[ADWD spoilers] Jon Snow's Fate

[nothatso]

Having to kill Qhorin Halfhand was rough, I agree, but he didn't--Ghost did. Losing Ygritte was rough too, but tons of guys lost their wives in childbirth before modern medicine.

Ghost did not kill Qhorin, he just bit him in the leg.

...and you really don't think Jon was close to any of his family? Not even Robb?

[Abel]

ps: speculations from Brienne's idea of the direwolves' names having meaning

Ghost = Jon resurrection

Summer = Bran brings about the end of Winter

Shaggy Dog = Rickon becomes wild feral creature

Grey Wind = Robb's death

Lady = Way too innocent to live/death of the romantic in Sansa

Nymeria = Queen/Arya is not only only going to get to kill lots of people but will also rule in one way or another as well.

i`m a believer, too!!

although i`m not quite sure about the whole interpretations.

another thing, bran wanted to name summer at first ghost, too, at least was really disappointed that the name was already gone. and it`s fitting in some way, too, cause bran is actually some kind of ghost atm

also this shaggy dog thing can be referred to skagos. sounds like a wild,feral place.

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

I think Jon has had a lot of plot protection and hasn't gone through the degree of trauma that the other POVs have experienced. He hasn't lost a limb, been crippled, been hideous from birth, been forced to marry someone against his will, lost a child, been tortured or been homeless for years (I'm referring to Arya here, and I don't count Jon's stint with the wildlings as being homeless because he was with a cohesive community). The one traumatic event that he has endured was being forced to kill Qhorin Halfhand, but his wolf took care of that one for him.

More to the point, none of the characters in this story achieve greatness except by dint of horrible suffering. If Jon is to become Azor Ahai Reborn or whatever, he needs to go through something horrific.

Physical disfigurement is not the only way a person can be harmed. Psychology and emotions play a huge part in it as well. The kid has seen his entire family decimated and he was helpless, scratch that, he CHOSE not to abandon his vows. And he did this at an age probably younger than when Aemon was faced with news of Aerys' demise. That shows immense fortitude in itself. He obeyed his own commanding officer and killed him. He lived with enemies, fully aware that they would kill him if he so much as flinched.

Then he fights against his girlfriend's war band and is racked with guilt and grief over the death of another person who he loved. Then he had to deal with Slynt and his cronies and be branded a traitor. He sent away his best friend and dared to deceive a King who burns traitors. He showed immense political and realistic aptitude when dealing with the wildlings. Bodily harm does not a great character make. The wounds inside hurt just as much and characters such as Jon are non-existent in ASoIaF which is why the series suffers. And at the end of ADWD, we see a cheap gimmick of 'bodily harm' done to him so that he can come back from the dead. I'm sure many ardent fans of ASoIaF made fun of

Harry Potter spoilers

Harry Potter's resurrection

and yet the same thing is being done here.

Another thing that puzzles me is this Tyrion worship. He has the most charmed life of any character I've read in any book. He was good for a few laughs in ACOK, but as a character he pales against the lowliest of the low characters in ASoIaF. Even Podrick Payne.

[Lilith of Tarth]

Dany's birthing the dragons/living through fire scene in GoT was one of the best scenes in the whole series. Wonder if Jon will have a scene to match that.

[Olenna]

Physical disfigurement is not the only way a person can be harmed. Psychology and emotions play a huge part in it as well. The kid has seen his entire family decimated and he was helpless, scratch that, he CHOSE not to abandon his vows. And he did this at an age probably younger than when Aemon was faced with news of Aerys' demise. That shows immense fortitude in itself. He obeyed his own commanding officer and killed him. He lived with enemies, fully aware that they would kill him if he so much as flinched.

Then he fights against his girlfriend's war band and is racked with guilt and grief over the death of another person who he loved. Bodily harm does not a great character make. The wounds inside hurt just as much and characters such as Jon are non-existent in ASoIaF which is why the series suffers.

Another thing that puzzles me is this Tyrion worship. He has the most charmed life of any character I've read in any book. He was good for a few laughs in ACOK, but as a character he pales against the lowliest of the low characters in ASoIaF.

Oh, I think Tyrion is overrated too. As far as Jon goes, this is probably one of those issues where people are just going to have their "take" on on his tribulations and won't change their mind. I agree that by real-world standards he has gone through more than enough suffering to make him into a hero (assuming that suffering is a prerequisite for heroism). But for better or for worse this series is heavily invested in symbolic moments of pain and catharsis out of which the character is reborn stronger, and Jon hasn't really had one of those yet. Dany lost everything and walked into the fire and came out with 3 dragons; Jaime lost his hand and quickly evolved into a decent person; Arya killed Dareon and in one fell swoop was transformed from everyone's favorite little tomboy into a scary child killer. Jon's suffered a lot, but he hasn't had a turning point, so to speak. None of his actions--not even killing Qhorin Halfhand--really changed who he is.

Now, I totally get where you're coming from when you say you'd prefer it if the series were more willing to depict emotional scars resulting from psychological trauma rather than physical trauma. All I'm saying is that given the conventions the story has set up, it's likely that Jon will experience a turning point, and having him die and get resurrected is one way to do that (even if it's a little cheesy).

[Sun]

[snip]

Another thing that puzzles me is this Tyrion worship. He has the most charmed life of any character I've read in any book. He was good for a few laughs in ACOK, but as a character he pales against the lowliest of the low characters in ASoIaF. Even Podrick Payne.

I agree with your post except for the Tyrion observation. I thought Tyrion's character until & including ASOS was extremely rich and well delineated. In terms of psychological trauma he is almost Jon's twin. both were marred from birth, one for being bastard born, the other for being born a dwarf.

Tyrion's psychological makeup, his wit, his obsession with whores were all results of his scarred psyche. Just like Jon's obsession with honor to the point of exiling himself to the wall and following his father's example are the poultice to his emotional scars. I found both Jon and Tyrion's characters utterly believable and emotionally convincing.

Unfortunately Tyrion character was ruined by his ADWD arc, for me at least. But I'm still holding out hope that Jon's resurrection in TWOW will not obliterate what I consider a well drawn character so far. Let's hope is only wounded and not completely dead, ay?

[steir]

Loras was absolutly deadly wounded. and..... is still alive.

with much more wildlings surrounding him than nw, not likely that more daggers can hit him.

is no one except of me annoyed by this caesar parallel?

to the dragon point....

first argument: for being AA it`s necessary to wake dragons from stone, or? i`m not convinced that the AA and tPwwP are the same, but anyway.

as someone pointed out smartly winterfell is built on hot springs. it seems a perfect place for a dragon, as i suppose there`s no time left for bringing them up like dany. but i agree could be complete nonsense, too as this ice dragon thing.

second argument: well for bringing down an army of whights a dragon seems pretty necessary. a "dance with dragons" referring to a former targ brother and sister having war with each other and the hostility between targs and starks points out a bit, that dany is not likely to give him one. why not having an own one? who says there can`t be more? the wall is a pretty powerful magical place, he is able to warg, with bloodraven and his sigil (white dragon with red eyes) near... these aren`t bad pre conditions for getting an own dragon.

What is "tPwwP"?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

What is "tPwwP"?

The Prince Who Was Promised.

[twist of cake]

If Jon lives and becomes AA or whatever it would in my eyes mean that the whole thing about ASoIaF being unique was a lie.

[malarky1231]

Jon Snow was just one aspect of the prophecy. He's AA, but so is Dany and Tyrion. All 3 are aspects of the PTWP.

[Tonythetiger]

Some interesting passages that shed light on the Jons fate..

“A grey girl on a dying horse. Daggers in the dark. A promised prince, born in smoke and salt. It

seems to me that you make nothing but mis-takes, my lady. Where is Stannis? What of Rattleshirt and

his spearwives? Where is my sister?”

Born in smoke and salt.

“Benerro has sent forth the word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfillment of

an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai

returned … and her triumph over darkness will bring a summer that will never end … death itself will

bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn …”

Benerros say FROM smoke and salt. He also says AA will beat death. In order to be reborn one has to die first.

I think that prophecy will apply to both Dany and to Jon. They both will be AA and PtwP and together they will defeat the Others.

In the granaries were oats and wheat and barley, and barrels of coarse ground flour. In the root

cellars strings of onions and garlic dangled from the rafters, and bags of carrots, parsnips, radishes, and

white and yellow turnips filled the shelves. One storeroom held wheels of cheese so large it took two

men to move them. In the next, casks of salt beef, salt pork, salt mutton, and salt cod were stacked ten

feet high. Three hundred hams and three thousand long black sausages hung from ceiling beams below

the smokehouse. In the spice locker they found peppercorns, cloves, and cinnamon, mustard seeds,

coriander, sage and clary sage and parsley, blocks of salt. Elsewhere were casks of apples and pears,

dried peas, dried figs, bags of walnuts, bags of chestnuts, bags of almonds, planks of dry smoked salmon,

clay jars packed with olives in oil and sealed with wax. One storeroom offered potted hare, haunch of

deer in honey, pickled cabbage, pickled beets, pickled onions, pickled eggs, and pickled herring.

As they moved from one vault to another, the wormways seemed to grow colder. Before long

Jon could see their breath frosting in the lantern light. “We’re beneath the Wall.”

Some have mentioned that the salt part of the prophecy is as a result of Bowen marshes tears. I think its because of the blocks of salt that are stored in the vaults.

And for those who say that the smoke coming from Jons wounds is only because of the cold. I find GRRM's use of 'frosting' instead of smoking is telling. Where there is smoke there is fire, not cold.

[Tonythetiger]

The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was

inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced

patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover’s hand.

Here Mels blood smokes not due to cold but heat. Fire inside her.

[Eustace Black]

I could tell Jon was going to die, he was stepping on everyone's toes. I was just relieved to see that he died Julius Caesar style and not by some machination of Selyse.

[axels15]

GRRM isn't stupid. You can kill Ned as a shock -- and it certainly was. If there is any doubt of that, think back to the reaction of those who watched "Baelor" for the first time, not knowing what would happen. With the Red Wedding, it was definitely another throw the book across the room moment. I was entirely pissed when I read Jon's last chapter and I DID shout "NOOOOOO....BASTARD!!" as I was reading it. I was in a rage but would not come to this message board until I was done the last chapters first (and then I flew through them to come read here).

I felt the exact same way and did the exact same thing you did. I'm so glad I'm not the only one who thought of resurrection via Melisandre. I don't think death is being overused, either. Before I even began reading the book, I had been thinking that a death of a major pov was imminent, and deep down I knew it would be Jon. He was honestly the only one that made any sense. I'm just hoping that we're all correct, and that he does return... Those northern boys gotta have a win sometimes, don't they?

Don't they?

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

Oh, I think Tyrion is overrated too. As far as Jon goes, this is probably one of those issues where people are just going to have their "take" on on his tribulations and won't change their mind. I agree that by real-world standards he has gone through more than enough suffering to make him into a hero (assuming that suffering is a prerequisite for heroism). But for better or for worse this series is heavily invested in symbolic moments of pain and catharsis out of which the character is reborn stronger, and Jon hasn't really had one of those yet. Dany lost everything and walked into the fire and came out with 3 dragons; Jaime lost his hand and quickly evolved into a decent person; Arya killed Dareon and in one fell swoop was transformed from everyone's favorite little tomboy into a scary child killer. Jon's suffered a lot, but he hasn't had a turning point, so to speak. None of his actions--not even killing Qhorin Halfhand--really changed who he is.

Now, I totally get where you're coming from when you say you'd prefer it if the series were more willing to depict emotional scars resulting from psychological trauma rather than physical trauma. All I'm saying is that given the conventions the story has set up, it's likely that Jon will experience a turning point, and having him die and get resurrected is one way to do that (even if it's a little cheesy).

I also understand where you are coming from. But my point was that does losing a hand (in Jaime's case) really make him a better person? Has he seen his family extinguished in front of him by his enemies? Did he watch his father and son (who he doesn't care for anyway) die in front of him and be helpless to do anything about it? All he grieves for is his prowess as a swordsman and Cersei's fidelity. And Cersei's fidelity is what he seems most infatuated with even during ADWD. Does he sympathize with those he has killed and maimed without reason? The only thing ASOS, AFFC and ADWD show is how hollow he is, which is fine, I can't imagine all characters of a story to be heroes, but losing a hand has just made him grieve for himself even more. Unless he realizes what it is to grieve for someone ELSE, he will not become 'decent'. Maybe he is faced with Brienne's death in TWOW and then realizes what it feels like to be in Stoneheart's shoes.

I agree with your post except for the Tyrion observation. I thought Tyrion's character until & including ASOS was extremely rich and well delineated. In terms of psychological trauma he is almost Jon's twin. both were marred from birth, one for being bastard born, the other for being born a dwarf.

Tyrion's psychological makeup, his wit, his obsession with whores were all results of his scarred psyche. Just like Jon's obsession with honor to the point of exiling himself to the wall and following his father's example are the poultice to his emotional scars. I found both Jon and Tyrion's characters utterly believable and emotionally convincing.

Unfortunately Tyrion character was ruined by his ADWD arc, for me at least. But I'm still holding out hope that Jon's resurrection in TWOW will not obliterate what I consider a well drawn character so far. Let's hope is only wounded and not completely dead, ay?

Well, maybe I did get carried away when demeaning Tyrion. Sure, he does have a deeper characterization than Cersei, but like Jaime, he is stuck in this wheel of feeling sorry for himself. His sense of entitlement and bloated self-worth may act as a shield against how the world views him, but the only thing he has lost is Tysha and that was years before ASoIaF. No unless these characters move out of the self-pity mode and actually DO something positive for once, will they turn to being 'decent'.

BTW, I agree about Jon, hopefully he recovers from his wounds, but they seem pretty serious. :(

A poster commented in another thread that he would prefer to see Jon fight the Others as Jon Snow son of Eddard Stark and not some invincible Azor Azhai or Princeling. I agree with this.

[Black Crow]

Double post

[Black Crow]

Spoilers can often be good. Knowing Jon was going to get stabbed in the back early on not only lessened the shock but had me thinking about it and looking out for signs and portents as the fatal moment approached.

First the context; I can understand why Marsh and the others stabbed him and wept as they did so. They had dedicated their lives to defending the wall, forgetting that the Wildlings were just the poor bastards who got left outside when it was built and that the real enemy was the White Walkers. Now here is Jon tearing the Watch, the reason for their very existence, apart. He has to be stopped to save it, especially as things are apparently dissolving into anarchy. Exactly where the deal with the giant dismembering the knight comes into it remains to be seen, but its hardly calculated to calm things.

The actual assasination is convincing enough. They are killing a brother, no matter that they think they're justified its still hard.

"In the cold night air the wound was smoking": without the cold night air that might be significant, but in that context I doubt if its significant at all. (just as a by the by when Jon offers to show the Braavosi banker the top of the wall he describes is as like "nothing on earth" - significant or just a slightly careless turn of phrase like smoking instead of steaming)

As to what happens next I honestly don't know. GRRM pretty well tells us that Jon isn't dead, and I don't see him as either a Wight, an unJon or for that matter AA. As for the first two, there are already too many of them wandering about in these pages and none of them are really up to snuff as human beings far less heroes. As to AA; that may be what our resident fire demon (Mel) wants, but I don't see Jon as a pawn in the war between the Whilte Walkers and the Fire Demons. Come the end I can see him destroying both.

[cravenravenkeeper]

[All posted without reading much of the thread so, apologies]

I was unfuckingbelieveably pissed about this scene. I can't even express it. But I'd wager large sums of money Jon is not perma-dead. I'll even go so far as to doubt he's undead. I figure one of two options are out there:

1) Through either wildling healing/magic, Mel healing magic or some combination of the two Jon lives, and is still Jon Snow a living breathing Human. I believe he got hit once in the back, once in the stomach and a slice in the neck. The Neck wound definetly didn't sound fatal, and the stomach and back wound could be non fatal as well. With proper healing he could suffer minimal long term physical symptoms as long as the wounds are in the right place.

2) He dies, and goes into Ghost and is (hopefully) drawn out and made human again (though I don't know how).

I hope for #1, and if so that frees him and the wildlings to go south to Winterfell and fix the Bolton infestation.

And no, I don't think Jon's watch is over. I suspect this will be a temporary detour in which Jon will settle some family business before returning (willingly or not) to the Nights Watch.

A few other things I've observed:

1) I agree that I get why the people tried to kill him. I suspect this is an (unintentional) example of mission creep. The wall was built to defend the realms of men. I imagine for much of the early history, men on both sides of the wall freely crossed, with the nights watches knowledge and approval. It seems to be a post-andal thing that the north vs wildlings thing happened. Basically the others faded out of memory and the Nights Watch needed to continue to justify it's existence, so they started keeping out the wildlings.

[yes)

[Auska]

And he did this at an age probably younger than when Aemon was faced with news of Aerys' demise. That shows immense fortitude in itself.

Probably? Aemon was 102 when he died!

[Sun]

A poster commented in another thread that he would prefer to see Jon fight the Others as Jon Snow son of Eddard Stark and not some invincible Azor Azhai or Princeling. I agree with this.

Yes. I do as well.