[ADWD Spoilers] Val

[Silverin]

As it stands now, Jon is still Ned's bastard. I'd hate for Jon to marry "any" Lady because it would make Jon feel inferior, like he has felt his entire life ( thank you very much Caitlyn) . Even if Robb's parchment is found and Jon is the legal heir of Winterfell, I could imagine him feeling "looked down upon" if he wedded a highborn lass.

If he did marry a lady though, Wylla would be my first choice! I know Meera is 7(6?) years older than Bran but I sure would love to see those two kids end up together.

Yeah I agree. The only southorn lady I could see him marry is Jeyne Westerling, but I think that would be entirely out of duty (if she was switched and has a baby, then in order to raise Robb's kid).

But I can see some northen ones, like as you said a Mormont, Meera, Wylla or....I know she is not northen but Asha. But I am not sure he would like to be a pirate, though for some reason I think it could work out so well.

As for wildlings goes Val.

[Silmarien]

yeah, whats up with that?shes like 14, since this is medieval society i can understand her sleeping with men at her age, but shes more sexually active than the red viper

and as for val, maybe she actually saves jons life in a way that she has to kill someone, maybe a knight or a wight, that would be pretty badass

Ugh. You're actually saying that Dany (who is at least 15, possibly 16 by ADWD) was MORE sexually active than Oberyn Martell, who fathered like 7 or 8 bastards? Dany has had sex with ONE man who hasn't been her husband - Daario - and her other two partners were husbands Drogo, and Hizdar (ONCE, at the consummation of their marriage). Sexism is just dripping from that statement.

[LadyMary]

True, but those analogies aren't quite the same thing. Val is Dalla's sister, not Mance's sister. Jeyne Westerlng's siblings didn't gain the title "Prince/Princess of the North" when Jeyne married Robb. Garlan and Willas Tyrell weren't called "Prince" when their sister married the King. Elia's brothers were Princes of Dorne because that's the title used for the rulers of Dorne instead of "Lord"---Doran and Oberyn weren't considered Princes of the Seven Kingdoms through Elia's marriage to Rhaegar.

Well, then I don't have an answer. King Stannis and Queen Selyse and their various retainers refer to Val as a Princess, because her sister was a Queen married to the King beyond the Wall. The fact that such titles mean nothing to the Free Folk seems to be irrelevant to the stubborn Southroners and Jon and Val eventually give up on trying to school them on it.

I can't see Jon ever going for a Southern lady. Someone like Margarey likes to ride and hunt, but when push comes to shove she isn't grabbing a sword and attacking anyone. Jon thinks to himself that part of Val's appeal is that she is

Oh I don't think Jon would ever go for a Southron lady either (except maybe Dany for reasons that have to do with a call of blood between them). I'm just sayin'. Maergery isn't a passive girlie girl like Sansa or Jeyne Westerling.

I don't think Jon's only attracted to warrior women, just women who are intelligent, self-reliant, free-spirited and brave. Even though Val could geld a man if he tried to rape her doesn't mean she's a spearwife. She spends most of her time at camp doing traditionally "womanly" things, like helping her pregnant sister, then caring for her nephew and "Monster" after their mothers are gone. The most badass thing thing she did was and act of diplomacy and stealth; she makes her way through the haunted forest alone and persuaded Tormund Giantsbane to buy into the peace plan and come back with her to the Wall. I can see why Jon is smitten - not just because she's beautiful.

Personally, I see him hooking up with Alysanne Mormont. She's a warrior. She has two kids whose father(s) might not be around ("stepfather" is a role Jon would excel at). Plus, the fact that Jeor Mormont considered him a son and Jon now has House Mormont's ancestral blade could foreshadow Jon marrying one of the Mormont girls.

Ah the She Bear! I think she'd be a good match too in theory, assuming she's actually a widow, although I wonder if her little sister Lyanna might not be more likely bride when she comes of age. Isn't Alysanne quite a bit older in addition to having children?

[BrosBeforeSnows]

I think she'll end up marrying Stannis after Selyse is killed. Stannis will survive the encounter with the Boltons and return to Castle Black. Selyse will end up dying somehow (perhaps Melisandre will sacrifice her life for Jon's?... Or maybe she'll fanatically sacrifice her own life for Stannis?... Or she could always die accidentally, or get murdered, etc..), and Stannis will take Val, who he believes to be a princess, for his new queen. Of course, Val will hate him, but she will be powerless to escape or do anything about it because of the Others to the north, and the Boltons to the south. However, she will ultimately kill Shireen, once she's forced to be around her all the time.

And Jon will fall in love with Melisandre after she resurrects him. If you recall, Beric Dondarrion became an avid follower of R'hllor after he was resurrected by Thoros. There's probably something to that, and Jon will fanatically embrace the Lord of Light once he's revived. Stannis will probably be jealous of him, and may even want to execute him as an oath breaker if he thinks they're screwing. Mel will probably convince herself she was wrong about Stannis and Jon is AA, and she'll see that Stannis intends to kill Jon in her fires. She'll then act preemptively and kill him before he can get to Jon, and will ultimately be responsible for murdering the two people who originally followed her and made her career, so to speak (i.e. Stannis & Selyse). Jon will probably then allow Val to choose a husband according to wildling custom, and someone like Ramsay will end up kidnapping her.

[Nightstar]

As far as Jon not going for a southron lady, well, how many does he know?

The girls he's met recently are northern, except for Queen Selyse (who doesn't appeal to anyone) and Melisandre (whom Jon distrusts).

I'm not saying he would choose a southron lady, but I would like to see what would happen if he is put into a situation where he actually gets to know one quite well.

[tze]

As far as Jon not going for a southron lady, well, how many does he know?

The girls he's met recently are northern, except for Queen Selyse (who doesn't appeal to anyone) and Melisandre (whom Jon distrusts).

I'm not saying he would choose a southron lady, but I would like to see what would happen if he is put into a situation where he actually gets to know one quite well.

Well, Jon has deep-seated issues with Catelyn Stark. And Cat was a proper southern lady (that's why Arya kept getting into trouble---she wouldn't act like her mother wanted her to act). I think that, even if Jon met a nice southern lady, part of him would always subconsciously be yelling "Catelyn! Catelyn! Danger! Danger!" and he'd instinctively want to run in the opposite direction.

[BrosBeforeSnows]

Well, Jon has deep-seated issues with Catelyn Stark. And Cat was a proper southern lady (that's why Arya kept getting into trouble---she wouldn't act like her mother wanted her to act). I think that, even if Jon met a nice southern lady, part of him would always subconsciously be yelling "Catelyn! Catelyn! Danger! Danger!" and he'd instinctively want to run in the opposite direction.

I agree. He definitely has "mommy issues"... or whatever you'd call it in his case.

[RAAM]

Ugh. You're actually saying that Dany (who is at least 15, possibly 16 by ADWD) was MORE sexually active than Oberyn Martell, who fathered like 7 or 8 bastards? Dany has had sex with ONE man who hasn't been her husband - Daario - and her other two partners were husbands Drogo, and Hizdar (ONCE, at the consummation of their marriage). Sexism is just dripping from that statement.

she also had sex with her maid , and its called hyperbole. look it up instead of flinging accusations that are based on me thinking that a 15 year old shouldnt be having crazy sex with a mercenary(it says in ADWD he had her in every way a man can have a woman, in one night)

i live with three feminist and was raised in social views by said feminist, i went to a damn event for feminism, so dont call me a sexist because i dont think a 15 year old in a book shouldnt be having wild sex

[Silmarien]

Yeah, I have to say, Daenerys was truly distasteful in this novel. And she's so shallow. I mean, Daario, really? And wasn't there a point where it was basically acknowledged that had Quentyn looked differently, Daenerys would have taken his offer more seriously? And I'm not even going to touch on her personality which is just . . . I don't even know how to describe it really.

She's arrogant, she thinks she's half a god because she's blood of the dragon and mother of dragons and all that nonsense. She's temperamental and finicky, making huge decisions on the spurt of the moment, or based on the silliest of reasons. She lets her emotions completely rule her. And she's not really that funny either -- I'd rather have dinner with Cersei than her, at least the former is pretty witty. In other words, if you take away her looks and power, Daenerys is really not much of a catch at all.

I think she makes a great character but a great mate? Hardly. I'm trying to picture her with Jon and I just come up blank. Jon is so cool and collected, and keeps all his emotions bottled up inside, whereas Daenerys is basically the opposite. Look at things now, Jon chafes at the pretensions of Selyse, can you imagine what he would think of woman who takes herself as some kind of messiah?

And even worse, GRRM is spending so much time getting Daenerys out of Meereen that I doubt Jon and Daenerys will have much onscreen time together. I don't know how he plans on pulling this romance off and making it seem realistic. Perhaps he'll surprise me and have them marry but have Jon do it only for duty, never warming up to her.

I don't know, Jon is such a creature of the North that it seems more plausible that he would have a Northern wife, like Val or at least someone more rough around the edges, with less pretension, like Asha. Daenerys would be like an alien to him.

Sorry if someone else already mentioned this, but whoa on the Dany hate. She does NOT see herself as some sort of messiah - she wants to go to Westeros to reclaim her family's throne, and she's the last of her line (as far as she knows).

[Silmarien]

I don't know if it's been mentioned before (Google offers nothing on the subject and I don't see anything relevant in any errata lists) but between the time Val leaves Castle Black and the time she returns her eyes apparently change color from grey to blue. In ASoS and during Rattleshirt's execution in ADWD her eyes are grey, but when we see her after she has retrieved Tormund her eyes are blue. Is meant to be a common occurrence for people of that eye color, a trick of light/perception, an error by the author, or a hint towards something else?

Maybe her eyes are hazel? Gray and blue can look pretty similar, and it also depends on the lighting.

[ARYa_Nym]

GRRM probably just didn't remember. Rhaegar's eyes are described as dark indigo in the House of Undying but deep purple in ADWD, for example.

[Boy and Girl Wadish]

If Jon wants to be Dany's type he better start getting his rape on and maybe (in 5 years) by the time she reaches westeros he'll be able to match Drogo and Daario.

But you know, what if Dany's changes taste? Jon is pretty much the opposite of the guys she like and maybe she'll see him for who he really is and realize that oh wow, I'm so tired of men like Daario and Drogo and all that bad boy image, I think I want a different one. OH WELL. Just saying.

[Queen Cersei I]

I've gotta say (and I don't mean to step on anyone's toes here)-- I couldn't fucking stand Val. Not as in "I didn't like her, she was mean, rude, somehow off putting." I just thought she was the lamest, most obvious, most cliched minor character quite possibly ever.

She practically had "minor, penultimate love interest" written on her bloody forehead. She's goregeous! She's young! She's (since this is the 21rst century, and lord knows we must be PC) a feisty, lethal warrior (despite being average height, and weighing about 105 pounds. :rolleyes: Oh yes, she's beautiful, brilliant, "a strong woman," has a fantastic body and great boobs,er, ahem, a wonderful personality and a good mind, and-- oh surprise, surprise-- she just happens to be totally up for a little romance with Our Hero! (Despite the fact that she has very little reason to be interested in him, for romance or any other relationship.)

But because she's such a saucy little thing, she will disguise her love, and exchange in a little sassy, sexy sparring with our hero. It's like a lamer, more cliched version of pride and prejudice! Oh, gee, I sure do hope these two kids can get together and make it work, or, at least, for 2-3 chapters in the next book, after which Val will undoubtedly die/ dissapear/ be dropped for the flimsiest of reasons, because it's time for Our Heroine to take the stage.

Seriously, I've heard a lot of complaints against Ygritte, and know that many found her annoying. Reading the Val/ Jon encounters in ADWD, however, I couldn't help but wish for Ygritte and her stupid, repetitive one-liner to come back from the dead. Val seems like basically a fantasy dream girl, made "modern" only because she happens to be physically strong/ badass. (A warrior princess, as Jon dubs her. Never mind the fact that GRRM has said in the past that Val is not supposed to be a warrior. But if she's not, then how the hell did she manage to murder her guards? I guess she's just pretty all around special.)

Meh. As reluctant as I am for Jon and Mel to become lovers in the next book (and that does, at this point, seem to be in the direction the two are headed), I'd take the Red woman over Val any day. Actually, if we never saw Val again, it would be A-okay with me.

Hey, I heard the Darkstar's still single... so.... :leaving:

[Eilidh Blair]

I think Val is the daughter of Mors Crowfood Umber, uncle to GreatJon Umber. Mors' baby was stolen by wildlings as a baby thirty years ago, Jon tells Stannis in a DWD. Mors' 2 sons died on the Trident so no heir. The Smalljon was murdered at the Red Wedding so no heir. Val & Dalla do not look alike and wildling families are loose compared to kneelers' families. So Dalla's mum and dad would probably not bother too much that Val had been stolen as a baby and just call them sisters. Val is very tall and blonde as are all Umbers. If she is Mors daughter then she is the rightful heir to all Umber lands and the true Lady Umber.

What does anyone think?

[Free Northman]

I can't believe so many people are up in arms about a minor side character who has had less screen time than Strong Belwas or Little Walder Frey.

Love interest for Jon? Really? I never even noticed her much up to now. But I can think of plenty worse options for Jon than this rather withdrawn, self contained girl.

Certainly she would be a much better choice than...well...Jon's own AUNT.

Have you people become completely ok with incest since the Cersei/Jaime thing?

If Jon has ANY romantic notions toward Daenerys I will stop reading the series. It is one thing for villains to engage in incest, but something else entirely if the good guy does so.

And yes, Jon IS the good guy, and Jaime IS one of the bad guys, for all you grey character-there's no good or evil-everything is a matter of perspective-loonies.

[Buried Treasure]

I think Val is the daughter of Mors Crowfood Umber, uncle to GreatJon Umber. Mors' baby was stolen by wildlings as a baby thirty years ago, Jon tells Stannis in a DWD. Mors' 2 sons died on the Trident so no heir. The Smalljon was murdered at the Red Wedding so no heir. Val & Dalla do not look alike and wildling families are loose compared to kneelers' families. So Dalla's mum and dad would probably not bother too much that Val had been stolen as a baby and just call them sisters. Val is very tall and blonde as are all Umbers. If she is Mors daughter then she is the rightful heir to all Umber lands and the true Lady Umber.

What does anyone think?

I thought it was said that Mors' daughter was stolen by wildlings. It makes more sense to believe that a wildling would steal a young women to marry than a babe which would like as not die anyway. I've seen it speculated that it was Tormund that stole the daughter, which is a theory I subcribe too. Reread Jon's chapters with that in mind and there seem to be plenty of hints: "Tormund Giantsbane", his son Tall Toregg.

I can't believe so many people are up in arms about a minor side character who has had less screen time than Strong Belwas or Little Walder Frey.

Love interest for Jon? Really? I never even noticed her much up to now. But I can think of plenty worse options for Jon than this rather withdrawn, self contained girl.

And yes, Jon IS the good guy, and Jaime IS one of the bad guys, for all you grey character-there's no good or evil-everything is a matter of perspective-loonies.

At least Val is an actual character, I can't believe that an unnamed character that gets less than a third of a page gets so much attention over in the 'Hooded Man of Winterfell' thread.

As for Val being a love interest for Jon, she was offered as a potential bride for him, so it is at least valid to consider whether they would have made a suitable match. I don't believe as some seem to that Jon is 'in love' with her, but he thinks her comely and they get on well enough. Successful marriages have been made out of less than that and so I think in a 'what-if' scenario they might have worked out.

Plot-wise Val is pretty minor league, but she is a supporting character rather than a background character. You could swap which black brother is guarding Jon's door in a given scene and it wouldn't make much difference, but Val is the only 'wildling princess' and so attention is paid to her. If there is going to be tension between Selyse's lot and the wildlings in the next book she could be even more important as she is one of the few wildlings percieved to have rank (and therefore be worth listening too).

[Free Northman]

I thought it was said that Mors' daughter was stolen by wildlings. It makes more sense to believe that a wildling would steal a young women to marry than a babe which would like as not die anyway. I've seen it speculated that it was Tormund that stole the daughter, which is a theory I subcribe too. Reread Jon's chapters with that in mind and there seem to be plenty of hints: "Tormund Giantsbane", his son Tall Toregg.

At least Val is an actual character, I can't believe that an unnamed character that gets less than a third of a page gets so much attention over in the 'Hooded Man of Winterfell' thread.

As for Val being a love interest for Jon, she was offered as a potential bride for him, so it is at least valid to consider whether they would have made a suitable match. I don't believe as some seem to that Jon is 'in love' with her, but he thinks her comely and they get on well enough. Successful marriages have been made out of less than that and so I think in a 'what-if' scenario they might have worked out.

Plot-wise Val is pretty minor league, but she is a supporting character rather than a background character. You could swap which black brother is guarding Jon's door in a given scene and it wouldn't make much difference, but Val is the only 'wildling princess' and so attention is paid to her. If there is going to be tension between Selyse's lot and the wildlings in the next book she could be even more important as she is one of the few wildlings percieved to have rank (and therefore be worth listening too).

Ja, I would actually like it if she became more prominent, as she's a very likeable character in my view. A woman who is self confident, but not bitchy. They are few and far between in Westeros.

[hotweaselsoup]

I think the parallels between Jon and Dany are pretty clear, and if Ygritte and Drogo play similar roles in Jon and Dany's lives, respectively, then it would make sense that Val is Jon's "Daario".

I see Dany's relationship with Daario as more than just a sexual obsession. To me, Daario represents freedom to Danaerys: when she is with him, she can pretend - if only for a while - that she has no responsibilities. She is not a queen when she is with him. She's just a girl with her bad boy, lawless lover - not the savior who has promised to free the slaves and rule Meereen wisely and justly. Dany takes this VOW that she has made very seriously, but she struggles with it as much as Jon struggles with his vow. At the end of the day, it's burdensome to be a queen (or a Lord Commander), especially if you're only fifteen. Can anyone blame her for being tempted by Daario, who allows her to forget, however briefly, that she has the hopes of an entire people riding on her shoulders?

Val, to me, occupies a similar role in Jon's life. Any sexual attraction he may feel for her is secondary to the fact that she represents freedom to him. She is the prize that comes along with Winterfell, should he forswear himself and give up his role as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Like Danaerys with Daario, he wants what Val means, rather than what she is.

Okay, that being said, here's the rub: I think Daario is going to betray Danaerys - for all we know, he has been a Yunkai plant from the beginning. This is probably not much of a stretch; he is a sellsword, after all, and betrayal is a sellsword's bread and butter. But I also think Val is going to betray Jon, if the parallel holds true. I actually think she is already playing him false - I'm quite convinced there is some sort of wildling double-cross at work at the Wall - and all her flirty, little smiles are hiding something. Val, Mance, Tormund have all lost people dear to them because of Jon, and Mance has spent years - YEARS - of toil and blood amassing his wildlings only to be stopped in his tracks by a snot-nosed teenager who wormed his way into his camp and then stabbed him in the back. So suddenly these wildling folk are arm-in-arm with the Boy Commander, and singing kumbayah around the campfire? No, I'm not buying it. Val, Leathers, Mance, Tormund - they're up to something.

Val is Jon's Daario, and she will turn on him (if she hasn't already).

[Dementia]

I like Val as an Umber. That would be cool.

No, no, no, no, no to her and Jon. Jon doesn't get the girl. Ever. Any girl. No Val. No Dany. No Sansa. No Mormont or Karstark or Tyrell or Baratheon or crazy red witch. Jon gets the cold and the snow and Ghost and Sam and Pip and Grenn and Dolorus Edd.

It is known.

[The Sleeper]

Val has been a pretty minor character so far, but I think she is going to get more sreen time since she is one of the few named wildlings on-screen.

I never got love interest for Jon, though.

From her perspective she is in situation like Sansa's except she is older and tougher. Her side suffered a crushing defeat, her family is dead and her captors are treating her like a prize. I think she entertained thoughts about killing Jon (traitor and all) and that was why she asked him about Jarl's death. I think she goes along with him because she realizes she has bigger problems at the moment and because he is possibly the only one among her captors that she can actually communicate with. That's a long way off from actually enetertaining romantic feelings about him though.

Also if she was fat and ugly the southrons wouldn't view her as a princess and the role she plays in the narrative is to show the absurd situation that arises from the different perspectives of the free folk and the southrons. And I don't remeber reading anywhere that she is actually a warrior. Just that she is prepared to defend herself much like any wildling woman needs to be.