[ADWD Spoilers] Jon Snow (cont'd)

[YellowDogJen]

Jumping in to note that Mormont's raven calls Jon "King" when it also calls him by his full name.

Jon will live and be a king. Of what, I'm not sure - although I hope it's King of Westeros, and not of the Others!

[Ygritte]

Jumping in to note that Mormont's raven calls Jon "King" when it also calls him by his full name.

Jon will live and be a king. Of what, I'm not sure - although I hope it's King of Westeros, and not of the Others!

That adds to my theory that the weirwood network knows a lot about Jon's background, and that Bran may eventually be the way that info gets out! :)

[Itkovian]

All this speculating is fun. Looking forward to the next book!

Oh god, I think I just broke my soul.

Itkovian

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I think the MMD blood magic on Drogo is perfect here, because it revives the body but not the spirit, whereas Jon can save his spirit in Ghost.

[Toe]

Seems far too many people here are writing off Jon. I do not think Martin has ever killed a character in a cliffhanger. Brienne, Davos, and Arya appeared hale and healthy in the next book. Let us not forget Mel. Either she can heal him or at worst do a Thoros style resurrection.

[jurble]

Seems far too many people here are writing off Jon. I do not think Martin has ever killed a character in a cliffhanger. Brienne, Davos, and Arya appeared hale and healthy in the next book. Let us not forget Mel. Either she can heal him or at worst do a Thoros style resurrection.

Pretty sure all of like 5 people think Jon is totally dead. People far wiser know he is only mostly dead.

[Dolourous UndEdd]

Jumping in to note that Mormont's raven calls Jon "King" when it also calls him by his full name.

Jon will live and be a king. Of what, I'm not sure - although I hope it's King of Westeros, and not of the Others!

Hmm, that reminds me. In the prologue Varamyr reflects that Ghost would make for a second life fit for a king. A bit of foreshadowing mayhap ...

[Wouter]

Melisandre providing Thoros' kiss of fire simply won't do. Jon Snow does not need to become a wight. We've had all sorts of UnLife. We have had UnBerric's, UnCat and UnBenjen. We don't need another UnJon -- and AA's prophecy needs more to be fulfilled and for Jon to be reborn.

What Jon needs is an honest-to-goodness ressurection and restoration of human life in all its warmth, glory and vulnerability. And no, we haven't seen anybody restored to such perfection yet at any time in the series. Khal Drogo was not a warg and so MMD could not restore him to full health (and would not have done so even if she could have). However, Jon Snow's warg consciousness together with the spells of preservation in the base of the Wall makes a full restoration of his mortal human body possible. That's the spell he needs.

Only Death can pay for Life. That's where Ghost, regrettably, comes in.

You are kinda half-convincing me here. And I don't like that, I want Ghost to live. :worried:

Could see it go either way. Bran's dreams ("all memory of warmth escaping him") and Jon's own dream about fighting with a flaming sword may point to animation Beric-style, but the possibility of MMD-style complete resurrection (+ conserved soul in wolf) is also convincing. Hmmm.

Beric had a lightsword? Didn't Thoros confess that it was fake with alchemy fire and not real?

Thoros admits that about his own flaming swords, which he used to carry in battle. This is not about Beric's swords though; in the fight with the Hound, he lights it on fire with his own blood (which is now implied to be filled with firemagic, post-kiss of fire). No tricks.

Hmm, that reminds me. In the prologue Varamyr reflects that Ghost would make for a second life fit for a king. A bit of foreshadowing mayhap ...

That seems bloody likely. Good catch :thumbsup:

[Mark Antony]

Hmm, that reminds me. In the prologue Varamyr reflects that Ghost would make for a second life fit for a king. A bit of foreshadowing mayhap ...

yeah damn good call

[nategator]

Sorry, but I got to call bullshit.

The idea that Jon's soul would be stored in Ghost and then transferred back to his body in order to providing a shocking reincarnation is a great idea.

Too bad it's been done by

Robin Hobb in the Farseer Trilogy

No way that George RR ("better than Tolkein" - NYT) Martin is going to rip off another author's biggest plot twist. Especially since GRRM has spoken very highly of said author in the two have worked together in one of the anthology that Martin edited.

Not. Going. To. Happen.

[Blue Steel]

Sorry, but I got to call bullshit.

The idea that Jon's soul would be stored in Ghost and then transferred back to his body in order to providing a shocking reincarnation is a great idea.

