[ADwD Spoilers] Azor Ahai and Jon

[MikyST]

Now im 99% shure Jon IS AA.

Today on not a blog some guy wrote:

Waiting for you over the sea...

Geroge, hope to see you in Italy, too! We're waiting for you for our next Lucca Comics and Games (with a huuuuuge cosplay group from ASoIaF :P), and we would be pleased to encount you (we have wine... you can't refuse! XD)

I'm reading A Dance With Dragons, even if it's not been published here yet... I have my english copy. WHAT THE HELL, what are you planning to do to "my" Jon?!

After reading this my reply was:

Open your eyes Martin is whispering to us all the time. I'll give you a hint. Melisande in her fires sees Snow or snow. In what circumstances was Jon stabbed.

30 mins later my post was DELETED ^^. Why would Martin do something like that if it didn't smell like truth, if it wasn't spoiling the surprise?

[aryastark]

I agree that Dany beeing AA fits better , or at least up to this point, the only problem i have with this theory is Lightbringer, if i recall corectly Dany is never mentioned to carry any kind of weapon with her, much less of using one, of what use should that sword be to her, i cant picture Dany carrying a flaming sword around or actually using a sword like this, thats why i lean more towards Jon beeing AA and Dany beeeing tPtwP.

[Chromatos]

Lightbringer is the Night's Watch itself.

From their vows:

"I am the sword in the darkness." ... "I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn"

I'm not sure how the whole forging/reforging part fits yet, but it might have something to do with his trying to include Stannis's men and the Wildlings.

Besides, what is the role of the Night's Watch, other than to fight the great other?

Also, I do think that "dying" frees him from his vows, but this will let him *use* the NW instead of being part of it.

[dreamcatcher]

Now im 99% shure Jon IS AA.

Today on not a blog some guy wrote:

Waiting for you over the sea...

Geroge, hope to see you in Italy, too! We're waiting for you for our next Lucca Comics and Games (with a huuuuuge cosplay group from ASoIaF :P), and we would be pleased to encount you (we have wine... you can't refuse! XD)

I'm reading A Dance With Dragons, even if it's not been published here yet... I have my english copy. WHAT THE HELL, what are you planning to do to "my" Jon?!

After reading this my reply was:

Open your eyes Martin is whispering to us all the time. I'll give you a hint. Melisande in her fires sees Snow or snow. In what circumstances was Jon stabbed.

30 mins later my post was DELETED ^^. Why would Martin do something like that if it didn't smell like truth, if it wasn't spoiling the surprise?

You wrote a spoiler (Jon stabbed).

[Ygritte]

Snow with a capital S, not the frozen kind. So her response is interesting later, in Jon's POV after Alys' wedding, when he asks Mel about her visions:

I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that here too, she's seeing Snow with a capital S. If she simply prayed for a vision of Stannis, then no doubt she'd see plenty of the frozen variety, but Mel has been asking the wrong question.

Exactly. It's capitalized in Mel's POV because she saw the vision herself and knows she means "Jon Snow" not "white fluffy stuff." In Jon's POV, though, it's not capitalized because he has no way of hearing the capital letter she's thinking. :) Jon has no reason to think he has any great destiny and so it doesn't even occur to him.

[Songstress]

I have never seen any reference to Elia having a second child, a son. Nothing about the woman or child is revealed in Daenerys' vision. :(

*baffled*

No really.

:huh:

[Sega AM2]

While we haven't seen Howland Reed as a POV character, we have heard a story about him from Jojen and Meera. They discussed this HUGE tourney at Harrenhall where there were 4 Starks.

That story is the Knight of the Laughing Tree (Lyanna Stark), where the Dragon Prince (Rhaegar) crowned the She-Wolf (Lyanna Stark again) as the Queen of Love and Beauty setting up Robert's Rebellion.

http://www.towerofthehand.com/books/103/025/index.html

[The Red Keep]

Exactly. It's capitalized in Mel's POV because she saw the vision herself and knows she means "Jon Snow" not "white fluffy stuff." In Jon's POV, though, it's not capitalized because he has no way of hearing the capital letter she's thinking. :) Jon has no reason to think he has any great destiny and so it doesn't even occur to him.

Exactly. One of those great instances where POV directly affects the interpretation of information. :)

[modehead]

I mean...

If

1. R+L=J
   
2. Warlock's "Song of Ice (Stark) and Fire (Targaryen)"
   
3. Mel's prophecy DID fit the prose Martin used to carry out Jon's murder.
   

Then it's pretty clear Jon is The Prince. But there's alot of ifs.

I really doubt that GRRM would kill Jon like that. Ned's death and even Rob's death had some sort of plot, exposing a Achilles heel, in turn being great fiction. Jon getting murdered for allowing the wildlings to station empty bases was a bit rash.

Also, completely beside the point. Arya. Aria. Song. I like that.

[Saracen]

That story is the Knight of the Laughing Tree (Lyanna Stark), where the Dragon Prince (Rhaegar) crowned the She-Wolf (Lyanna Stark again) as the Queen of Love and Beauty setting up Robert's Rebellion.

http://www.towerofthehand.com/books/103/025/index.html

Wrong that was most likely Howland himself and rhaeger crowned her Queen of Love in another tourney

[Auska]

I'd like to know where the "Song of Ice and Fire" comes from, as seen in Dany's vision dream of Rhaegar in Clash of Kings.

You see, after Bran's own chapters and his encounter with Those Who Sing, I think the whole concept of the "Song of Ice and Fire" has just taken new dimension. It is no longer simply a fancy turn of word for "he'll be awesome", but has the potential for real power, given how the Children of the Forest are all about singing.

I thought exactly the same thing, and started looking through if anyone had had this idea. According to the vision, “his song is the song of ice and fire”. Bran's band is singing the song of the earth (in their own words*)? By the wording, we could extrapolate that each of the three has their own song, whether literal or metaphoric.

Bran himself seems unlikely to be one of the three, though obviously it's not impossible if we remove the assumption that they must be Targaryen or Valyrian. Bran is potentially a huge factor in the north and the lands beyond, after all. On the other hand, perhaps less implausibly, we could assume that whoever this prince is, they must have a connection to Team Bran. Who better than Jon, who might be better accessible to Bran in his current state?

I assume this theory's already been posited (and shot down) somewhere previously?

* There's also a fun potential linguistic connotation: the song of the earth is sung in the True Tongue. The song of ice and fire could be in Valyrian or another human language?

[Ser Joe the Unknighted]

A few thoughts:

In Clash, Daenerys has the following vision:

It corresponds very well with Melisandres words:

If I recall correctly, Jon was stabbed inside the tower where Val was living, or at least very close to it. Maybe a dragon wakes from the stone in this tower?

As far as I know, the fate of Queen Alysanne's dragon Silverwing is never described. It's a long shot, but it could be sleeping underneath Castle Black.

Shireen has visions of stone dragons as well, and she has greyscale. Also, she is of Targaryen descent through her Baratheon family. Waking a dragon from stone could be figuratively in that Shireen might be cured of her greyscale or in some way be awakened.

One other thought: Melisandre identifies herself as the best at having prophetic visions in her order, and at the very least she is good. Unfortunately she is terrible at interpreting her visions. Still, she must have seen something leading her to beleive that Stannis is Azor Ahai, even if it is wrong. I could imagine a few visions of Stannis and Jon talking or fighting together where she could have jumped to conclusions about which of them was actually AA. Nothing that is even close to evidence, but it makes sense that she is getting closer to finding out who AA is, and not just chasing a completely wrong vision, but who knows.

Won Won was outside gaurding Val who was being held in the former Lord commander's tower that was broken at the top from when Jon burned it down trying to kill the wight who came on a night when darkness and cold were gathering. Does any of that factor in maybe. Longclaw was found in the ashes of that tower by the way.

[Ser Joe the Unknighted]

Where is the tower of Joy? Is it on the coast? Did Ned burn it down to get the stones for the funeral pyres? Was Jon born at the tower of Joy by the salty sea shortly before it was burned down? Was a dragon woken out of a broken stone tower? I don't know.

[Ser Joe the Unknighted]

I love hoe everyone thinks The Song of Ice and Fire is so different from regular fantasy. Everyone argues that this or that can't happen because it would be to much like regular fantasy. The books have dragons, knights, magic, unicorns are mentioned, prophesies factor into the series in a big way, and there is even a prophesized hero who will be born again. Jon fits very well into the hero's journey arch (Unknown parentage, potential secret claim to the thrown, humble origins, and he might even be an orphan raised by an uncle). There are purely villianous characters, Cersei, Ser Gregor, Tywin Lannister, The Ghiscary slavers, and of course the pure evil codness of the others.

The only reason people thought it was so much different froim regular fantasy was because it was more violent, had real curses, and had more sex and complex political plots involved and the percieved main character died in the first book and the third book. Now that other characters appear to be more important we realize that ned andRob were just supporting characters. Other than those the book has many of the traditional elements of the traditional heroes journey of many fantasy stories. Why is it so bad that this is a tradional fantasy as long as its a well written, well thought out series that tells a great story.

[TracyDK]

That story is the Knight of the Laughing Tree (Lyanna Stark), where the Dragon Prince (Rhaegar) crowned the She-Wolf (Lyanna Stark again) as the Queen of Love and Beauty setting up Robert's Rebellion.

http://www.towerofthehand.com/books/103/025/index.html

But I see the Knight of the Laughing Tree to Howland Reed himself, not Lyanna Stark.

[nategator]

I love hoe everyone thinks The Song of Ice and Fire is so different from regular fantasy. Everyone argues that this or that can't happen because it would be to much like regular fantasy. The books have dragons, knights, magic, unicorns are mentioned, prophesies factor into the series in a big way, and there is even a prophesized hero who will be born again. Jon fits very well into the hero's journey arch (Unknown parentage, potential secret claim to the thrown, humble origins, and he might even be an orphan raised by an uncle). There are purely villianous characters, Cersei, Ser Gregor, Tywin Lannister, The Ghiscary slavers, and of course the pure evil codness of the others.

The only reason people thought it was so much different froim regular fantasy was because it was more violent, had real curses, and had more sex and complex political plots involved and the percieved main character died in the first book and the third book. Now that other characters appear to be more important we realize that ned andRob were just supporting characters. Other than those the book has many of the traditional elements of the traditional heroes journey of many fantasy stories. Why is it so bad that this is a tradional fantasy as long as its a well written, well thought out series that tells a great story.

And all the times that Martin put in his books how you cannot trust prophecy were, what, red herrings and instead we could trust prophecy to give us all the plot points?

Sorry QM was the traditional hero's journey, up until he got rejected by the beautiful girl who was busy fucking the bad boy and then burned to a crisp by the dragon.

[Reyne]

And all the times that Martin put in his books how you cannot trust prophecy were, what, red herrings and instead we could trust prophecy to give us all the plot points?

Sorry QM was the traditional hero's journey, up until he got rejected by the beautiful girl who was busy fucking the bad boy and then burned to a crisp by the dragon.

Well, I think losing half of his group to pirates was the first end to the hero's journey.

[GoodKingAlf]

But I see the Knight of the Laughing Tree to Howland Reed himself, not Lyanna Stark.

It's all in the text of the book.

The Crannogmen are not trained in arms like normal Westerosi nobles. They aren't trained to ride. They have no knights.

Whoever entered the Tourney had to have been an experienced and good rider.

There have been lots of hints in the book from several sources that Lyanna was an excellent rider (one even from Roose in ADWD).

And then there is the whole stuff about Aerys ordering Rhaegar to find the knight... which he says he can't... and then the next thing he crowns Lyanna the love and beauty thing.

The suggestion being that Rhaegar found out it was Lyanna who was the Knight and was massively impressed.

[Geddus]

But I see the Knight of the Laughing Tree to Howland Reed himself, not Lyanna Stark.

Both are possible, but in this last book several people commented on Lyanna's incredible riding skill. I think there's a reason for that.

[TracyDK]

It's all in the text of the book.

The Crannogmen are not trained in arms like normal Westerosi nobles. They aren't trained to ride. They have no knights.

Whoever entered the Tourney had to have been an experienced and good rider.

There have been lots of hints in the book from several sources that Lyanna was an excellent rider (one even from Roose in ADWD).

And then there is the whole stuff about Aerys ordering Rhaegar to find the knight... which he says he can't... and then the next thing he crowns Lyanna the love and beauty thing.

The suggestion being that Rhaegar found out it was Lyanna who was the Knight and was massively impressed.

While this is true, Crannogmen also don't leave their swamps, this Crannogman is different. Also if Howland Reed weren't skilled enough in fighting why would he ride with Ned into battle against the three BEST Kingsguard? I think Howland Reed must be an exceptional Crannogman and that would make sense that he would be the Knight of the Laughing Tree. But it'll be something we find out to be true or we will just be left with speculation.