[ADwD Spoilers] Azor Ahai and Jon

[Cyberhest]

A lot of good points and interesting viewpoints have been done in this thread. For my own part, however, I think the fate of Jon Snow is either

1. He is not Azor Ahai reborn, but the circumstances surrounding his death leads Melisandre to believe that he is. Perhaps giving him a kiss of fire to wake him up, thinking he is the One foretold by prophecy, while it's actually Daenerys, just like maester Aemon says in book four, or

2. He is Azor Ahai reborn, but Melisandres failure to interpret her fiery visions stops her from preventing his death, buggering up the prophecy good and proper.

On a completely unrelated note: guys, what the hell is the deal with all the abbrevations? "If R+L=J did MMD stop the AAR/PTWP prophecy..."

I don't mean to whine, but seriously, it's not that hard to spell things out properly.

[JJxvi]

Speaking of martial ability, thats the biggest problem I see with the counter argument to this thread that Dany is Azor Ahai. Azor Ahai is said to be a warrior who drives back the darkness. Maybe metaphorical, in the same way that the prophecy about a sword is twisted to be metaphorical and referring to the dragons, but we do know of the possibility that Rhaegar, in response to studying the prophecies while believing them to refer to himself, comes to believe that he must make himself into a great warrior.

[Masha]

Still have not seen definitively that Rhaegar had three children. I have seen proof of two, Aegon being his first son. Precisely my point, Lyanna has the child with her, that is the heir. It is the blue flower she drops when she dies. It is Aegon, aka Jon. Heh, I don't think Elia had more than one child. Did I make it that unclear? It does if Lyanna's son is Aegon. Jon (Aegon) was born before the Battle of the Trident, at least 8-9 months before the end of the war of the Usurper. The Tower of Joy episode was after the war was over, or nearly when it is over, as Daenerys is being born on Dragonstone. We still do not know if the events surrounding Jon Snow being reborn will match the prophecies or not. Key to your argument of Daenerys is that she tried three times to hatch the eggs, but she really tried daily, after receiving the. She had placed candles in with the eggs in an attempt ti incubate them from the very beginning.

I just think that when we get the reveal it will be very apparent. Right now many things are clear as mud. I have never seen any reference to Elia having a second child, a son. Nothing about the woman or child is revealed in Daenerys' vision. :(

Absolutely sure there are several major and reliable characters in the book themselves saying that Elia had two children as a given and proven fact and 2nd being his son - Aegon (which is pronounced "egg-on" not as "e-jon" - hence the nickname -Egg). I believe Doran & Oberyn Martell refer to Elia's children (not a child as singular) describing her death and death of her son and daughter, Ned Stark refers to that, Jon Connington refers to that, Barristan refers to that (and he was probably witness to that too) and other major characters refer to that.

Furthermore, Elia being official wife of crown prince, her giving birth would have been witnessed and certified as was tradition in medieval times for birth of heirs of major houses/kindgoms. Furthermore, I think GRRM himself mentioned that when Dany sees vision of Rhaegar in House of Undying it is Elia and Aegon with Rhaegar not Lyanna.

Finally, GRRM said that Aegon got his coloring (gold/silver heir and purple eyes) from Rhaegar while Rhaenys got her coloring from her mother (dark heir/eyes), nowhere in the series Jon spends any time or thinks about coloring his hair (unlike Sansa, Young Griff) that are naturally dark brown, so he doesn't look that Rhaegar. (not a problem with theory of him being Rhaegar's 3rd child and L+R) but definately not 2nd child - Aegon with blond heir and purple eyes!

[em388480]

Can anyone explain to me why Wun Wun kills Ser Patreck, why the soldiers line up outside and watch Jon assassinated? Something about all of this doesn't add up.

I'm not sure what just yet - but something about this scene strikes me as odd.

[Lord Godric]

Can anyone explain to me why Wun Wun kills Ser Patreck, why the soldiers line up outside and watch Jon assassinated? Something about all of this doesn't add up.

I'm not sure what just yet - but something about this scene strikes me as odd.

Well I had assumed that Wun Wun killed Ser Patreck as he tried to steal Val. Wasn't it mentioned just before how Wun Wun had grown fond of Val and the little monster? As for the soldiers, I assumed they had just come at the sound of the commotion, why they didn't act I am not sure. I don't think they were in on the plot to kill Jon, but they certainly didn't make any moves to stop it. All I could think of during this scene (and it probably was intentional) was the assassination of Julius Caesar. The men of the Night's Watch thought that Jon had grown crazy and was destroying the Realm and the Night's Watch, which is why they all said "For the Watch" as they stabbed him. It is possible that Marsh informed Selyse of the assassination and told her men not to interfere as she and the Watch had a similar interest in not going to Hardhome and not having the Wildlings on this side of the Wall.

[em388480]

Well I had assumed that Wun Wun killed Ser Patreck as he tried to steal Val. Wasn't it mentioned just before how Wun Wun had grown fond of Val and the little monster? As for the soldiers, I assumed they had just come at the sound of the commotion, why they didn't act I am not sure. I don't think they were in on the plot to kill Jon, but they certainly didn't make any moves to stop it. All I could think of during this scene (and it probably was intentional) was the assassination of Julius Caesar. The men of the Night's Watch thought that Jon had grown crazy and was destroying the Realm and the Night's Watch, which is why they all said "For the Watch" as they stabbed him. It is possible that Marsh informed Selyse of the assassination and told her men not to interfere as she and the Watch had a similar interest in not going to Hardhome and not having the Wildlings on this side of the Wall.

The whole thing seemed very comic-booky. Jon's entire story arc is him distancing everyone he knows, without explaining himself. In his situation, he should have formed alliances and laid down the law as, "I know no one is going to like this, but check the big picture out. This is how shit hasto be." Instead he does stuff no one likes and basically has everyone hate him, and even when Melisandre is right - it isn't the outcome he wants so he calls her a fake.

[Laeif]

Wouldn't it be something if Lady Stoneheart had to give Jon the kiss of life, like Beric did to her? Especially since Catelyn hated Jon so much.

[Ninotchka]

Wouldn't it be something if Lady Stoneheart had to give Jon the kiss of life, like Beric did to her? Especially since Catelyn hated Jon so much.

:lmao: Gods, seeing how well the two of them went all their life in common, and that Stoneheart is in the riverlands and Jon in the Wall... I think that if he has to wait to Stoneheart to go kiss him good life, he better be waiting in a comfortable posture :lmao: (although if he is dead, maybe he wouldn't care about comfort anymore, of course :lmao: )

:bawl: Pup, what did they bad boys do to you?

[LAJN]

Can anyone explain to me why Wun Wun kills Ser Patreck, why the soldiers line up outside and watch Jon assassinated? Something about all of this doesn't add up.

I'm not sure what just yet - but something about this scene strikes me as odd.

The knight probably picked a fight with Wun Wun, tried to cut him down but got killed. That was my reading, anyway.

[Lord Godric]

Wouldn't it be something if Lady Stoneheart had to give Jon the kiss of life, like Beric did to her? Especially since Catelyn hated Jon so much.

I really don't think Jon is even dead. It's going to be one hell of a recovery for him with all those daggers, but I just do not believe he is actually dead.

[She Wolf of Winterfell]

I'm surprised that a lot of people don't think Jon=AAR, since the last book pretty much clubbed us over the head repeatedly with that idea.

It would be kind of cool, though, if Azor Ahai has no special powers whatsoever, and the prophecy is essentially meaningless. Maybe it was created only because someone in the past recognized that in order to have any chance against the others, a larger-than-life central figure would be needed around which everyone else would rally. Without that, the various lords would never set aside their petty squabbles or agree on any one person to lead them.

The only part of the prophecy that isn't easily recreated is the raising a dragon part, but it's not too unreasonable to expect that a person with a dragon might be a good candidate for holding back the others. Otherwise, it wouldn't be too tough to find an interpretation of the bloody star, the salt, and the smoke and apply it to just about anyone. It would also be somewhat interesting if other than the warg powers, Jon is more or less ordinary, but Mel ends up infusing him with power by healing his wounds (like Victarion), thus creating a truly empowered AAR, rather than a merely human one.

[Lady of Casterly Rock]

Wrong that was most likely Howland himself and rhaeger crowned her Queen of Love in another tourney

You can still discuss if Lyanna, Howland or Benjen was the kotlt. And people still do in the general forum.

But Lyanna was crowend the Queen of Love and Beauty the day after the kotlt joust. It was the same tourney at Harrenhal. Meera tells Bran that there war a sadder story about love at this tourney. And in adwd someone (Jon or Barristan) remembers that the mad king did not visit tourneys often. But he was at the one tourney at Harrenhal.

[beehives]

It would also be somewhat interesting if other than the warg powers, Jon is more or less ordinary, but Mel ends up infusing him with power by healing his wounds (like Victarion), thus creating a truly empowered AAR, rather than a merely human one.

If AAJon has the mojo of Victarion while still maintaining his innate sense of compassion, the world better watch out! Victarion turned into a badass, but only in his own mind. I hope that doesn't happen to Jon and he still has a sense of humanity left. But AAJon could benefit from a big power-boost. He could be like old Jon on fire god steroids. I want AAJon to deliver some sweet vengeance for God's sake. Ice, Fire, and Blood.

[Calico]

I'm surprised that a lot of people don't think Jon=AAR, since the last book pretty much clubbed us over the head repeatedly with that idea.

It would be kind of cool, though, if Azor Ahai has no special powers whatsoever, and the prophecy is essentially meaningless. Maybe it was created only because someone in the past recognized that in order to have any chance against the others, a larger-than-life central figure would be needed around which everyone else would rally. Without that, the various lords would never set aside their petty squabbles or agree on any one person to lead them.

The only part of the prophecy that isn't easily recreated is the raising a dragon part, but it's not too unreasonable to expect that a person with a dragon might be a good candidate for holding back the others. Otherwise, it wouldn't be too tough to find an interpretation of the bloody star, the salt, and the smoke and apply it to just about anyone. It would also be somewhat interesting if other than the warg powers, Jon is more or less ordinary, but Mel ends up infusing him with power by healing his wounds (like Victarion), thus creating a truly empowered AAR, rather than a merely human one.

I think some of it it is willful denial, because if it turns out to be true is IS kind of too trite and predictable. That and there really is a better candidate, so far.

[Ninotchka]

I think some of it it is willful denial, because if it turns out to be true is IS kind of too trite and predictable. That and there really is a better candidate, so far.

Well, almost everyone (me too) thought that AA was Daenerys until Melisandre saw Jon in her flames... If Dany has been Azor Ahai in our minds all this time, maybe in fact if Azor Ahai turns out to be Jon it wasn't predictable at all :worried:

[Ellroy]

The only part of the prophecy that isn't easily recreated is the raising a dragon part.

Well, you are taking it too literally. If Jon is indeed a Targaryen, raisin' a dragon could simply mean that he discovers his heritage (assuming R+L=J).

[She Wolf of Winterfell]

Well, you are taking it too literally. If Jon is indeed a Targaryen, raisin' a dragon could simply mean that he discovers his heritage (assuming R+L=J).

I agree that if the prophecy actually has meaning, raising a dragon could be discovering Jon's heritage or even something as mundane as borrowing a bunch of gold dragons from the Iron Bank.

It might be interesting, though, if the prophecy were basically a lot of made up stuff to help people unite behind a central figure against the others or even the ravings of a madman with no inherent worth whatsoever. Due to Mel's and other people's desire to fulfill the prophecy, they "create" an AAR. Maybe this is kind of wishful thinking, since GRRM doesn't usually go with fantasy cliches, and the "chosen one" revealed in prophecy thing is one of the biggest fantasy cliches out there.

[Sasha Steelsong]

I think some of it it is willful denial, because if it turns out to be true is IS kind of too trite and predictable. That and there really is a better candidate, so far.

I disagree. I think what you have is two almost equal candidates, since Dany fits the beginning of the prophecy but needs metaphorical help with the warrior and Lightbringer aspects of the prophecy where as Jon fits the warrior aspects and it is his birth (or rebirth) that is more metaphorical.

What I do know is that prophecies in Martin's world that have seemed grand and momentous came true in almost totally mundane ways

(Egg coming forward and showing himself to be a Dragon was considered to fulfill the prophecy of a dragon rising)

so that it is possible that either or both are part of the end result and that grand metaphor may very well turn out to be someone or something very simple and small when it plays out.

[GhostDaddy]

Maybe the waking dragons out of stone part of the prophecy is Jon finding out about his Targaryen heratage (more than likely through Bran seeing the events of the past , like his father praying at the godswood. Or alternativily through Mel's fires), thus waking the dragon? Kinda like the prophecy about Egg.Don't know if anyone has posted this idea or not but have yet to see it.

[Roza Ahai]

Speaking of martial ability, thats the biggest problem I see with the counter argument to this thread that Dany is Azor Ahai. Azor Ahai is said to be a warrior who drives back the darkness. Maybe metaphorical, in the same way that the prophecy about a sword is twisted to be metaphorical and referring to the dragons, but we do know of the possibility that Rhaegar, in response to studying the prophecies while believing them to refer to himself, comes to believe that he must make himself into a great warrior.

Absolutely agree with you. Even before ADWD I didn't see Daenerys as AA. She is not a warrior, never been and there is no enough time for her to become a warrior. AA is reborn when the darkness gathers. I think that the timeline shows this event should happen in the next book. The winter has come, the Others and darkeness gather.

Maybe the waking dragons out of stone part of the prophecy is Jon finding out about his Targaryen heratage...thus waking the dragon? Kinda like the prophecy about Egg.

I've just wanted to post this idea. You are not alone.