[ADwD Spoilers] Azor Ahai and Jon

[salinea]

- It might apply to other people as well, intentionally or not. Maybe we need 3 AAs for this fight, dragon has 3 heads and all that.

I've started to think this way as well.

[pow]

There is so much information for me to wrap my head around sorry if this first drift is a bit unclear.

I’m going to assume that the title has a strong relationship with greater story of these 7 books. The song of fire and ice; what could this mean?

My belief is this...

There are two stories taking place one involves the wall and the other Westeroi politics. The larger of the story arcs is the wall. I believe this for many reasons one among them is

a conversation between Melisandre and Maester Aemon:

“Make no mistake, good sers and valiant brothers, the war we’ve come to fight is no petty squabble over lands and honors. Outs is a war for life itself, and should we fail the world dies with us.”

...All of them seemed surprised to hear Maester Aemon murmur, “It is the war for the dawn you speak of, my lady. But where is the prince that was promised?”

“He stands before you,” Melisandre declared, “though you do not have the eyes to see it. Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai come again, the warrior of fire.”

--SoS, pg. 884

Melisandre here is pointing out that the wall is where the main story is taking place while men squabble over lands and honors. You will also notice that GRRM explaining what drove him to write this series in an NPR conversation. Here

Where is the ptwp? The implications of this statement are that the ptwp would lead the fight for dawn. But who is this ptwp and does he have Lightbringer?

In the first book ned often spoke of a promise that he was asked to keep for his sister.

Jon Snow has a dream in book five where he has black ice armor and the red sword while he fights the dead. If someone could get this quote and page number I would love you…

Why would Jon Snow be ptwp?

To understand this you should read Here

He is honorable. I will summarize for the lazy ones like me. The only time Ned would lie is for his family because this wouldn’t work for I promised to bury in Winterfell since this has already been kept. So when and why did his sister ask him to keep a promise? Well the events that took place before the war are important the lancing tourney which spoke of more than 3 different times. Rhaegar wins and claims that Lyanna is just one fine girl, and yes he’s already married. It’s said that Rhaegar kidnaps Lyanna Stark. Although more likely they there were in love. The reason behind this is the ice flower crown Rhaegar gives Lyanna Stark. Her grave has an ice flower crown. Then again it doesn’t really matter if she was raped or not somehow she ends up in tower of joy. Ned rushes down there after Rhaegar and the king was killed. There Ned is asked to keep a promise. The idea is that Ned actually isn’t Jons father but his Uncle. This would make Jon ptwp. Some make argument that Jon would have silvery hair and purple eyes. Wouldn’t that make it too obvious? Besides, that’s a question of generics in world of magic; ie it’s a black box. Interestedly enough Jon looks like Arya Stark who is often compared to Lyanna Stark. So yes R+L= Jon make sense and this is a void that otherwise needs to be filled which other guesses ignore.

Who is Azor Ahai?

Many believe that Dany is Azor Ahai I would agree. Im getting tired so ill jump to the point its possible that Azhor Ahai is actually two people hes reborn in smoke and salt. I believe that his soul is reborn in both fire and ice. Dany is obviously fire reborn in smoke, Jon is ice reborn in salt. Besides who else has been in books since the start and is a POV character that is a possible candidate besides Jon and Dany.

This also fills the child of three requirement Dany, Aegon, and Jon. That is living Targaryen children.

[Skadhi]

We all know even though they don't read prophecies right most of the time most prophecies have truth in them, especially one from a red priest. Mel has never failed us in the visions department so if she asks for AA and sees Jon. Then most likely Jon is AA. Or one of the heads from the trinity. (If that theory is correct)

I'm thinking about Dany's prophecy of salt and smoke and I think there's another way to look at that. Instead of the Trinity in the religious sense, you could have Body, Soul (or heart), and Mind. That's alchemical, represented by salt, sulfur, and mercury.

Now, this is a long shot, but there's a substance called cinnabar (mercury sulfide), AKA dragon's blood. When heated, it gives off a thick reddish smoke.

And of course I could be nuts and Martin really meant seawater.

