[ADWD Spoilers] Val

[reiver]

She may not be a princess but she would make a worthy wife for any lord.

Jon's own thoughts about Val.

IMO a Mormont girl or Val would be great. I just hope Jon doesn't join Dany's list of suitors, that would be boring, and if R+L=J, we have already too much incest in the books.

If Jon wants to be Dany's type he better start getting his rape on and maybe (in 5 years) by the time she reaches westeros he'll be able to match Drogo and Daario.

[Ninotchka]

Melisandre, Dany, and Val will all be "Oh Jon, you can just marry all three of us now that the others are gone!" and Jon will put on his sunglasses (made of really thin dragonglass) and say "Sorry, babes. I am the shield that guards the realms of men," then skip back off to the Wall, arm-in-arm with Sam and Dolorous Edd.

And the three of them walk to the sunset dancing and singing "In the Navy" before it fades to black :lmao:

[howland_reed]

Melisandre, Dany, and Val will all be "Oh Jon, you can just marry all three of us now that the others are gone!" and Jon will put on his sunglasses (made of really thin dragonglass) and say "Sorry, babes. I am the shield that guards the realms of men," then skip back off to the Wall, arm-in-arm with Sam and Dolorous Edd.

If GRRM has Jon hook up with Mel, Dany, and Val, then he has officially gone Robert Jordan.

[It is not known]

I don't really have Val hate. She's an ambivalent character to me at best and her true role (in my opinion) is to show how wrong Stannis/Mel are when it comes to the Wildlings. She also seems to be someone else pushing the idea that women CAN have a role on the wall (one of the pioneers of Westorosi feminism, I suppose). As for the whole Jon+Val thing, eh. I'd guess she's more set up to be a temptation from him (and my guess would be that the Stark in him is going to be too stubborn to break his vows once again). I don't see any real chemistry between them and at least with Dany/Daarios you had to hear her inner monologue obsessing about him ALL THE TIME.

Like others I don't see Jon+Dany as a good fit BUT I think that's the point. They aren't soul mates but they'll have to get together eventually to save the realm. We see in Dany's story that there's a lot of tragedy surrounding marriages for love so maybe that's a lesson for her?

[Jeejee]

I don't really have Val hate. She's an ambivalent character to me at best and her true role (in my opinion) is to show how wrong Stannis/Mel are when it comes to the Wildlings. She also seems to be someone else pushing the idea that women CAN have a role on the wall (one of the pioneers of Westorosi feminism, I suppose). As for the whole Jon+Val thing, eh. I'd guess she's more set up to be a temptation from him (and my guess would be that the Stark in him is going to be too stubborn to break his vows once again). I don't see any real chemistry between them and at least with Dany/Daarios you had to hear her inner monologue obsessing about him ALL THE TIME.

I agree. Why can't a man and woman just be friends? Jon can note that she's beautiful without wanting to be with her. I think that'd be the most interesting path for GRRM to take - Jon and Val to just like each other as people without deciding to hook up.

[georgeforeman]

It sounds most of the folks in this thread read Val (and Jon's feelings towards her) a lot differently than I did. I never got the impression that she was a love interest for him. He never thought about her the way he did Yigrette. She was more of a person that he knew. He's nice to her and observes that she's attractive. That means he's going to fall in love with her? Weird. I know plenty of girls that are attractive and I'm nice to but I don't think I would date.

And a "badass"? Where does that come from? She's Mance's sister-in-law and evidently know Tomund well enough to guess where he'd be hanging out. Not like she's walking into an inferno to birth some dragons.

Given that we only see her through Jon's POV, I took the fact that she was so narrowly drawn and not fleshed out as a sign of how Jon thinks about her. She's a person he interacts with on a daily basis but not nearly as important to him as Yigrette was.

[jurble]

Alright how's this for conspiracy theory:

Melisandre sees:

Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing.

Now, we know that Melisandre sees skulls whenever she sees Jon Snow. I hereby propose that Jon Snow was breaking his vows with Val all along, and it just never came up in his PoV!

[RAAM]

love interest is different than being in love

and its not noting how attractive she looks, its how he comments that she and ghost look like they belong together when he sees her after she comes back with tormund, this(for me) set her up as a love interest, im not sau=ying theyre going to fall in love, but im kinda hoping for it

ans as for the badass part, she was able to get to tormund through a forest with an unknown amount of wights and possibly others around her, all this while on a half blind horse and no weapons, plus nine experienced armed rangers with good mounts failed in this same task, though i guess you could replace badass with capable, plus shes not an arrogant dumbass like dany

[howland_reed]

It sounds most of the folks in this thread read Val (and Jon's feelings towards her) a lot differently than I did. I never got the impression that she was a love interest for him. He never thought about her the way he did Yigrette. She was more of a person that he knew. He's nice to her and observes that she's attractive. That means he's going to fall in love with her? Weird. I know plenty of girls that are attractive and I'm nice to but I don't think I would date.

