[ADwD Spoilers] Azor Ahai and Jon

[Ipse Dixit 000]

But it could be what is special about Lightbringer is not the sword itself, but who wields it. Maybe a big deal is made of the sword not because it's Super Special Magic, but simply because it is the sword wielded by AA. Longclaw is already a magic sword, after all, and from what legends say Valyrian Steel does not need any flashy pyrotechnics to cut down Others.

After all, AA was a hero, a savior, and so by default whatever sword he wielded must have been special. It could have been made of pig iron for all we know, but as far as legend was concerned it must have been a Flaming Sword of Awesome with a whole backstory and ritual to its forging. Anything less would be inappropriate. :)

My thinking is that the whole "hero with special magic sword" deal is not only a classic fantasy trope, but it is also a classic element of most hero myths in medieval settings. As such, it is entirely possible that GRRM will just have Longclaw be "Lightbringer", because the whole bit about flames and such was added to the AA legend after the fact (which is EVEN MORE likely given it is attached to a religion obsessed with flames).

So sure, maybe it'll spout flames (I mean, we KNOW it's possible, Beric did it after all), but it's not necessary for the fulfillment of prophecy or Jon's role as AA/PWWP (assuming we are correct, of course). He'll be just as heroic and impressive with an Other-melting Dragonsteel sword, I say. :)

That said, assuming he is who we think he is and Melisandre nearby, she will probably scramble frantically to make Longclaw spout flames (illusory or not) the moment she realizes Jon is AA. :)

Thank you.

Itkovian

GRRM is definitely fond of subverting tropes. I wouldn't be at all shocked if there is no magic sword. Or if everyone's right. Maybe everyone who fits the AA prophecy turns out to be AA. No rule says the prophecy has to apply to only one person.

Or maybe GRRM has been subverting tropes as a set up, just so he can turn around and have us all be shocked when it turns out to be a hero with a magic sword at the end.

[Aegon II]

"when the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone."

red star bleeds = stannis wounded/slain (his coat of arms, black stag with red hearts)

darkness gathers = Nightwatch wears black

smoke = daenerys on drogon belching black smoke

salt = victarion, the sea commander, making his move towards meereen

Most likely daenerys allies with Victarion, as business partner or marriage, i'm leaning towards marriage, just kill the present king. voila, daenerys and her people goes to westeros.

Jon reborn amidst the targaryen and the kraken or simply Jon versus Daenerys/Victarion.

[RhaegarTargaryen]

Jon is the Prince that was Promised, Rhaegar's third son.

Dany is Azor Ahai reborn.

It is known.

[RhaegarTargaryen]

Jon is the Prince that was Promised, Rhaegar's third son. His is the song if Ice and Fire (He and Dany).

Dany is Azor Ahai reborn. The magic sword is her dragons, as she sacrificed her love to birth them.

In Dany's husband prophecy from the Undying, it was said her third husband would be a winter rose on a wall of ice. (Winter rose could mean blood from Bael the Bard (Jon; according to Ygritte), or represent the love between R+L (Which equals Jon))

It is known.

[Brutal_Roadrunner]

Jon is the Prince that was Promised, Rhaegar's third son. His is the song if Ice and Fire (He and Dany). Mel asked for the PTWP when she saw him in the fires.

Dany is Azor Ahai reborn. The magic sword is her dragons, as she sacrificed her love to birth them.

It is not known.

Melissandre was looking for Azor Ahai and the flames kept showing her Snow, all the signs are in place for him.

[nategator]

People interpret this quote to mean that Jon will be reborn:s "I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow."

They then extrapolate the Jon assassination (attempt) as fulfilling the general prophecy on how AA would be reborn.

However, the quote actually suggests that AA is already reborn as Jon. In other words, people are assuming two "rebirths": the first when Jon was born (and thus is AA by the time Mel views the flames) and the second when Jon is warg/plagiarized resurrected. As there is 0 textual support for two rebirths, Mel's vision cannot be use as support for the Jon resurrection prediction. Jon could still have been AA reborn and Jon can still be resurrected, but combining the two theories is sloppy reasoning.

[RhaegarTargaryen]

Dany being AA fits perfectly.

Jon or Dany being the PTWP fits well.

[Été]

People interpret this quote to mean that Jon will be reborn:s "I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow."

They then extrapolate the Jon assassination (attempt) as fulfilling the general prophecy on how AA would be reborn.

However, the quote actually suggests that AA is already reborn as Jon. In other words, people are assuming two "rebirths": the first when Jon was born (and thus is AA by the time Mel views the flames) and the second when Jon is warg/plagiarized resurrected. As there is 0 textual support for two rebirths, Mel's vision cannot be use as support for the Jon resurrection prediction. Jon could still have been AA reborn and Jon can still be resurrected, but combining the two theories is sloppy reasoning.

Azor Ahai Reborn simply seems to refers to the second coming of Azor Ahai and shouldn't necessarily have to involve a resurrection. Mel's flames already identify him as Azor Ahai. The thing is, we have no details about red stars, smoke, salt etc at Jon's birth, but the conditions of the prophecy fit Jon's resurrection pretty well.

Thematically, he's "killed the boy" and is going to finally take on the AAR persona when he returns to the world. (Did anyone order waffles? :blushing: )

(And paralelly, Dany´s fire for death being the fire at the Undying and Drogon´s fire at Meereen at the same time!)

I thought the fire for death was the one that killed MMD... could be any of them really.

So, could be Longclaw, could be any sword, though I think valyrian steel would be better, withstanding dragonfire (where's that description!?).

My question: who would be the loved one he (or whoever) has to kill to make a sword lightbringer?

I'm deeply concerned Mel will decide the glamour's not enough and will make Stannis sacrifice Shireen to forge "Lightbringer".

Jon mentions in Dance that Valyrian steel was forged in dragonfire, so Longclaw or any other Valyrian sword is a pretty good bet. Can't rule out Oathkeeper either - that sword has a whiff of Chekov about it.

[Lady of Casterly Rock]

Dany being AA fits perfectly.

Jon or Dany being the PTWP fits well.

I think it´s the other way around.

Dany fits on the Ptwp-prophety.

Maester Aegon believed it. I think the prophesy was made by one of his relatives (not sure if it was his brother or someone older). That means Aegon knew the words of the prophesy. And he thinks it fits with the things he knows about Dany.

Aegon things AA reborn= the Ptwp, so the thinks Dany is AA reborn to.

I think in the books are signs that AA reborn and tPtwp are two different persons.

In the books parts of the AA reborn prophecy are given. And I expect that the further books will show that the words fit with the things that will happen to Jon. I don´t think that the slain knight with the stars as coat of arms is the red star. But we´ll see.

Jon = AA reborn war foreshadowed by Mels vision.

[Ninotchka]

In Dany's husband prophecy from the Undying, it was said her third husband would be a winter rose on a wall of ice. (Winter rose could mean blood from Bael the Bard (Jon; according to Ygritte), or represent the love between R+L (Which equals Jon))

Wait, wait... "Dany's husband prophecy"? What "husband prophecy"? :shocked: Crap, six years thinking and I'm still in my swaddling clothes :frown5:

[Masha]

Didn't GRRM say in an interview that Jon Snow would become a grayer character, if that's the case Azor Ahai might not be a 'Crystal Direwolf Jesus'.

I think he described Jon's growth in ADWD

It matters because of his heritage, and his claim.

What do you think would have to happen for Jon to retain Command of the Wall? He was assassinated by a large conspiracy of Black Brothers, this is not something you can overlook. They do not love him now and will love him less after the mass executions take place.

If Jon retains Command of the Wall it will probably not be instantenous, it will take several chapters for him to recover (even if there is no wight or warg-Ghost storyline), during the time not only Watch will be locked in deadly struggle between Jon's loyalists +/- Wildlings and conversatives/assassins, but most likely the Others will also make a devastating assault on the Wall during that time, so the Wall might fall or its enchantments fail. So by the time Jon is revived enough to re-take command, most of the assassins might be dead and the whole NW will probably be desparate enough to beg him to re-take command.

I just hope Jon won't go the way Starbuck in Battlestar Galactica went - revived to lead people to "promised land" and at the end fall over dead/vanish from mortal sight. But if Jon is revived as a good wight or undead with his own will, it will probably be the outcome...

[salinea]

Ohhh, hi! (I am breaking the boards, Stranger, I am breaking the boards, tried to post that already twice before).

The servers are robust.

I am thinking that a lot of these prophecies and promised figures can apply on several levels to different things.

Yeah, there's definitly that feeling. Like the infamous "Perfumed Seneschal". Can apply to one of Dany's adviser, can apply to the ship (which, after all, sunk), and can apply to the people on that ship (Moqorro and Tyrion); could even apply to Varys indeed.

Or the Pale Mare or Balerion as Daenarys' mount to dread.

It works either way.

[RhaegarTargaryen]

Valyrian steel is not destroyed by fire, but it is destroyed by Dragonfire.

Most of the Targaryen blades and dragons were destroyed in the Dance of the Dragons.

I think it´s the other way around.

Dany fits on the Ptwp-prophety.

Maester Aegon believed it. I think the prophesy was made by one of his relatives (not sure if it was his brother or someone older). That means Aegon knew the words of the prophesy. And he thinks it fits with the things he knows about Dany.

Aegon things AA reborn= the Ptwp, so the thinks Dany is AA reborn to.

I think in the books are signs that AA reborn and tPtwp are two different persons.

In the books parts of the AA reborn prophecy are given. And I expect that the further books will show that the words fit with the things that will happen to Jon. I don´t think that the slain knight with the stars as coat of arms is the red star. But we´ll see.

Jon = AA reborn war foreshadowed by Mels vision.

First of all, it's Maester Aemon. He is very wise, but as far as these prophecies go, I do not think GRRM is going to hand us the answers on silver platters like that.

We KNOW it's not Stannis, but I do not believe it is Jon.

Clear evidence of Dany fulfilling the AA prophecy:

"She awoke the dragons out of her petrified stone eggs, on the very night she spotted the comet for the first time. (GoT, pg. 804). That night, there was smoke from the funeral pyre and salt from Dany’s tears. And she was ‘reborn’ in the sense that she emerged from the fire a stronger person--a leader whom the Dothraki would follow.

But how does Dany’s story match up with Salladhor’s? Well, one suggestion has been that her dragons are actually Lightbringer, because they can produce fire. This makes a great amount of sense. Like Azor Ahai, Dany tried three times to make her weapon--once while putting them on a brazier (GoT, pg. 593), once while coming out of her fevered nightmares (GoT, pg. 753-754), and finally succeeding on the third try at Drogo’s pyre. Also, like Azor Ahai, Dany sacrificed her spouse to make her weapon, and drew the weapon out of a fire."

As far as Jon's assassination, I do not think it was the watch, but moreso an individual effort by Bowen Marsh and his attendants.

[Wouter]

Jon is the Prince that was Promised, Rhaegar's third son.

Dany is Azor Ahai reborn.

I tend to agree. There seems to be much confusion between those prophecies and maybe this is about 2 sets of persons. If Jon is the Prince that was Promised, then to say "his will be the song of ice and fire" certainly makes sense. And he could still have the original Lightbringer sword, if it still exists - would be handy against the Others anyway.

Meanwhile, Dany could have constructed a new, relevant, metaphorical version of Lightbringer with her dragons - and be AA reborn. Her sacrifice is already clear: Drogo and her unborn son.

[MtnLion]

Jon is the Prince that was Promised' date=' Rhaegar's third son.

Dany is Azor Ahai reborn.

It is known.

[/quote']

Hmmm, my own thoughts on that is: First, Rhaegar had a daughter as his first born. Second, Rhaegar's son, named Aegon was heir to the Iron Throne, and thereby entitled to strong defense by the White Knights. Third, Aegon is referred to as the PTWP, and his is "the song of ice and fire". Which can be read as son (Aegon) of ice (Lyanna) and fire (Rhaegar). I think that after Elia's first pregnancy another was discouraged, forcing Rhaegar to marry a second time. When the invasion of King's Landing happened a baby was substituted for the missing Aegon, because it was known that Rhaegar had had a second child; a son.

A confirmation exists in the conversation between the White Knights and Ned at the Tower of Joy. They can only be defending the heir to the throne. In Daenerys' vision of the child, it is Rhaegar; looks like older Viserys but darker; but the woman and the child remain unidentified.

Melisandre has always sought Azor Ahai in her flames, but seems to always see Jon Snow. I don't argue that it seems to fit Daenerys' funeral pyre, but we have yet to see Jon reborn as a man (kill the boy, allow the man to be born.)

[RhaegarTargaryen]

Hmmm, my own thoughts on that is: First, Rhaegar had a daughter as his first born. Second, Rhaegar's son, named Aegon was heir to the Iron Throne, and thereby entitled to strong defense by the White Knights. Third, Aegon is referred to as the PTWP, and his is "the song of ice and fire". Which can be read as son (Aegon) of ice (Lyanna) and fire (Rhaegar). I think that after Elia's first pregnancy another was discouraged, forcing Rhaegar to marry a second time. When the invasion of King's Landing happened a baby was substituted for the missing Aegon, because it was known that Rhaegar had had a second child; a son.

A confirmation exists in the conversation between the White Knights and Ned at the Tower of Joy. They can only be defending the heir to the throne. In Daenerys' vision of the child, it is Rhaegar; looks like older Viserys but darker; but the woman and the child remain unidentified.

Melisandre has always sought Azor Ahai in her flames, but seems to always see Jon Snow. I don't argue that it seems to fit Daenerys' funeral pyre, but we have yet to see Jon reborn as a man (kill the boy, allow the man to be born.)

First: Forgive my mistake. I had meant the third child of Rhaegar.

Second: Aegon did not have the three Kings Guard with him at the Red Keep. It was Lyanna who had the three best KG guarding her.

Third: I agree that Rhaegar did say that Aegon's was the song of Ice and Fire, but I believe he was mistaken. Aegon was the son of Elia Martell (Sun) and Targaryen (Fire).

ADWD tells us that Aegon was substituted. This is known. However, it would be impossible and improbably for Aegon to be at the Tower of Joy. That theory doesn't make any sense.

Jon, if you believe the theory, is the son of Rhaegar (Fire) and Lyanna (Ice). The KG were at the ToJ when Lyanna was giving birth, after the sack of KL, where they believed Aegon had been killed. Therefore Jon would be the heir.

Jon cannot be AA. None of the prophecy fits without twisting events and small things. If he does die and is revived, then he would be Jon Snow reborn. Jon is more likely the Prince that was Promised.

[Été]

So hold on. What do we know about the PTWP?

-There must be three. (?)

-His is the song of ice and fire.

-The prophecy is in Valyrian so is gender-neutral.

-He/she is a descendent of Aerys and Rhaella.

I'll be annoyed if Aegon turns out to be real and fulfils a prophecy or rides a dragon. I want it to be someone who's been in the series from the start.

[MtnLion]

First: Forgive my mistake. I had meant the third child of Rhaegar.

Still have not seen definitively that Rhaegar had three children. I have seen proof of two' date=' Aegon being his first son.

Second: Aegon did not have the three Kings Guard with him at the Red Keep. It was Lyanna who had the three best KG guarding her.

Precisely my point, Lyanna has the child with her, that is the heir. It is the blue flower she drops when she dies. It is Aegon, aka Jon.

Third: I agree that Rhaegar did say that Aegon's was the song of Ice and Fire, but I believe he was mistaken. Aegon was the son of Elia Martell (Sun) and Targaryen (Fire).

Heh, I don't think Elia had more than one child. Did I make it that unclear?

ADWD tells us that Aegon was substituted. This is known. However, it would be impossible and improbably for Aegon to be at the Tower of Joy. That theory doesn't make any sense.

It does if Lyanna's son is Aegon.

Jon, if you believe the theory, is the son of Rhaegar (Fire) and Lyanna (Ice). The KG were at the ToJ when Lyanna was giving birth, after the sack of KL, where they believed Aegon had been killed. Therefore Jon would be the heir.

Jon (Aegon) was born before the Battle of the Trident, at least 8-9 months before the end of the war of the Usurper. The Tower of Joy episode was after the war was over, or nearly when it is over, as Daenerys is being born on Dragonstone.

Jon cannot be AA. None of the prophecy fits without twisting events and small things. If he does die and is revived, then he would be Jon Snow reborn. Jon is more likely the Prince that was Promised

We still do not know if the events surrounding Jon Snow being reborn will match the prophecies or not. Key to your argument of Daenerys is that she tried three times to hatch the eggs, but she really tried daily, after receiving the. She had placed candles in with the eggs in an attempt ti incubate them from the very beginning.

I just think that when we get the reveal it will be very apparent. Right now many things are clear as mud. I have never seen any reference to Elia having a second child, a son. Nothing about the woman or child is revealed in Daenerys' vision. :(

[WynterRavyn]

We don't know that Jon's actual birth doesn't match prophecy, because we don't know much about when/where he was born or who was there. He could have been born under a bleeding red star(even if it was just the banner/sigil of house Martell)and smoke and salt could mean being born by the sea near a campfire or something.

[TracyDK]

While I would LOVE to see Howland Reed at least as a character, if not a POV character, I have this sneaky suspicion that he will never appear in the story.

While we haven't seen Howland Reed as a POV character, we have heard a story about him from Jojen and Meera. They discussed this HUGE tourney at Harrenhall where there were 4 Starks. A boisterous older male, a quiet solemn male, a wild girl and a younger boy. The girl prevented the Frey's from beating on the little Cronnagman. I would take that to be Howland Reed, because he's the ONLY one mentioned taking up arms in Robert's Rebellion and riding with Ned Stark. I think that tourney brought the families together and the feelings of loyalty from the Cronnagmen towards the Starks. While I'd love to have more information on these interesting people who've managed to stay out of the War of Five Kings (for the most part), I'm not so sure we're going to get much more.