[Wouter]

Also anyone notice how Jon couldn't draw Longclaw? At that point in time he only had a minor wound in his neck, yet his fingers grew weak and clumsy. By all accounts he should have had no problem drawing his sword since he had been in high pressure combat situations many times before, so why did was he unable to get his sword out at a critical moment?

It's because Longclaw is not his true sword (it never really was anyway, it's the Mormonts sword)

Lightbringer is.

Except, where IS Lightbringer?

I did suggest a theory on this in another thread.

What I think may be possible, is that Longclaw is Lightbringer, the ancient sword that somehow survived all those years and ended up as the Mormont sword. This assumes that Lighbringer was made from Valyrian steel (as a base, at least) or from something indistinguishable from Valyrian steel though maybe made in another way; I don't know if the AA legend supports that (but the legend may be distorted anyway).

One of the prophecies (quoted by Melisandre IIRC) states something like this: "a man will draw a blade from a fire and he will be AA reborn, and the sword will be Lightbringer" (going by memory here).

Well, Jon could be said to have pulled Longclaw from a fire. He burned the Commander's tower to kill the Wights attacking Mormont, the bear hilt of the sword burned in the process so it actually was in the fire as well, and Mormont presented the blade to him in gratitude - with a new hilt but the same name.

For the rest, Longclaw seems a perfectly "ordinary" Valyrian steel blade until Queenscrown, when the Thenn leader commands him to kill the old men who has seen the wildling party about to attack Castle Black. At that point, Jon notes that Longclaw weighs like a ton and he just can't lift it. Until Summer intervenes and Jon decides to attack the wildlings instead, and escape; now Longclaw is suddenly "as light as a feather".

Now, at the time I read this as a translation of Jon's conscience (he doesn't want to kill the old man) with a bit of poetic flair, but maybe it is intented to be more literal than one would think?

If Longclaw has some extra magical properties beyond normal Valyrian steel, it could have a will of its own - cliché I know, but Jons final scene in combination with Queenscrown is somewhat suggestive. Why couldn't he draw the sword, was it for the same reason he couldn't raise it to kill an innocent man? Was Jon supposed to be defenceless to the daggers? Did the sword refuse to be drawn?

[rhaze]

That would make Mormont AA then since he pulled it from the fire.

[Brutal_Roadrunner]

No, the quote is "I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow."

Notice "Snow" is capitalized, meaning a person, not snow, She sees Jon Snow.

THIS.

Jon is reborn, released from his vows, and ready for some payback.

[Wouter]

That would make Mormont AA then since he pulled it from the fire.

More likely a random builder/steward who did the actual pulling. Jon can easily be said to have "pulled it from a fire" in a less literal sense, though. He set the fire and he got the sword out of it, so...

It's just a suggestion, because I was struck by that scene at Queenscrown in combination with Jon's final chapter in ADWD.

[The Faceless Bard]

Hmm when talking about the prophecy and waking the stone dragons.... how does the night watch oath play into that ...

"the horn that wakes the sleepers,"

[Steve Moss]

THIS.

Jon is reborn, released from his vows, and ready for some payback.

Which is why I hope Jon is not AA, though I think he is. AA is in the business of saving the world, not payback.

[Été]

Which is why I hope Jon is not AA, though I think he is. AA is in the business of saving the world, not payback.

His first act as AAR must be to march up to Bowen Marsh and say, "DUDE, that was totally not cool."

[Itkovian]

I don't see why it matters that Jon is released from his vow. Why can't he simply be reborn and keep to his vow?

Seems to me if his destiny is to hold back/defeat the Others, being Lord Commander of the Night's Watch is precisely where he needs to be. :) And really, "My vow was until death, and I died and came back, so now I'm free" is basically exploiting a loophole, and I doubt Jon would do that. Mind you, that does depend on what happens to him afterwards, for example if it takes a while before he comes back then there might be be a new Lord Commander by then.

But either way, I'm not getting why so many are seeing Jon being released from his vow as a positive thing. It's not necessary for him to fight the Others.

And I agree that Lightbringer might be Longclaw. It is dragonglass, which legend says can mess up others, and was forged in magical dragonfire.

Also, just because the Azor Ahai myth says he had a flaming sword, does not mean "Lightbringer" must spout flames or light. A magical sword that melts others, which Dragonglass can apparently do, could fit the bill just as well. The flaming sword bit can easily be embellishment added throughout the ages.

Thank you.

Itkovian

[Brutal_Roadrunner]

I don't see why it matters that Jon is released from his vow. Why can't he simply be reborn and keep to his vow?

It matters because of his heritage, and his claim.

Seems to me if his destiny is to hold back/defeat the Others, being Lord Commander of the Night's Watch is precisely where he needs to be. :) And really, "My vow was until death, and I died and came back, so now I'm free" is basically exploiting a loophole, and I doubt Jon would do that. Mind you, that does depend on what happens to him afterwards, for example if it takes a while before he comes back then there might be be a new Lord Commander by then.

What do you think would have to happen for Jon to retain Command of the Wall? He was assassinated by a large conspiracy of Black Brothers, this is not something you can overlook. They do not love him now and will love him less after the mass executions take place.

[Itkovian]

It matters because of his heritage, and his claim.

What do you think would have to happen for Jon to retain Command of the Wall? He was assassinated by a large conspiracy of Black Brothers, this is not something you can overlook. They do not love him now and will love him less after the mass executions take place.

There have been assassination attempts against rulers before, who have retained their rule. Having a conspiracy against a ruler does not invalidate their rule in any way shape or form. It has absolutely no relevance on whether or not he stays as Lord Commander, should he survive (or come back quickly).

If Jon does survive/come back, then we can expect those few who attacked him to be publicly executed (assuming they even survive the next few moments). It's usually what happens to failed conspiracies.

And, also, we have no data whatsoever as to how widespread this conspiracy is. Clearly the conservative elements in the NW are displeased, but we have no idea just how many of those were actually part of the conspiracy. For all we know it was just those who took action.

Jon might decide to abdicate, but given what we've seen of him in the book so far, I doubt very much he would. He's doing what needs to be done, and popularity is not a factor that concerns him. I maintain that the only way he will not remain as Lord Commander is if a new one is named before he returns (which would mean he actually dies or is otherwise declared dead), or if the Night's Watch tears itself apart (which it very well might, Jon most certainly had his supporters in the NW as well, not to mention Tormund & Friends).

As for his heritage and claim, why is that important? His role, if he is indeed AA or the PWWP, is to defeat the Others. Does it matter if he has a claim to the Iron Throne? Of course, as far as we know he does NOT have a claim anyway, being a bastard (even if R+L=J).

While it is possible he might end up on the Throne, that seems too "conventional fantasy" in my opinion. What's more, I don't see why Jon would want the Throne anyway, or why it would be necessary for his story. He's at the wall, fighting the Others.

Granted, it is possible (even probable) that he is one of the three heads of the dragon, which implies he might marry Dany and get to ride a dragon and so forth. That marriage part would require his vows to be broken, but it is hardly necessary for him to marry to fulfill his role.

It seems to me there are simply too many unknowns and different interpretations for it being necessary for Jon to break/annul his vows. He can fulfill his purpose quite well as Lord Commander, or as a Brother of the Night's Watch. That's not to say it will never happen, it MIGHT, but I do not see his "death" as a golden opportunity to slip free of his vows (or why Jon would even decide to do so).

Thank you.

Itkovian

[Ipse Dixit 000]

Also, just because the Azor Ahai myth says he had a flaming sword, does not mean "Lightbringer" must spout flames or light. A magical sword that melts others, which Dragonglass can apparently do, could fit the bill just as well. The flaming sword bit can easily be embellishment added throughout the ages.

I kind of picture Lightbringer as an obsidian sword on fire like the glass candles. Deals with others and wights both, and plays into Jon's potential Targ heritage of valyrian fire magic.

I don't see it being an otherwise run of the mill sword, valyrian steel or not, somehow the property of the otherwise utterly un-noteworthy house mormont.

Just my slightly off topic two cents.

[modehead]

ETA: re Jon fulfilling the prophecy...

When the red star bleeds - Ser Patrek with his star sigil and R'hllor-bothering

and darkness gathers, - it's nighttime. Could mean treachery or winter coming either

Azor Ahai shall be born - Mel's totally going to give Jon the kiss of life

amidst smoke and salt - Bowen's tears and Jon's wound

to wake dragons out of stone. - I wonder if that's just the loan coming in from Braavos? :laugh: Dany's got enough dragons to go around...

Dangit. I was totally convinced that Jon dying was absolutely boring and stupid... but you've convinced me that it does fit the bill.

[cteresa]

I've started to think this way as well.

Ohhh, hi! (I am breaking the boards, Stranger, I am breaking the boards, tried to post that already twice before).

I am thinking that a lot of these prophecies and promised figures can apply on several levels to different things. Not necessarily as the author purposefully misguiding (though he would, he would!), but more that it ties to something else. Examples, that maybe GRRM now has three AA figures. And that while I can not go from one sword being the same as 3 dragons, I can reach from one dragon each being an equivalent of Lightbringer. (And paralelly, Dany´s fire for death being the fire at the Undying and Drogon´s fire at Meereen at the same time!)

[cteresa]

I've started to think this way as well.

Ohhh, hi! (I am breaking the boards, Stranger, I am breaking the boards, tried to post that already twice before).

I am thinking that a lot of these prophecies and promised figures can apply on several levels to different things. Not necessarily as the author purposefully misguiding (though he would, he would!), but more that it ties to something else. Examples, that maybe GRRM now has three AA figures. And that while I can not go from one sword being the same as 3 dragons, I can reach from one dragon each being an equivalent of Lightbringer. (And paralelly, Dany´s fire for death being the fire at the Undying and Drogon´s fire at Meereen at the same time!)

[Early Earl]

Lightbringer: is not a certain sword, but any sword that will taken from fire and hardened by the blood of a loved one, I think. (where's the description again, couldn't find it?)

So, could be Longclaw, could be any sword, though I think valyrian steel would be better, withstanding dragonfire (where's that description!?).

My question: who would be the loved one he (or whoever) has to kill to make a sword lightbringer?

[Itkovian]

I kind of picture Lightbringer as an obsidian sword on fire like the glass candles. Deals with others and wights both, and plays into Jon's potential Targ heritage of valyrian fire magic.

I don't see it being an otherwise run of the mill sword, valyrian steel or not, somehow the property of the otherwise utterly un-noteworthy house mormont.

Just my slightly off topic two cents.

But it could be what is special about Lightbringer is not the sword itself, but who wields it. Maybe a big deal is made of the sword not because it's Super Special Magic, but simply because it is the sword wielded by AA. Longclaw is already a magic sword, after all, and from what legends say Valyrian Steel does not need any flashy pyrotechnics to cut down Others.

After all, AA was a hero, a savior, and so by default whatever sword he wielded must have been special. It could have been made of pig iron for all we know, but as far as legend was concerned it must have been a Flaming Sword of Awesome with a whole backstory and ritual to its forging. Anything less would be inappropriate. :)

My thinking is that the whole "hero with special magic sword" deal is not only a classic fantasy trope, but it is also a classic element of most hero myths in medieval settings. As such, it is entirely possible that GRRM will just have Longclaw be "Lightbringer", because the whole bit about flames and such was added to the AA legend after the fact (which is EVEN MORE likely given it is attached to a religion obsessed with flames).

So sure, maybe it'll spout flames (I mean, we KNOW it's possible, Beric did it after all), but it's not necessary for the fulfillment of prophecy or Jon's role as AA/PWWP (assuming we are correct, of course). He'll be just as heroic and impressive with an Other-melting Dragonsteel sword, I say. :)

That said, assuming he is who we think he is and Melisandre nearby, she will probably scramble frantically to make Longclaw spout flames (illusory or not) the moment she realizes Jon is AA. :)

Thank you.

Itkovian

[Total Depravity]

Yes, but interpreting dragons as Lightbringer the red sword of heroes does not require any metaphorical stretches.

It requires the very definition of metaphorical stretches.