And a "badass"? Where does that come from? She's Mance's sister-in-law and evidently know Tomund well enough to guess where he'd be hanging out. Not like she's walking into an inferno to birth some dragons.

Given that we only see her through Jon's POV, I took the fact that she was so narrowly drawn and not fleshed out as a sign of how Jon thinks about her. She's a person he interacts with on a daily basis but not nearly as important to him as Yigrette was.

I don't think Jon is in love with Val (yet), but there's definitely several indications that GRRM is setting her up as a love interest for him or that he's falling for her. Don't forget that Jon didn't really think much of Ygritte either at first until she practically forced herself on him, and then he was in puppy-dog love.

1) The scene where Val returns with Ghost, and Jon's thought that they almost seem as if they belong together.

2) Val always being the first one in his thoughts when a) a "girl" (Alys Karstark) first arrives at the wall, and B) when Ser Patrek screams in Jon's final chapter.

3) "She'd make a worthy wife to any lord."

4) Four or five references by several characters, from Axell Florent to Justin Massey to Ser Patrek, of Val's beauty. One reference, not a big deal. Four or five? Gets to the point where it's pretty obvious that GRRM is setting her up for a relationship, especially since it's highly unlikely Val ends up with any of those suitors (one of them already being dead, and the other turning his attention to Asha).

[Gogossos]

The other characters' reaction to Val makes her interesting. Sometimes it's not always about interesting characters per se but about interesting situations they find themselves in, so that makes me interested in a potential Val/Jon hookup. Having said that, I want Dany and Jon to hook up (yeah, I said it!) more than I want L+R=J. Dany is far, far away and Jon in mortal danger, so I want to know how GRRM can hook them up. In comparison, I pretty much can guess how Jon/Val happens, even though the set up for it is probably stronger. It's the likely, yet simultaneously unlikely, Dany/Jon hook up that interests me more, the the idea that the journey is more intriguing than the eventual - seemingly cliche - destination. Does that make any sense?

[Olenna]

Gogosso, I agree that a Jon/Val hookup wouldn't be all that interesting, and I find Val a dull character. But I think it's likely to happen because of all the subtle parallels between Jon and Dany. Those parallels, I think, extend to their love lives (note that I didn't say sex lives, cause Dany's gonna rack up more sex partners than Jon for sure). So far, both of their first loves were basically forced on them by circumstances in new and unfamiliar cultures. Dany's second love has been the person who's convenient and attractive and, you know, there, and I think Val occupies that position for Jon. Particularly now that his leadership of the Night's Watch is done for, he might very well rejoin the wildlings. If he couldn't resist average-looking, abrasive Ygritte, he's sure not gonna be able to risk hot-nice-fantasy-woman Val.

So the way I see Dany and Jon's love lives playing out is that they'll each have 3 big loves:

1. The older, more knowledgeable/skilled person forced on them by circumstances. (Drogo and Ygritte)

2. The person who's convenient, super-hot, romance-novel generic, and not as central a character. (Daario and Val)

3. A complex, central character who is their--trite alert--soulmate. (Each other--maybe, though I'm not so sure. If Dany becomes the main antagonist of the story, her soulmate will be Euron and Jon's will be Sansa.)

[Gogossos]

Jon and Sansa, let me process that a bit :wub: But seriously I don't see it happening. Dany and Euron/Victarion I can see some sex happening (they've got ships and who knows how that hone will work) but I don't see soulmate written on it. If Dany has a soulmate (damn, I can't avoid that term) it's probably either Drogo or Jon. Drogo because it has happened and Jon because of all the parallels being drawn. I don't see how they can meet and fall in love within two books though. They could be like Cat and Ned, falling in love over a 15 year period or they could be fire and ice - all consuming passion and if so would that convince us they're "soulmates"? Val has a chance of being regarded as Jon's soulmate, no?

[Olenna]

Jon and Sansa, let me process that a bit :wub: But seriously I don't see it happening. Dany and Euron/Victarion I can see some sex happening (they've got ships and who knows how that hone will work) but I don't see soulmate written on it. If Dany has a soulmate (damn, I can't avoid that term) it's probably either Drogo or Jon. Drogo because it has happened and Jon because of all the parallels being drawn. I don't see how they can meet and fall in love within two books though. They could be like Cat and Ned, falling in love over a 15 year period or they could be fire and ice - all consuming passion and if so would that convince us they're "soulmates"? Val has a chance of being regarded as Jon's soulmate, no?

People define soulmate differently. I define a soulmate as the person who is the most compelling to you sexually and personally over the course of your life, and who reveals your true self to you--whether you know them for 50 years or 50 days and regardless of whether you ever consummate the relationship.

I never got the feeling that Drogo was Dany's soulmate. She came to care for him over time, but she doesn't spend a lot of time obsessing over him once he's dead.

