[ADwD Spoilers] Azor Ahai and Jon

[Kadence]

If you take it this literally, then Melisandre isn't asking R'hllor for a glimpse of "his king, his instrument" but of Stannis himself. Then, why R'hllor shows her Jon when she is asking for Stannis? "Show me Stannis", that, there you got, Snow. It makes no sense :dunno: unless Jon IS Stannis and we don't know it yet :smug:

The king and instrument comes after she asks for Stannis. There's a gap there. And she seems a lot of visions in answer. Perhaps Stannis is in them, who knows. Stannis is not relevant to the topic.

The point is, she did not ask for Azor Ahai yet she was certain in her own mind she asked for Azor Ahai. The two thoughts a page apart (I thought they were on the same page - my mistake, I'll edit my earlier post). They are on pages 407 and 408. So to assume Mel is asking for AA but getting Jon, is a big leap. The exact leap that Mel has - perhaps wrongly - been making.

[Ninotchka]

The point is, she did not ask for Azor Ahai yet she was certain in her own mind she asked for Azor Ahai. The two thoughts a page apart (I thought they were on the same page - my mistake, I'll edit my earlier post). They are on pages 407 and 408. So to assume Mel is asking for AA but getting Jon, is a big leap. The exact leap that Mel has - perhaps wrongly - been making.

Ok, no, I agree with that part :thumbsup: maybe we are making the same mistake than Melisandre, but my point is: the sentence is "Show me Stannis", she prayed. "Show me your king, your instrument". That "she prayed" is not a gap or a silence, is just an anotation (I don't know how you name it in English, in Spanish it's called "acotación", it means that there Martin is showing what Melisandre is doing, and it doesn't imply a silence of any sort :unsure: it's the same as "'Hi', she said. 'How are you?'", the verb tells us what he's doing (talk, or in this case, pray), not that she stops praying during the time we spent reading this 'she prayed'). What I'm trying to say is that this is a whole sentence, and doesn't have any gaps in it: Melisandre prays "Show me Stannis. Show me your king, your instrument." And she sees Jon. Weird :unsure:

[Kadence]

Well she sees a bunch of stuff actually, including Bran and Bloodraven. She sees some stuff about snowflakes too, perhaps those represent Stannis. Perhaps she sees both Stannis and R'hollor's king/intrument, she just doesn't realize it.

Fact is that Mel has little idea what she's asking for.

[Wind and Words]

No, he has not, he supposedly confirmed this but it turns out the person who reported said confirmation was lying, and has since recanted.

What is the source for this? I can't find this anywhere.

Edit:

Found it. For those who are wondering (sorry if this has been asked before)

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/52020-an-apology-for-a-lie-about-the-series/page__p__2538938__fromsearch__1#entry2538938

[Dr. Acula]

If AAR and the PWWP are two different things, what is the purpose/function of the PWWP? I don't think we've heard of the Promised Prince doing anything except what Azor Ahai is supposed to do. I believe the two terms mean the same person.

[wolfeyoung]

Question? The knight that Wun Wun was killing has a blue star on his chest, not red. Is this a suggestion that Jon is not AA, and everything else in the chapter is just misleading? I know people say the knight has red hair, but 1) Hair color is not mentioned in his intro when the queens men first see Wun Wun, and I have no clue were it is mentioned. 2) Doesn't matter to me if he does have red hair, the star is blue.

It's a blue star bleeding, not red.

[twincast]

Can anyone explain to me why Wun Wun kills Ser Patreck, why the soldiers line up outside and watch Jon assassinated? Something about all of this doesn't add up.

I'm not sure what just yet - but something about this scene strikes me as odd.

Jon told him (in the Jon chapter just before, I think) that to gain Val's approval in marriage he'd have to steal her and he seemed to very much like the idea of such a "game". Add to that his repeatedly stated desire to slay Wun Wun, it's safe to assume that he wasn't particularly sneaky or diplomatic in trying to get past him. Bloody fool.

As for the assassination, I think the particular timing was rather spontaneous after Jon's speech.

That would make him the red star that bleeds, surely? He did wake dragons, but it was from sleep rather than stone...

I think his being the sun that rises in the west and sets in the east is rather obvious, but I never considered this additional meaning. Definitely makes sense and nothing says the bleeding star has to be nearby, although on the other hand any Martell dying does seem a bit arbitrary. Still, why not?

[LanisterSwag]

what if what hapen to jon will give him new powers? we know that his brother and jojen got new power after escaping death. what will be the new power of jon? will he see the futer like jojen? will he see the 3 eyed crow like bran? willhe be capable of entring the mind of the dragons?

[Ivy Snow]

When the red star bleeds - Ser Patrek with his star sigil and R'hllor-bothering

and darkness gathers, - it's nighttime. Could mean treachery or winter coming either

Azor Ahai shall be born - Mel's totally going to give Jon the kiss of life

amidst smoke and salt - Bowen's tears and Jon's wound

to wake dragons out of stone. - I wonder if that's just the loan coming in from Braavos? Dany's got enough dragons to go around...

I agree with all of these and just another thought:

and darkness gathers, - could be because the black brothers were around him, they are wearing all black, darkness gathers... possible?

[Winter's Breath]

I think that there are three prophecies for three people. There is the Prince that was Promised, Azor Ahai, and the last hero. AA is clearly dany because of the prophecy: When the red star bleeds, and darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born amidst smoke to wake dragons out of stone. Dany fids all this criteria.

Then the Prince that was Promised is Aegon Targarean because he was Rhaegar’s heir, and was promised the throne. Also, when Dany is in the house of the undying she sees a vision of a king who names his heir Aegon, and says, “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.”

But the dragon has three heads. Jon Snow, the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar is also a Targaryan. I think he will be the last hero, but will remain dead in the next book, as Danny and Aegon fulfill their prophecies. They will keep the others at bay for a little while, but they won’t be enough and they may die. Then in the last book Jon will rise again as an other, forge a new magic hero’s sword by either killing, Bran, Ayra, or Ghost, and become the person in the last prophecy. Glowing like a sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue eyed king who cast no shadow. This will explain Jon’s dream where he was, “armored in black ice (a cold dead other), but his blade burned red in his fist.” It also explains why Melisandre keeps seeing Jon Snow in her fires, not Stannis. I predice when Jon becomes The Last Hero, he will be the one to seek the final truth about the others and end them once and for all. But since he is an other as well, it will mean his death.

[Raventhal]

I think Jon is certainly going to be dead and live on as Ghost for a while and be reborn or revived somehow. That is essentially what the prophecy says and I think the skin changers prologue foreshadows it with new information.

Price that was promised can only be Dany, Jon or Aegon. Dany is the only confirmed living Targaryen of Jaehaerys line. The dwarf said the Prince that was promised would come from his line which lead to him marrying his children. Unless there are bastards out there. There are implication that the Prince that was Promise is also called AA one and the same at least Mel thinks so.

Azor Ahai seems to be Dany or Jon or both.

[Free Northman]

In the So Spake Martin collection, George has categorically stated that the Prince who was Promised and Azor Ahai refer to the same person.

All these theories trying to split the two are a waste of time.

[cat of the cabals]

to wake dragons out of stone. - I wonder if that's just the loan coming in from Braavos? :laugh: Dany's got enough dragons to go around...----> Crazed theory. R+L=J. Jon is a Targ, and therefore a dragon. Mel's kiss "wakes" Jon, the dragon. The stone could be the condition of his heart (i.e. a stone cold war leader, without the compassion he normally demonstrates) or something else (Castle Black being made of "stone")?

Another VERY likely possibiity!

Remember that fisher-woman from the fingers or something, I remember it was some place in the vale, that was suggested to be Jon's mother?

As far as I understand, if it is true Jon's surename should be Stone?

If it is indeed so, "to wake dragons out of stone" will relate to Jon discovering his true identity!

But then again how would he be a dragon if Rhaegar is not involved...

R+FW=J anyone?

:):)

Maybe...

Edit: when I think about it, why is Jon even named Snow at all? he came with Ned from the south after the war no? And bastards arent named for their father's birth place, but for their own... See Mya Stone for example, if we would apply the same logic to it she should have Robert's region bastards name, aka Storm, no?

Are we allowed to assume then that Jon's mother was essentially found in the north in the moment of his birth, else he would not be named Snow?

[Lady of Casterly Rock]

In the So Spake Martin collection, George has categorically stated that the Prince who was Promised and Azor Ahai refer to the same person.

All these theories trying to split the two are a waste of time.

No, that´s not right. The person who reported this, wrote in the general forum a while ago, that George Martin did not say this.

[Aelinor]

Another VERY likely possibiity!

Remember that fisher-woman from the fingers or something, I remember it was some place in the vale, that was suggested to be Jon's mother?

As far as I understand, if it is true Jon's surename should be Stone?

If it is indeed so, "to wake dragons out of stone" will relate to Jon discovering his true identity!

But then again how would he be a dragon if Rhaegar is not involved...

R+FW=J anyone?

:):)

Maybe...

Edit: when I think about it, why is Jon even named Snow at all? he came with Ned from the south after the war no? And bastards arent named for their father's birth place, but for their own... See Mya Stone for example, if we would apply the same logic to it she should have Robert's region bastards name, aka Storm, no?

Are we allowed to assume then that Jon's mother was essentially found in the north in the moment of his birth, else he would not be named Snow?

I think it's just whoever decides to name them. Like LF gives Sansa the last name "Stone" even though he's claiming she was born in Braavos, where I don't think they even have the bastard last name tradition

Edit: Nm, she was supposedly born in Gulltown and given to the faith.

[Calavera777]

I was thinking about this... there is also a lot of salt on the top of the wall.... I was also wondering if Mel is going to bring Jon back to life... or if Catelyn is near and about to show up and give him life...

[The Anti-Targ]

So I know GRRM said Dany's fire bath was a one time thing, for Dany.

But we also know that dead bodies get burned at the wall so they don't come back as wights.

What if born again amidst smoke and salt is realised in Jon through his funeral pyre not turning him to ash but having him re-born.

They set the funeral pyre to burning, go to bed, wake up the next day to find Jon sleeping amid the ashes. Everyone freaks, including Mel.

If Jon is part-Targ then he has the right blood for something mystical to happen with fire. And it's got a symmetry with Dany's re-birth. To make it a bit tragic, Ghost could jump into the funeral pyre to bring Jon's soul back to his body Ghost would die in the process, naturally. Albeit the new Jon would have Ghost's spirit within him.

Sounds a bit cheap, but really I don't see Jon being reanimated in any way that isn't cheap. I do think Jon isn't out of the story. I much prefer Jon to be nearly dead, not dead when next we visit the Wall. I'd rather see him brought back from the brink of death than brought back from being dead. Either that or Jon's body stays dead, while Jon lives on in Ghost and goes South to join up with Nymeria. I think a Jon/Ghost PoV would be quite cool.

[dvcc]

can jon's death be somehow related to the red priest description of azor ahai profecie in the tyrion chapters? he says that even death wil bent the knee to AA...

[Magister Ifabo]

In response to the last Jon chapter, the smoking of his wound. I think that is a sure-fire indication of some sort of supernatural interference with the scene. In the prologue of aGoT, Ser Waymar Royce is wounded by the Others in the freezing cold that they bring with them. Martin uses steaming to describe the wound, where he uses smoking in Jon's chapter.

[Corvinus85]

What I am thinking is for the AA prophecy to be fulfilled with the signs that people have deduced, Jon's revival/rebirth needs to happen right then and there. Right now Jon DIED amid the smoke and the salt, he DIED under the bleeding star.

What if Jon gets revived days later when Patrek's body has been removed, all the blood has been cleaned, and nobody is crying? Sure other conditions can be met at that time.

My point is, until we get to see what happens after the assassination, I am skeptical about these so called signs.