[ADwD Spoilers] Azor Ahai and Jon

[Ygritte's fur]

I resist the notion that there will be a literal aha! the proephecy comes alive! moment with AA. It just seems too Jesus-y religious-y.

Maybe I'm wrong but it seems like we aren't (and arent meant to be) quite sure if this R'hollr is good or bad. So why would we assume AA is going to be the force that saves the world?

I think GRRM makes a strong point, especially in this last book, of saying prophecy isn't all it's cracked up to be. So I don't know that we will see a one-for-one correspondence between all of these prophecies to outcomes. I think it's fun, by design, to puzzle it all out.

But I wonder if the big meta joke of all this is that there is no AA. Or PWWP. Or that, at the very least, we will still at the end be wondering if the prophecies all came true.

If Jon is in fact AA (and if anyone is, it's him) and this does get taken in a literal direction, I hope to the red god he doesn't have to kill Ghost.

[Tormund the Hornblower]

You suffer from the same problem as Rhygaer impatience and belief in convictions.

Ok. Jon is dead.

I'm telling you he ain't staying that way.

Did dany real die. Figuratively dead and dead not the same thing.

He s the prince who was promised. That doesn't mean she is not the Dragon.

I think young griff (aegon) is the mummers dragon, Rhagear thought that he was the PTWP first but then he had said it had to be his son. Assuming that Jon=R+L son gives him another piece of evidence that he is TPTWP/AA. I also believe that the prophecies could be fufilled through more then one person Dany Jon & ? (Tyrion, possible being Aerys bastard son, the connection between the three is their mothers died in childbirth Lyanna Joanna Rhaella.) Also you have the dragon, direwolf, and the lion's blood.

I was also thinking that Bran could be one of the Dragon riders if Jon or Tyrion arent, the three-eyed crow is telling him he will fly as in on a dragon by warging into the dragon and flying like that. So the last greenseerer or the blackraven or three-eyed crow whatever is name is is teaching him everything about warging and first teaching him first to fly in a raven.

[Abel]

" Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman’s name. ... mother of dragons, daughter of death... Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. ...mother of dragons, slayer of lies... Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. ...mother of dragons, bride of fire..."

now we get the explanation for the blue eyes.

and through the other marked sentence, yeah i think waking stone dragons might actually be literally.

[Black Crow]

Having given a lot of thoght to this one I don't reckon that Jon is going to be Azor Ahai at all. On the contrary, given my firm belief that Melisandre is a Fire Demon (or more precisely a succubus - look at what she's doing to poor Stannis)and a pretty bloodthirsty one at that, I reckon Jon's ultimate role will be to kill Azor Ahai, whoever he or she might turn out to be, after the White Walkers and the Fire Demons have done for each other - and then go off to be King Beyond the Wall.

[Boy and Girl Wadish]

I'm somewhat baffled by how many people seem to think that Jon is Azor Ahai. I understand that when Melisandre looked into the flames and wanted to see Azor Ahai she kept seeing Jon, but isn't there a much better candidate? You know, Daenerys?

"when the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone."

That's the prophecy for Azor Ahai, correct?

Daenerys woke dragons from the stone eggs that she placed in the funeral pyre of her husband at night while the red comet was in the sky. From what I remember about fires, they tend to give off smoke. From what I remember about funerals, people tend to cry at them and tears have quite a bit of salt in them. She was, figuratively, reborn when she walked into the fire and became the Mother of Dragons. Further, Melisandre and her religion tend to view fire as a fantastic thing, so wouldn't a woman who is impervious to flame make a good candidate for a Messiah?

If Dany is AA, who would be her Nissa Nissa? Rhaego? Drogo? But then she wouldn't have their lifeblood, and if I remember correctly, Lightbringer was forged in Nissa Nissa's lifeblood. (Or something like that, anyway).

[mitch2302]

To the people saying that Dany is AA because everything fits perfectly... i come to cast some doubt on that theory.

"In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."

From the wiki: prophesy states that "when the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone." This will occur after a long summer when an evil, cold darkness descends upon the world.[2]

much of the prophecy seems to reference the coming of AA AFTER a long summer, and after the long night has descended. However, when Dany was "reborn" with her dragons, that was during the long summer-- the fact that the events surrounding Jon's possible rebirth happen after the white raven is encountered (signalling the true onset of winter) makes him the only one so far (very possibly Victarion as well) that fits the prophecy.

I also might like to add that "waking" a stone dragon may have something to do with the line that Viserys II repeated so often, and may refer to Jon angering one of the other dragons? maybe angering Dragonstone, which belongs to Stannis? throwing stuff out there now.

[Knight of the Boneway]

"when the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone."

Azor Ahai is Victarion. General consensus seems to be that Azor Ahai needs to be a warrior. Victarion is. To become the hero he needed to be Azor Ahai killed his wife to temper his sword. Victarion killed his wife after she was violated by Euron and it tempered his resolve to overthrow Euron and take the dragons by force.

