[ADwD Spoilers] Azor Ahai and Jon

[dreamcatcher]

I much prefer Jon to be nearly dead, not dead when next we visit the Wall. I'd rather see him brought back from the brink of death than brought back from being dead.

I think that Jon has to die (for real) to be relieved of his vows... Even convincing everyone into thinking that he's dead would be wrong.

[Whatever]

I've never been in the "Jon is AA" team, until i read dance. There are many signs - the smoke, the salt, the bleeding star. More important, we KNOW that TPTWP = AA and, with R+L looking more and more certain every day, jon is the only "candidate" (the others being Dany, Stannis & Baby Aegon) who has a real connection to "ice and fire". Besides, daenerys does now look like she doesn't seem to give a crap about westeros, which is WHERE AA is really needed. Both Stannis and Aegon are much less likely.

On the other hand, mel seems completely sure that stannis is AA. Now that he is dead (or so she thinks) she *might* start to reconsider her convictions.. but we don't know yet.

Anyway, i found very interesting melisandre's visions when she is looking for stannis "the lord's instrument" and how "all she see is snow" (which is, IMO, a way to not directly tell jon she sees him in his fires

What I am thinking is for the AA prophecy to be fulfilled with the signs that people have deduced, Jon's revival/rebirth needs to happen right then and there. Right now Jon DIED amid the smoke and the salt, he DIED under the bleeding star.

What if Jon gets revived days later when Patrek's body has been removed, all the blood has been cleaned, and nobody is crying? Sure other conditions can be met at that time.

My point is, until we get to see what happens after the assassination, I am skeptical about these so called signs.

This.

I agree, if Jon "comes back" / heals, this will happen quickly (how long will it take for mel to come out and try to heal him /give him the kiss of life?)...although i can't figure out how the happening-quickly theory can be related to mel's vision (jon turning into wolf AND THEN into man again. It's going to take a few hours at least!)

I also agree with you that we can't be sure until we'll find out what happens next.

The probable solution is that both Dany and Jon have claim to the prophetic title and we might never find out who is the actual Azor Ahai.

this sounds like GRRM :D

I hope to the red god he doesn't have to kill Ghost.

what an AWFUL thought!

[Free Northman]

Seeing as I haven't seen an appropriate Jon-related topic to post this under, let me point out how utterly embarrassed those of us are now who used to propose Jon as one of the top swordsmen in the series.

The loser got himself clobbered by a backwoods singer in a one on one duel!

Here we were putting Jon up as a possible contender to take on the best trained swordsmen in Westeros, such as the Hound, Jaime Lannister, Arthur Dayne and Bronze Yohn Royce, only for some primitive Wildling who probably never gets to train with a proper master at arms and who spends most of his time playing the harp to outclass him six-love.

What an utter disappointment.

If you can't beat some primitive Wildling you have no hope in hell against a real, professionally trained swordsman such as the Hound.

Jon better hope for a magic sword of fire, because without it his swordskills are apparently nothing to write home about.

[dreamcatcher]

Seeing as I haven't seen an appropriate Jon-related topic to post this under, let me point out how utterly embarrassed those of us are now who used to propose Jon as one of the top swordsmen in the series.

The loser got himself clobbered by a backwoods singer in a one on one duel!

Here we were putting Jon up as a possible contender to take on the best trained swordsmen in Westeros, such as the Hound, Jaime Lannister, Arthur Dayne and Bronze Yohn Royce, only for some primitive Wildling who probably never gets to train with a proper master at arms and who spends most of his time playing the harp to outclass him six-love.

What an utter disappointment.

If you can't beat some primitive Wildling you have no hope in hell against a real, professionally trained swordsman such as the Hound.

Jon better hope for a magic sword of fire, because without it his swordskills are apparently nothing to write home about.

Haha, you're disillusioned quickly! It has been suggested that something was up with the whole "his fingers were stiff and he somehow couldn't unsheathe his sword' thing.

Edit: Oh you were talking about Mance. :$ I think it's because he was seeing a different armour so he struck in the wrong places.

[Whatever]

Seeing as I haven't seen an appropriate Jon-related topic to post this under, let me point out how utterly embarrassed those of us are now who used to propose Jon as one of the top swordsmen in the series.

The loser got himself clobbered by a backwoods singer in a one on one duel!

actually, i don't think that chapter was meant to show jon as weak (he lost against mance!) but rather, to show us mance as being good (he beat jon!). I had the impression jon is really improved (he fought against emmet's "three best" and we know how emmett was kicking his ass at the end of ASOS) and that mance is even better (he can hold a greatsword & be faster than a man with a lighter sword).

