[ADWD SPOILERS] The Ghost in Winterfell / "There must ALWAYS be a Stark in Winterfell

[Maoltuile]

I like the idea of it being Harwin as I've been wondering if he would show up again. He could at least be used to provide the information that Arya escaped King's Landing to someone who wanted to put the screws to the Boltons.

Agreed. It's time for House Stark's surviving retainers to start coming back into the story.

Actually, reading the comments about Harwin made me think of Gurney Halleck, and the downfall of House Atreides; which had a number of striking parallels with the fate of the Starks. Is GRRM a huge Dune fan?

[fethi]

Is there a separate thread for the hooded man? If not, there is definitely a need for it.

I would be most happy if the hooded man is revealed to be a well-known, previously encountered character (without hurting the overall plot too much), but I don't have a good guess of my own. I don't like the taste of the hooded man being a minor character (like Harwin), or a new one, but that's just subjective.

Also, the hooded man as split personality Theon sounds to me less crackpotty than it would in most other settings. It is emphasized that Reek and Theon are clearly two different personas and there is a drift from one to the other. GRRM seems to want to redeem Theon (sth I am unhappy about), so that fits that story arc as well since everyone hates Freys and moreover little Walder was portrayed as a Ramsey in making. On a second thought Howland Reed or Blackfish do not sound very off to me either, maybe my believability standards are low.

[williamjm]

OK I see where you are coming from now on this. But I don't agree, I don't get a sense that their responses are sarcastic and more importantly it doesn't make any sense for them to be murdering people in Winterfell when what they want to do is sneak out with Arya.

The assumption I made when reading it was that the spearwives had killed the various victims because their victims had made some sort of unpleasant sexual advances towards them and they had responded with violence, which is probably the normal way spearwives would respond to that situation. The manner of Yellow Dick's death and mutilation does seem to fit with this motive. I seem to remember that Reek initially assumes they are whores when he sees them, probably many of the other men in the castle made the same assumption and with a large number of men trapped in a snowed-in castle with a small number of women trouble is inevitable.

No need to envoke Robett Glover. Manderly's got three hundred men including one hundred knights which gives him means, motive and plenty of opportunity if you want to make a case for Manderly as responsible for the murder of Little Walder.

Many of the other Northmen would also have means, motive and opportunity. The Manderlys aren't the only house to have lost people during the Red Wedding so there are other suspects, one of the Umbers, for example. That said, although they are potential suspects I don't think any of them are responsible.

[Lummel]

Is there a separate thread for the hooded man? If not, there is definitely a need for it.

Dunno. I'm increasingly of the opinion it's Theon. Looking at the chapter again Theon is the only person in the castle courtyard in the middle of a snow storm and he doesn't meet anybody else other than this hooded man.

The assumption I made when reading it was that the spearwives had killed the various victims because their victims had made some sort of unpleasant sexual advances towards them and they had responded with violence, which is probably the normal way spearwives would respond to that situation. The manner of Yellow Dick's death and mutilation does seem to fit with this motive. I seem to remember that Reek initially assumes they are whores when he sees them, probably many of the other men in the castle made the same assumption and with a large number of men trapped in a snowed-in castle with a small number of women trouble is inevitable.

...

Many of the other Northmen would also have means, motive and opportunity. The Manderlys aren't the only house to have lost people during the Red Wedding so there are other suspects, one of the Umbers, for example. That said, although they are potential suspects I don't think any of them are responsible.

Yes certainly no love lost for the Freys, but really for most Northern Lords if you want revenge for the Red Wedding (& like you say they pretty much all do) you'd go after one of the adult Freys. There's a fairly small number of people who have a motive to kill Little Walder.

Manderly conceivably as Little Walder is betrothed to his granddaughter, potentially a Frey to remove him from the succession and Theon because Little Walder is modelling himself on Ramsey.

Yeah, I see where you are coming from with the Spearwives, but just thinking back to Osha at the Autumn feast my impression was that Spearwives where able to take care of themselves without having to go as far as murdering a man

[Saber]

Is there a separate thread for the hooded man? If not, there is definitely a need for it.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned it here other than implication, since there was another thread on this topic in which most people eventually agreed that the hooded man that Theon encountered was... Theon.

Theon's whole arc is about identity, and the theory that prevailed in the other thread is that he developed multiple personality disorder due to his situation. The hooded man is basically Theon Durden.

- It was mentioned a couple of times that he isn't sleeping much, if at all. He's been walking all over the castle instead.

- There's a line that I can't quote right now, but he basically sits down for breakfast and the next line, without any other mention of the passing of time, it's around lunch time.

- Theon encounters the hooded man at the ruins of the Winterfell greenhouse. The theory is that he's seeing his own reflection in a pane of glass.

- It's not Abel since Theon leaves the hall while Abel is playing, and the hooded man encounters him coming from the other direction.

Those first 3 points could have been lifted directly from the pages of Fight Club, and the last completely rules out the most obvious choice.

[Bishop437]

The ghost in winterfell is Theon. Its his POV.... That's how these things work. As to who killed little walder I think it was Ramsey. Too eagar to kill the manderlys I think. Can't blame him. If I was bolten I would come up with some pretext to kill them if I could.

[jxd]

The only two deaths that are confirmed murders are Yellow Dick and Little Walder, (the others are suspicious but can still be accidents), both of them are Ramsay's men and Theon's tormentors, so Theon definitely had the motives for both.

[paddydubh]

The only two deaths that are confirmed murders are Yellow Dick and Little Walder, (the others are suspicious but can still be accidents), both of them are Ramsay's men and Theon's tormentors, so Theon definitely had the motives for both.

Yes Theon had the motive but Yellow Dick's death is confirmed by the Spearwives when Theon blames them for Little Walder's death.

It is possible he killed Little Walder as a split personality.

[Auska]

The assumption I made when reading it was that the spearwives had killed the various victims because their victims had made some sort of unpleasant sexual advances towards them and they had responded with violence, which is probably the normal way spearwives would respond to that situation. The manner of Yellow Dick's death and mutilation does seem to fit with this motive. I seem to remember that Reek initially assumes they are whores when he sees them, probably many of the other men in the castle made the same assumption and with a large number of men trapped in a snowed-in castle with a small number of women trouble is inevitable.

The women were specifically pretending to be prostitutes.

[Forseti]

I posted this on another thread as well.

I'm pretty sure Manderly is behind the slaughter of Little Walder. He used the word "mayhaps" in his claim of ignorance about the boy, and that's license to assault the Lord of the Crossing, Walder Frey.

[Murmur]

Outlandish theory: Bran warged into various individuals who visited the godswood to exact vengeance. It explains all of the following points that were brought up previously:

1) Knew Theon by sight immediately.

2) Bore him considerable ill-will.

3) Was surprised that he's still alive.

4) Managed to be unrecognized by Theon.

We know it's possible - he's done it before with Hodor, and now that his greenseeing powers have been augmented, well, why not? Bran hated Little Walder, it also serves to explain why that murder was a butchery.

[Pie-born]

It was Little Walder who was killed, and quite possibly Big Walder who did the killing

I like this idea.

And I wanna say hi to everyone here.

And I think Old Nan escaped from Dreadfort and now she's killing everyone at Winterfell :P

You know, I think she was the first Faceless Men :ph34r:

[ferthepoet]

Could it be someone from the BWB infiltrated in Winterfell, would make sense for them to try to rescue "Arya" and aren't they the ones that all about killing Freys?

[Lord Damian]

The BWB are a very good possibility, Theon, Bran does not really know about the details of the Red Wedding, so I doubt it is him. Lets face it, GRRM is only hinting. More details regarding the Castle of Winterfell and the surroundings will be forthcoming in hopefully the next novel.

[Whatever]

I posted this on another thread as well.

I'm pretty sure Manderly is behind the slaughter of Little Walder. He used the word "mayhaps" in his claim of ignorance about the boy, and that's license to assault the Lord of the Crossing, Walder Frey.

i didn't notice this. cool! :bowdown:

[Lummel]

The BWB are a very good possibility,

Not really, the BWB are a very bad possibility.

The BWB have the motivation to kill Freys - but only one Frey is killed in Winterfell (& you've already got Manderly, Theon and the surviving Walder all with good reason to get the knives out for him), the other deaths are of Northmen belonging to houses who also lost men in the Red Wedding.

The BWB have the motivation to rescue Arya, but that assumes that Brienne doesn't tell the BWB that a fake Arya was provided to marry Ramsey and also that they somehow found out that the wedding was going to occur, that it was going to occur in Winterfell, then that they managed to send one or more of their number to Winterfell and then that they decide not to rescue Arya afterall but just to randomly murder people instead.

[Analog_Filter_2011]

Howland Reed.

Kidding or not, it had to be said. There's also no exact proof that Theon knew him, only that he "Oddly, was not afraid".

Howland Reed is about due for an introduction. He is the unknown man in the cloak! I like it!

In Theon's 2nd POV...Ramsay's party was in Bog Devil territory too, so there's no reason not to think Howland Reed didn't sneak into the group as a freerider travelling on the way up to Winterfell. Remember when Theon nearly got shot with a poisoned arrow outside the door into the tower at Moat Cailin? They were quite close to Greywater Watch, right in Howland's Reed's backyard.

I'm putting money on Howland Reed at the moment...

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

Big Walder killed Little Walder. LW was frozen when Hosteen Frey brought him in, yet Big Walder is covered in spatters of blood. Frozen blood doesn't spatter. LW was stabbed, blood sprayed out, got on BW (whose gloves and arms were also caked with blood, which would not happen if he found LW's frozen body). I think LW provoked BW too far in his attempts to be like Ramsay, and also BW is convinced that he is going to be Lord of the Crossing someday, and at #60 or so on the list, that's not going to happen unless he offs someone.

[Sid2]

Snow slid from Ser Hosteen’s cloaks as he stalked toward the high table, his steps ringing against the floor. A dozen Frey knights and men-at-arms entered behind him. One was a boy Theon knew—Big Walder, the little one, fox-faced and skinny as a stick. His chest and arms and cloak were spattered with blood.

The scent of it set the horses to screaming. Dogs slid out from under the tables, sniffing. Men rose from the benches. The body in Ser Hosteen’s arms sparkled in the torchlight, armored in pink frost. The cold outside had frozen his blood.

As far as Little Walder's murder is concerned, it seems clear that Big Walder did it.

(edit) Ha, someone beat me to the punch while I was looking up the quotes!

[dembos]

Maester Luwin totally :P