I'll skip the red star bit.

Darkness gathering can refer to the black pus infection gathering within his hand that is about to kill him.

Victarion is near death, but he is reborn stronger than ever with a new and improved hand.

This happens because his hand is now R'hllorfied and smoking.

The changes occuring to Victarion happen on a sea voyage. They are travelling on salt water.

Victarion has a dragon horn that can call and bind dragons to its will. The dragons currently have lairs in stone pyramids. It stands to reason that the horn would wake them.

Regarding the red star: "Come sunset, as the sea turned black as ink and the swollen sun tinted the sky a deep and bloody red, Victarion came back on deck."

[Ikonoklastik]

No, the quote is "I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow."

Notice "Snow" is capitalized, meaning a person, not snow, She sees Jon Snow.

She meant Ramsay Snow.

Ramsay is Azor Ahai.

[Abel]

I'm somewhat baffled by how many people seem to think that Jon is Azor Ahai. I understand that when Melisandre looked into the flames and wanted to see Azor Ahai she kept seeing Jon, but isn't there a much better candidate? You know, Daenerys?

"when the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone."

That's the prophecy for Azor Ahai, correct?

Daenerys woke dragons from the stone eggs that she placed in the funeral pyre of her husband at night while the red comet was in the sky. From what I remember about fires, they tend to give off smoke. From what I remember about funerals, people tend to cry at them and tears have quite a bit of salt in them. She was, figuratively, reborn when she walked into the fire and became the Mother of Dragons. Further, Melisandre and her religion tend to view fire as a fantastic thing, so wouldn't a woman who is impervious to flame make a good candidate for a Messiah?

yes i absolutly see your point. also the big red star in the heaven seems a more fitting sign than just the sigil of some knight (although first we got some introduction to the heraldry while we where showed the room of the former knights). but also it`s too early for AA to appear, cause it`s still summer.

so next thing was supposedly stated a lot of times, but

can you imagine daenerys with a sword? there are swords women in this book, but she isn`t one of them.

[Roza Ahai]

I also might like to add that "waking" a stone dragon may have something to do with the line that Viserys II repeated so often, and may refer to Jon angering one of the other dragons? maybe angering Dragonstone, which belongs to Stannis? throwing stuff out there now.

If Jon=Raeghar's son then his dragon part (Targ's genes)is frozen aka stone. So he needs to wake up his own dragon (Targ's genes.

[pow]

Already covered...

[undyingone]

Also, the solution to the Dany prophecy (Mirri) was more symbolic than literal (Quentyn dying, the pyramids falling, and the Dothraki sea crumbling).

Kg1982,

what's up, just wondering what you meant by this? do you mean this fullfills the prophecy about going east to go west, north to go south, etc...?

thanks

[kg1982]

No... Mirri's prophecy in Game of Thrones.

[RedTank]

I was thinking Jon = ptwp because of the whole '' promise me, Ned '' thing. That and he could possibly meet the requirements. Of course, all depending if R + L = J is true.

[Kadence]

I think people are getting confused - Mel never asked for Azor Ahai. Her prayer was:

Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument.

Later she thinks to herself,

I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hollor shows me only Snow.

But she never *asked* for Azor Ahai. She simply assumed she was asking for Azor Ahai. She actually asked for "king" and "instrument".

We know Jon is probably Rhaeghar's true heir, and he seems to be this "instrument" as well. But he might be Azor Ahai, and he might not be. R'hollor never indicated anything about Azor Ahai. Mel just misunderstood as usual.

Well, if Jon is R+L, he is the dragon that should be awakened and we do not need to involve Shireen if not for a possible sacrifice. You need to sacrifice the king and the king's son to wake the dragon according to Mel's version of the prophecy. But if the prophecy is in High Valyrian, there is no male and female and the queen and his daughter could suffice and it would be quite ironic to see Selyse sacrificed by the red priestess :D. I know, I know, quite crackpot and convoluted... but who knows. The "from stone" part could work if even Selyse has the Greyscale.

Except Mel doesn't know what the hell she's talking about :) I doubt burning king's blood has anything to do with waking dragons.

In fact, "There is power in King's blood" could very well mean Jon himself. Jon is King's blood and he is obviously important, perhaps he himself is this "power".

[DaNmarner]

Good point. However, Mel was looking for Stannis as AA. We know that Stannis was in the middle of battle for Deepwood Moot. Now he is moving to Winterfell. The battle for Winterfell is coming but Rhlorr does not show Mel what she wanted to see (Stannis). It seems Rhlorr is screeming "You are wrong! You have only one person to worry about that is important for the future." Rhlorr could show Stannis for one glimpse as he did with Karstark girl and his war is more significant than Alys' coming to the Wall. In Torros fire Rhlorr did not ignore the red priest's request to show what is happening in Riverlands.

Yes, R'hllor shows what he wills, according to the observer's will or not.

It is reasonable to assume that the words about Dany has widely reached westeros. Mel could be well aware that her King has not a dragon yet and a much better candidate presents herself. She seeks vision for Stannis because she believes he has a roll to play in the North and the coming wall against the others.

GRRM in this sense is very like the Lord of Light, yes, there's a Mel chapter, but he chooses what to show us in side her head. Much and more she has seen and GRRM tells what he want us to know.

[nothatso]

I think people are getting confused - Mel never asked for Azor Ahai.

It sounds almost as if you are taking two pages as a summarization of Melisandre's entire existence. We don't know how many times she's asked to see Azor Ahai by name, abbreviation, or title, and seen Jon. Many people are looking at her thought("I pray for a vision of Azor Ahai, but R'hollor shows me only Snow") as a sign of frustration over repeated tries. The first italicized thought of the chapter is "One more time" in the same paragraph in which she asks for this vision. Yes, there is a chance that she is just asking the wrong question repeatedly. It may also not be out of the question that you are taking her question too literally. R'hollor's chosen king doesn't seem likely to be anyone other than AA, but I guess it's possible if you want to take it exactly as it's written.

[Été]

"Your king, your instrument," seems to refer to AA whereas, "Show me Stannis," is obviously more explicit.

The bit about asking for AA and seeing only Snow certainly makes it sound as though this is something she's had to put up with for some time, however she words it.

[Kadence]

It sounds almost as if you are taking two pages as a summarization of Melisandre's entire existence. We don't know how many times she's asked to see Azor Ahai by name, abbreviation, or title, and seen Jon.

Not sure why you are acting like we don't know how Martin works like by now. Martin showed us only this once what she actually asked for. Is this accidental? Not much of what Martin does is accidental.

Many people are looking at her thought("I pray for a vision of Azor Ahai, but R'hollor shows me only Snow") as a sign of frustration over repeated tries.

She can say whatever she wants about asking for Azor Ahai. The one and only time we were in her head - she did not ask for Azor Ahai. She asked for king and instrument. Yet most in this topic are acting like she asked for AA. For all we know this has never happened.

Yes, there is a chance that she is just asking the wrong question repeatedly.

Well no matter what she's asking the wrong question repeatedly, we as readers know this. She shouldn't be asking for his king, instrument, AA, whatever if she's looking for Stannis because he's none of those. So yes she is absolutely asking the wrong question without a doubt. That was probably the main purpose of her chapter - to show she's not asking the right questions in her visions, but that the answer to the ones she is asking is Snow.

It may also not be out of the question that you are taking her question too literally. R'hollor's chosen king doesn't seem likely to be anyone other than AA, but I guess it's possible if you want to take it exactly as it's written.

Taking Martin in any other way is foolish at this point. This is typical Martin deceptiveness. Showing us the one direct hint that all the indirect stuff is false. I have no idea why you think it's remotely safe to assume Mel ever asked for AA and saw Snow, when the only time we saw this, she never asked for AA. And some paragraphs down she thought to herself she asked for Azor Ahai! When she never did. This is typical Martin, and I don't even think it's subtle.

I mean really, she doesn't ask for Azor Ahai yet on the next page thinks to herself that she asked for Azor Ahai. Seems to be a big clue right there. Jon might still be Azor Ahai, but this chapter is not really indicating that.

"Your king, your instrument," seems to refer to AA

Melisandre assumes his king and instrument is Azor Ahai and she could well be wrong. R'hollor's champion may not be Azor Ahai after all, or perhaps it is - and perhaps AA is actually three people, with only one of them qualifying as "king" (Dany would be "queen", and the third person might be neither king or queen). Lots of things are possible. At this point it is simply not safe to assume that Melisandre is right about very much when it comes to the Azor Ahai prophecy.

[Ninotchka]

She can say whatever she wants about asking for Azor Ahai. The one and only time we were in her head - she did not ask for Azor Ahai. She asked for king and instrument. Yet most in this topic are acting like she asked for AA. For all we know this has never happened.

I have no idea why you think it's remotely safe to assume Mel ever asked for AA and saw Snow, when the only time we saw this, she never asked for AA. And a couple paragraphs down she thought to herself she asked for Azor Ahai! When she never did. This is typical Martin, and I don't even think it's subtle.

I mean really, she doesn't ask for Azor Ahai yet on the same page thinks to herself that she asked for Azor Ahai. Seems to be a big clue right there. Jon might still be Azor Ahai, but this chapter is not really indicating that.

If you take it this literally, then Melisandre isn't asking R'hllor for a glimpse of "his king, his instrument" but of Stannis himself. Then, why R'hllor shows her Jon when she is asking for Stannis? "Show me Stannis", that, there you got, Snow. It makes no sense :dunno: unless Jon IS Stannis and we don't know it yet :smug: