, that it was going to occur in Winterfell, then that they managed to send one or more of their number to Winterfell and then that they decide not to rescue Arya afterall but just to randomly murder people instead.

I think that based on the timing, if Harwin or someone else from the BwB is the hooded man, he would have left before Brienne would have had the chance to confirm Arya as a fake. However, that doesn't make it a straight rescue mission, necessarily. They could be suspicious and send someone to determine whether or not it really is Arya.

I also think LW is the only potential death that would be attributable to Harwin or whoever. The rest would be Abel & the spearwives.

PS, for those asking about a thread for the hooded man specifically, there is one. Here:

[The Brandon Stark]

I kinda think it is someone from the BWB. Harwin maybe. Tom O' Sevens is in Riverrun, why not have someone infiltrate Winterfell and Harwin makes the most sense. Frey seem to fall like flies when the BWB is concerned.

[The Dead Walk]

In re-reading the passages from COK and DWD about the theft of swords from the crypts, I noticed something odd; I’m not sure if this has been mentioned previously. In COK we are told that Osha took the sword from Ned’s statue, Meera took Rickard’s and Bran took his namesake Brandon’s.

In DWD, Theon and Lady Dustin notice that Rickard’s and Brandon’s swords are missing. But Theon doesn’t recognize the first statute that they notice has no sword. This should be Ned’s statue, but it’s a different one, since there are rust marks showing where the sword was removed.

Is this just a minor goof by Martin?

[Sand Flower in the Snow]

In re-reading the passages from COK and DWD about the theft of swords from the crypts, I noticed something odd; I’m not sure if this has been mentioned previously. In COK we are told that Osha took the sword from Ned’s statue, Meera took Rickard’s and Bran took his namesake Brandon’s.

In DWD, Theon and Lady Dustin notice that Rickard’s and Brandon’s swords are missing. But Theon doesn’t recognize the first statute that they notice has no sword. This should be Ned’s statue, but it’s a different one, since there are rust marks showing where the sword was removed.

Is this just a minor goof by Martin?

I am very interested in this answer as well........

[The Bastard's Daughter]

In re-reading the passages from COK and DWD about the theft of swords from the crypts, I noticed something odd; I’m not sure if this has been mentioned previously. In COK we are told that Osha took the sword from Ned’s statue, Meera took Rickard’s and Bran took his namesake Brandon’s.

In DWD, Theon and Lady Dustin notice that Rickard’s and Brandon’s swords are missing. But Theon doesn’t recognize the first statute that they notice has no sword. This should be Ned’s statue, but it’s a different one, since there are rust marks showing where the sword was removed.

Is this just a minor goof by Martin?

[The Bastard's Daughter]

Apologies but managed to miss my response

Hodor took the 4th sword from the tomb of one of the old kings

(credit to many other people on other threads)