Too bad it's been done by

Robin Hobb in the Farseer Trilogy

No way that George RR ("better than Tolkein" - NYT) Martin is going to rip off another author's biggest plot twist. Especially since GRRM has spoken very highly of said author in the two have worked together in one of the anthology that Martin edited.

Not. Going. To. Happen.

Think of the name of the direwolf - Ghost. It's going to happen.

[jurble]

I mean, Mel could always pull Jon out of Ghost and stick him in someone else's body, just for a curveball.

[GDSage]

Hmm, that reminds me. In the prologue Varamyr reflects that Ghost would make for a second life fit for a king. A bit of foreshadowing mayhap ...

Cool catch. To add to this, Melisandre's vision in her POV:

The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him. Melisandre had seen his danger before, had tried to warn the boy of it. Enemies all around him, daggers in the dark. He would not listen.

From man, to wolf, back to man again? Hm.... Also that daggers in the dark comment. Dark = Nights Watch. It's a wonder Melisandre can ever perceive anything right if her visions are this vague.

[Shahrizai]

Some people seem to think that Jon was killed because he wanted to go south to Winterfell.

Ney, I say.

People, you are forgetting Grey Wind and the RW.

Ghost started acting strange since the day the wildlings passed through the Wall.

Since there was only on wildling(and his damn boar) and Bowen Marsh, Jon believed Ghost was trying to kill the pig(You know nothing, Jon Snow). But Ghost was trying to warn him about his sworn brother.

The next days Ghost was acting strangely every time he was outside(surrounded by NW traitors) but Jon put it to the boar again.

Even after Ghost actually tried to bite off a hand of a NW man, he didn't considered the fact that the direwolf was trying to warn him about his brothers, not the wildling and the pig.

Bowen and his gang are stupid enough to believe the wildling are their enemies. He even says that the NW are at the wall to protect the realm from wildlings. The only duty of the NW id to protect the realms of men and fight the Others. The Wall wasn't built to keep the wildlings out, but the White Walkers.

But since the real enemies lied dormant for nearly 8000 years, they forgot their purpose and changed their targets.

By helping the wildlings, Jon protects the men, increases the number of people defending the Wall several times over, and makes sure the Others will be 3000 short(more if they save some wilds from Hardhome) when they will gather their wights.

Marsh was going to kill Jon that day, even if he was going to Hardhome or Winterfell. It had to be done that day because once gone, the wildlings would have more time to establish a strong base.

Even the weak wilds women can be used to clean, cook, hunt, etc, freeing many NW members so they can stand guard at the Wall. But a weak and sickly woman can be as dangerous as any other wight, and much harder to kill. I pity the fools that will have to fight a giant wight or a dead mamoth. By taking them south of the Wall Jon is both strengthening his forces and weaken the enemy.

And from Asha's chapters we see how hard it is to move troops through the harsh winter. Even if the south will send troops to the Wall, many will not make it alive. But they won't do it, because Dorne will most likely join the fight, Griff as well, Lann will fight Tyrells, Boltons are more likely to attack the NW than reinforce the Wall, so they are alone.

And let's not forget the encounters between NW and wights.

One wight tries to kill Mormont. They kill it, Jon is wounded, they burn the entire tower in the process.

The other wight kills a knight even after it lost it's own head.

They do a massive ranging. 250+ dead and only one White Walker and some wights are killed. NW loses many of it's best members.

Wildlings on the other hand are very experienced in dealing with the Others. Tormund says that even if Jon killed a wight, Mance killed over a hundred.

At the moment, the NW has under 1000 men. If Jon is not resurrected very fast, there will be bloodshed between wildlings and NW. And not all of the NW agrees with Marsh and his lackeys. So by the end of the fight, even if the NW survives by some miracle, they will only have several hundred soldier, without any hope of reinforcement for a very long time, against the entire army of the White Walkers. They are just .....

I love this post. Especially the part about the real enemy lying dormant and everyone's priorities getting all screwed. I felt like it was a good instinct of Jon's to help the people at Hardhome by sending the ships, even if that was just because he didn't want them being killed and rising again as wights. But once the ships failed the march would definitely not have been worth it.

[Cilldara]

I mean, Mel could always pull Jon out of Ghost and stick him in someone else's body, just for a curveball.

Sorta hoping against hope here (and I think someone said it in the first thread), I really hope that Jon is just saved by normal, mundane means if he's not just dead, and it's extremely unlikely that he is just dead.

Mel still has her some of her spices and all that jazz left? Perhaps with the right combination and, allowing for some small bit of religious magic to speed things up, a small prayer, the next we'll see of Jon will be beheading Marsh et al for their attempted assisination. That's if Tormund doesn't cause blue murder in the immediate aftermath. Who knows what could happen and who's going to be left.

[Keilen]

When Daenerys looks at the tent where the maegi is doing bloodmagic in AGOT, she sees "the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames." I think that this might be a hint that Mellisandre will be doing some bloodmagic involving Jon and Ghost.

[Steve Moss]

As for Jon fulfilling prophecy, I think it's an excellent deduction. The elements are there, in very unexpected forms, which is definitely GRRM's style. The star, the smoke, the tears. And as for the sword, do we REALLY need the sword to actually be flaming? Could it not be metaphorical or at least unexpected like every other single element of the prophecy?

After all, if the prophecy hold, it wasn't an actual star that was bleeding. Why would the sword need to be flaming? It was pulled out of the flames, sure enough, and was forged in dragonfire in the first place. AND it will almost certainly burn through Others as well as obsidian. Having flames leaping is all nice and flashy, but not necessary IMO. Legends tend to be far more flashy and spectacular than the reality, and Longclaw in its current state could definitely fit the bill.

There is a line in one of the Dany chapters about dragons being the equivalent of a flaming sword dropping out of the sky.

[Yarl Snow]

Cool catch. To add to this, Melisandre's vision in her POV:

The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him. Melisandre had seen his danger before, had tried to warn the boy of it. Enemies all around him, daggers in the dark. He would not listen.

From man, to wolf, back to man again? Hm.... Also that daggers in the dark comment. Dark = Nights Watch. It's a wonder Melisandre can ever perceive anything right if her visions are this vague.

I like this. With Varamyr's comment, Mel seeing Jon change from man to wolf and back to man, it seems to foreshadow Jon being reborn. As has been mentioned, they will probably keep Jon's corpse as proof he is dead, and then we have Dany's prophecy: A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.

It came to me when reading about the theories of Lightbringer.. it seems almost certain that Daenerys is the Prince that was Promised. Even Maester Aemon seemed certain of it. But if so, what is Jon? Dany's Lightbringer would be her dragons. And... The Song of Ice and Fire. Dany is Fire, Jon is Ice.

Could there be two PtwP? One Ice, one Fire?

[Reyne]

I like this. With Varamyr's comment, Mel seeing Jon change from man to wolf and back to man, it seems to foreshadow Jon being reborn. As has been mentioned, they will probably keep Jon's corpse as proof he is dead, and then we have Dany's prophecy: A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.

It came to me when reading about the theories of Lightbringer.. it seems almost certain that Daenerys is the Prince that was Promised. Even Maester Aemon seemed certain of it. But if so, what is Jon? Dany's Lightbringer would be her dragons. And... The Song of Ice and Fire. Dany is Fire, Jon is Ice.

Could there be two PtwP? One Ice, one Fire?

I like this theory very much. Do we know, though that the PtwP and Azor Ahai reborn are the same person?

The prophecy is "When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone."

The red star bleeds:

Dany - the Red Comet

Jon Snow - Ser Patrek of King's Mountain has a blue star for his sigil. Covered with blood and guts, it would be red (and bleeding)

Smoke and salt:

Dany - the funeral pyre and her tears. Or Dragonstone, where she was born.

Jon Snow: Salt was from Bowen Marsh's tears. Smoke was from his wound ("In the cold night air the wound was smoking.")

Wake dragons out of stone:

Dany - Duh

Jon Snow - To be seen...

When Daenerys looks at the tent where the maegi is doing bloodmagic in AGOT, she sees "the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames." I think that this might be a hint that Mellisandre will be doing some bloodmagic involving Jon and Ghost.

When I read that, my interpretation were that the figures in the tent were representations of the gods. The Old Golds, and R'hllor, respectively.

[jack88]

Yeah, I like Jon's prophecy signs more than Dany's, but where exactly is Jon gonna be waking dragons up from?

The dragon under Winterfell? I always assumed that was just a fairytale. There's always those dragon statues on Dragonstone, I would shit my pants if they WERE actually real dragons at one point instead of just statues.