But, hey, i'm a mance fangirl.

[Free Northman]

actually, i don't think that chapter was meant to show jon as weak (he lost against mance!) but rather, to show us mance as being good (he beat jon!). I had the impression jon is really improved (he fought against emmet's "three best" and we know how emmett was kicking his ass at the end of ASOS) and that mance is even better (he can hold a greatsword & be faster than a man with a lighter sword).

But, hey, i'm a mance fangirl.

Mance sat around in a forest for the last 10 years. The Hound trained non stop as a professional knight for the last 10 years.

We don't know who the best warrior amongts the Wildlings is, but even if it is Mance, then Mance is merely the top swordsman out of a nation of 30 000 primitive forest dwellers, armed with a mix and match collection of wooden clubs, bronze swords and the odd chipped steel sword stolen from a Black Crow's corpse.

Those 30 000 aren't the size of the Wildlings army. That's the size of their entire nation. Men, women and children. Even if Mance is the top warrior amongst them, it means very little.

The Hound is perhaps the top warrior out of 20 million people in Westeros. The soldiers involved in the War of the Five Kings alone numbered about 200 000 men. That's almost 10 times the size of the Wildlings entire nation.

For Jon to come close to the top echelon of fighters in Westeros he has to be FAR better than the best the unprofessional and scattered Wildlings have to offer.

[Whatever]

Mance sat around in a forest for the last 10 years.....the best the unprofessional and scattered Wildlings have to offer.

mance fangirl mode: on

mance was a ranger of the watch before he became KBTW, and i don't think he was just sitting around. He unificated the wildlings, and this looks like a pretty hard task to me. Also, it's said that a) wildling *are* skilled with weapons. It's just that many of their weapons aren't that good & they lack discipline b)the wildlings only follows the strongs, and mance had to kill 3 wildling chief & defeat other 3 (two of them being tormund and styr the magnar. It's stated that the Thenns are better warriors than the average wildling).

You can't just say "the hound is way better than the best wildling sword will ever be" because you have no proof of it.. this is just what you think. Is stated somewhere that the wildlings aren't as good as the people beyond the wall? i don't think so. Have you ever seen a mance-vs-sandor match? No (but i'd love to see it!).

So i think you're mistaken here

mance fangirl mode: off.

lol. :D

[Vxx19]

Still hope Bran is AA...

Smoke = Library tower burning (the one used to distract people away from Bran)

Reborn = Bran's fall and recovery (obvious is obvious)

Salt = Catelyn's tears

Star bleeds = Red Comet (it already was there near the end of GoT)

Waking Dragons = Summer saw dragon in the sky after Winterfell sack (this does not have to be a real dragon)

Notice this also fits timeline for AA - reborn while salt and smoke, and then later wakes dragons.

Jon has yet to wake dragons from stone. (Braavosi loan... Unconvincing...)

Hmm I wonder what the 'great winged beast' which took wing from a stone tower is that breathes 'shadow fire' in a Dany prophecy. Is it the dragon Summer sees, and is it 'shadow fire' because the dragon isn't real? Or is this an actual dragon at Winterfell/Dragonstone?

[Whatever]

Jon has yet to wake dragons from stone. (Braavosi loan... Unconvincing...)

i don't get the connection between the loan and the stone dragons...

[Isoturius]

Still hope Bran is AA...

Smoke = Library tower burning (the one used to distract people away from Bran)

Reborn = Bran's fall and recovery (obvious is obvious)

Salt = Catelyn's tears

Star bleeds = Red Comet (it already was there near the end of GoT)

Waking Dragons = Summer saw dragon in the sky after Winterfell sack (this does not have to be a real dragon)

Notice this also fits timeline for AA - reborn while salt and smoke, and then later wakes dragons.

Jon has yet to wake dragons from stone. (Braavosi loan... Unconvincing...)

Hmm I wonder what the 'great winged beast' which took wing from a stone tower is that breathes 'shadow fire' in a Dany prophecy. Is it the dragon Summer sees, and is it 'shadow fire' because the dragon isn't real? Or is this an actual dragon at Winterfell/Dragonstone?

Im starting to believe Jon's rebirth destroys the wall and that he will be somekind of icy Targareyn/Stark hybrid.

As a writer GRRM has been so low key on speaking of the old doom, and what actually happened there, and im thinking it's about to be repeated in some way. I mean why not. Would be a hell of a way to send the pace of the story into lightspeed as we near the resolution.

But that's just my current opinion:)

[Corvinus85]

Seeing as I haven't seen an appropriate Jon-related topic to post this under, let me point out how utterly embarrassed those of us are now who used to propose Jon as one of the top swordsmen in the series.

The loser got himself clobbered by a backwoods singer in a one on one duel!

Here we were putting Jon up as a possible contender to take on the best trained swordsmen in Westeros, such as the Hound, Jaime Lannister, Arthur Dayne and Bronze Yohn Royce, only for some primitive Wildling who probably never gets to train with a proper master at arms and who spends most of his time playing the harp to outclass him six-love.

What an utter disappointment.

If you can't beat some primitive Wildling you have no hope in hell against a real, professionally trained swordsman such as the Hound.

Jon better hope for a magic sword of fire, because without it his swordskills are apparently nothing to write home about.

I have to totally disagree with you about Jon and agree with Whatever.

Mance is not some backwards wildling, and for the record, wildlings are considered ferocious fighters in general, they just lack the discipline.

But back to Mance: Qhorin said he was the best and the worst. The worst clearly refers to the fact that he was probably undisciplined, more wildling than crow. The best means he was probably a badass.

Then he goes and makes himself King-beyond-the-Wall. Remember the quote "there were five men making noise. Tormund was one, the Magnar the other. The other three I slew when it was plain they would rather fight than follow" (probably not exact quote), but my point is Mance slew a bunch of wildlings to become king. And I think Tormund mentioned that Mance defeated him, too, thus winning his allegiance.

[ramla]

I think people are just arguing semantics when they say she wasn't asking for AA.

[Kalasin]

The probable solution is that both Dany and Jon have claim to the prophetic title and we might never find out who is the actual Azor Ahai.

Interesting. This reminds me of the prophecy in Harry Potter. Two boys could have been the chosen one, but Harry wound up being it because Voldemort assumed it was Harry and his actions in attacking Harry and his family made it Harry. So circumstance made the choice.

Yes, I just made a Harry Potter reference.

[DaNmarner]

All these speculation from a few phrases make my head split.

R'hllor is not Mel's bitch, so he shows what he will.

Jon is dead, will not return.

If he does, he'll be patchface.

AA are the two meat loaf Jon had frozen in the ice cell. It turns out that Azor and Ahai are brothers.

TL; DR

Back to serious discussions!

[Isoturius]

All these speculation from a few phrases make my head split.

R'hllor is not Mel's bitch, so he shows what he will.

Jon is dead, will not return.

If he does, he'll be patchface.

AA are the two meat loaf Jon had frozen in the ice cell. It turns out that Azor and Ahai are brothers.

TL; DR

Back to serious discussions!

If GRRM went through the trouble of aligning all those images that particular way it's for a damn good reason...speaking as a writer I can also say doing that right takes time and balls, and it is handled with care to segway to something. I mean you'd have to be dull to not see that magic is escalating. What happened to Jon means something really huge is coming, and I mean crazy and epic huge. He is the hero of the story after all, but he might turn out to be less so, who knows, tis exciting either way:)

[Spring Bass]

I just noticed that Azor Ahai gets mentioned, again, in the last Jon chapter (although not by "Azor Ahai" - Jon mentions the "promised prince born in smoke and salt").

[slayer420]

I think jon is AA. This is how I see how mel thinks that Stanis was AA. She asked to see AA in the fire, she sees stanis so she thinks it is him. I think that she only saw him because he was her way to get to AA. So know when she asked she sees snow. Because stanis's part is done for her. Right before this Mel thinks some think like many a priest have been brought down from seeing false visons. mels pov is 32, jons last one is 66. How many times did she look in the fire between these times. I think she had alot of time to figure out who the real AA is.

[Markus]

For Jon to come close to the top echelon of fighters in Westeros he has to be FAR better than the best the unprofessional and scattered Wildlings have to offer.

Neither the average martial prowess of the wildlings nor their small population size say much about how good their best fighter is.

To offer an analogy, Switzerland is a small country and it's well possible that the average Swiss male is a worse tennis player than an average US male. This doesn't mean that Roger Federer is necessarily far worse than the best US players though. Hence, Jon doesn't necessarily have to be far better than Mance to be close to the top tier fighters in Westeros.

Moreover, one can even make a decent case that an average wildling fighter is no less skilled than an average fighter in the rest of Westeros -- the Halfhand suggests as much -- and is probably more experienced in actual combat opposed to just training.

As for Mance specifically, we simply don't know how good a fighter Mance is compared to others like Sandor, Garlan or Loras. I wouldn't be surprised if he is competitive against them though.

[Gemini]

Greetings and Salutations,

I honestly don't know who I think is double A, likely Jon, though I'd love to see it be someone like Davos. But I was thinking about something today that I've seen one or two people sort of mention on this thread regarding Jon's supposedly coming resurrection (I'm not entirely sold that Jon is dead at all.)

It seems most people saying Jon will be resurrected by Mel are automatically assuming that she is able to bring someone back to life with the kiss of fire. I think the grounds for this assumption are weak at best. So far it's only ever been done once to our knowledge: Thoros to Berric. I believe there's more significance to that event in relation to AA being reborn than some people are considering.

Let's assume that the kiss of fire resurrecting Berric was the direct will of the Lord of Light. (I'm not entirely convinced it was simply because I think it's entirely possible the powers of the red priests and priestesses aren't actually drawn from a god at all but have some other source and the religion just sprung up to explain this. For now though, let's just assume that there really is something to the Lord of Light.) The argument for it being directly R'hllor's will is simple: what else could it be? (Excluding the possibility of what I just mentioned in the parenthesis before, that the source is unknown.) We know that the kiss of fire doesn't always bring people back to life, so it isn't just something fire does in this world. It couldn't have been Thoros's will, since he seemed as surprised as anyone when Berric came back. It couldn't have been a unique ability of Thoros since I believe it's mentioned somewhere that he gave the kiss of fire at other times without the corpse coming back to life. And it can't be unique to Berric since he was able to pass it on to Catelyn.

So then, if this event was specifically orchestrated by R'hllor, what purpose does it serve for him? Was it his will that Berric start the BwB and run around trying to do justice? I'm not entirely convinced of this, since it seems like R'hllor's war is up in the north against the Others. Also, if it was supposed to be for Berric to use, why was he even able to pass it on without his purpose being fulfilled? We have no reason to believe that Berric would have survived giving Catelyn the kiss even if she hadn't been three days dead when he found her. It could be that only one person at any one time is capable of possessing this life fire. If multiple people could have it, then why have we not heard of any others among the BwB being brought back? I'm sure some of them have been killed, but I don't think we've seen anything of them being restored to life. The theory I'm proposing is that the purpose of this life fire is so that it will inevitably be passed to R'hllor's true instrument, through who knows how many individuals.

So Catelyn has it now. Unless she suddenly becomes much more concerned with the goings-on up north, I don't think she'll be the one holding on to it in the end. I doubt killing Freys is up there on R'hllors to-do list. I wonder who she'll pass it on to? Jaime and Brienne are known to be around her at the moment. I know some people in the "Brienne collecting Jaime" thread believe Brienne has already been killed and resurrected fire-breath style, but I don't believe there's any really clear evidence of that. I read some other suggestions that Jaime will be killed and zombified, but I can't imagine why in the name of tootsie-rolls Catelyn would want to bring him back to life. I take that back; there is one reason I can imagine. I suppose it's possible she would bring him back just so she could kill him again, but that's assuming that she does not die herself when she passes on the life fire. (I really hope this isn't the case since Jaime is my favorite character and I suspect he may already be dead. :crying: ) It does seem like it could be one of them though, or at least their presence there is somewhat important, considering that brings Oathkeeper around too, which some people believe is going to end up being Lightbringer.

But anyway, it could be someone else entirely. Maybe that person will pass the life-breath on to someone else, and then someone else after that, until someday it reaches AA, who may or may not be Jon. I'm not sure whether or not I like this theory, since I'm not a huge fan of all the undead dudes and dudettes running around right now, but it's just something I was thinking about today. If the life-breath that was given to Berric ends up not having anything to do with the AA prophecy or any other R'hllor-esq agenda, I think that's the biggest piece of evidence we have for the Lord of Light religion being a bunch of bull, or at least R'hllor's motives being very different from what we've been lead to believe.

And... I've gone on for entirely too long, I think. :drunk: I hope this made some sense, and I hope I didn't forget anything that makes this theory completely void, but please point it out if I have. :cheers:

[Ibbison from Ibben]

I don't buy Jon=AA.

Jon may think his wound is smoking, but unless Marsh stabbed him with a red-hot dagger it isn't. His wound is steaming. Steam is different than smoke. The guy getting ripped apart by Wun Wun is a blue star, no matter how red his hair is. Jon as AA is a big ol' red herring.

Dany is AA. "...reborn again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone." Salt=tears is a false lead. When Dany hatched the dragons, she was sweating like a mother (of dragons). How is Jon ever going to wake dragons out of stone? Her "burning sword" "draw[n] from the fire" are the dragons. She has yet to temper them or herself).