Could Val be Jon's soulmate? Conceivably, but she's such a minor character--if anything, Ygritte is a stronger candidate because he thinks about her all the time even though he's hanging out with this much more conventionally attractive and genial girl. I think he'll hook up with Val just because it's cold and lonely up there in the north. But I strongly suspect that his soul mate will wind up being another POV character, like Dany.

I'm gonna revise my earlier statement about Sansa being a possible soulmate, but I think they could have a long and happy marriage, if he isn't a wight-adjacent being. (I know I'm in the minority there, but seriously, he's exactly what she wants at this point, and I think he would dig her quiet melancholy. They're temperamentally similar. Plus, would be less incestuous than Jon/Dany if R+L=J.)

[Gogossos]

Sansa's hand in marriage is probably more valuable politically, too valuable methinks. Jon and Dany, I can see them bonding over dragon riding. Rhaegal will reject every potential rider but take a liking to Jon. I can see the two of them in the clouds on Rheagal and Drogon, laughing and having fun before the real fighting begins. Dany, being able to share this feeling with another human being, gets emotional and they hook up. I don't see a mile high club though :laugh:

[howland_reed]

People define soulmate differently. I define a soulmate as the person who is the most compelling to you sexually and personally over the course of your life, and who reveals your true self to you--whether you know them for 50 years or 50 days and regardless of whether you ever consummate the relationship.

I never got the feeling that Drogo was Dany's soulmate. She came to care for him over time, but she doesn't spend a lot of time obsessing over him once he's dead.

Could Val be Jon's soulmate? Conceivably, but she's such a minor character--if anything, Ygritte is a stronger candidate because he thinks about her all the time even though he's hanging out with this much more conventionally attractive and genial girl. I think he'll hook up with Val just because it's cold and lonely up there in the north. But I strongly suspect that his soul mate will wind up being another POV character, like Dany.

I'm gonna revise my earlier statement about Sansa being a possible soulmate, but I think they could have a long and happy marriage, if he isn't a wight-adjacent being. (I know I'm in the minority there, but seriously, he's exactly what she wants at this point, and I think he would dig her quiet melancholy. They're temperamentally similar. Plus, would be less incestuous than Jon/Dany if R+L=J.)

This thread is now going to devolve into what forms of incest are more acceptable/less gross: Half-siblings, aunt/nephew, or first cousins. In all honesty, even if you find Sansa/Jon (if they're cousins, not siblings) less incestuous than Jon/Dany, I still find it more disgusting considering Sansa/Jon grew up together (as siblings), while at least with Jon/Dany, it's more of an Oedipus/Jerry Springer storyline.

[Été]

This thread is now going to devolve into what forms of incest are more acceptable/less gross: Half-siblings, aunt/nephew, or first cousins. In all honesty, even if you find Sansa/Jon (if they're cousins, not siblings) less incestuous than Jon/Dany, I still find it more disgusting considering Sansa/Jon grew up together (as siblings), while at least with Jon/Dany, it's more of an Oedipus/Jerry Springer storyline.

It's also worth noting that wards often aspire to marry into their host family, e.g. Theon/Sansa, Petyr/Catelyn, Samwell/Redwynes. Shouldn't that have a similar growing-up-together 'ick' factor? However, there seems to be a distinction made between the trueborn children and any other kids who happen to be around. Jon and Theon both felt a strong fraternal bond to Robb, but they also clearly knew they were outsiders, ultimately subordinate to him.

People married their cousins all the damn time in real-life medieval nobility. Charles V was a first cousin of Isabella of Portugal. Edward III married a second cousin from the Low Countries, and his first cousin married one of his sons (another Edward). Eleanor of Aquitaine had her marriage to Louis VII annulled because he was her third cousin - then immediately married Henry Plantagenet, another third cousin (and Louis' too). Not so much a family tree as a net of some description.

[variance]

Sansa's hand in marriage is probably more valuable politically, too valuable methinks. Jon and Dany, I can see them bonding over dragon riding. Rhaegal will reject every potential rider but take a liking to Jon. I can see the two of them in the clouds on Rheagal and Drogon, laughing and having fun before the real fighting begins. Dany, being able to share this feeling with another human being, gets emotional and they hook up. I don't see a mile high club though :laugh:

If he hooks up with Dany, he will probably get an STD.

[Auska]

Val -> Wall. Wall -> Wylla. Coincidence? I THINK NOT.

[Été]

If he hooks up with Dany, he will probably get an STD.

I would have SO MUCH respect for GRRM if the main heroine was laid up with some venereal pox caught from a dashing sellsword and missed the grand finale.

Try dragonriding with primary genital herpes, yeeeeouch...

[Lady of Casterly Rock]

I would have SO MUCH respect for GRRM if the main heroine was laid up with some venereal pox caught from a dashing sellsword and missed the grand finale.

Try dragonriding with primary genital herpes, yeeeeouch...

Very impossible. But the best theory about Danys end of the story I ever read. :thumbsup: