[ADWD Spoilers] Val

[Theo1]

Val is a strong character. What does the limited data tell us about her? She is more competent than three sets of night watch rangers, and convinces all those badas wildlings to trust the NW. So, she is persuasive too. She's hot, and what the F is wrong with that ugly fantasy haters. I would hit that. She has knowledge - I'm not convinced her reaction to greyscale was susperstcion only. She is politically savvy, she will be submit in performance to that dumb ass bribe of stannous, but knows that chick doesn't deserve real respect. She is capable of cutting an unworthy mans balls off, which although I am troubled by such a thought, I respect the will to do such. So, lighten up folks and consider what little parts of yourself she makes uncomfortable (therapy may be a useful investment for you). I am out!

[ceeLAH REX]

Maybe Jon's gotta make a decision in the future between dany and val .. (A betrayal for love) .. I can just see dany showing up at the wall and jon and val are already secretly in love but Jon thinks he has to Be with dany because of the AA/pwwp prophecy .. My little crackpot theory

[Eggplant Wizard]

Honestly, she's such a minor character in the books I don't know what to expect or not expect from her.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

She will probably get killed :( , as will Daario, since they are second love interests of Jon and Dany and willi have to go the way of Ygritte and Drogo, before Jon and Dany can fall in love with each other.

[Tyrionthebest]

She will probably get killed :( , as will Daario, since they are second love interests of Jon and Dany and willi have to go the way of Ygritte and Drogo, before Jon and Dany can fall in love with each other.

If that happens i swear i would throw the books in the garbage or set them on fire because i wasted my time reading this series .

[Nightstar]

Honestly, she's such a minor character in the books I don't know what to expect or not expect from her.

Agreed; I'm not too interested in Val, except how she affects Jon.

(I think she might have something to do with saving his life in the next book; otherwise, I don't care about her and hope Jon doesn't fall in love with her.

I don't believe he will; she is too much like Ygritte and he needs a different type now).

[SerArthurHeath]

Agreed; I'm not too interested in Val, except how she affects Jon.

(I think she might have something to do with saving his life in the next book; otherwise, I don't care about her and hope Jon doesn't fall in love with her.

I don't believe he will; she is too much like Ygritte and he needs a different type now).

Really, aside from being a Wilding? Val seems intelligent, open to rational discussion, not openly and aggressively violent, respectful of Jon and pretty much shares no character traits at all with Ygritte except not being a pushover. On which basis there are LOADS of female characters way to similar to Ygritte for Jon to get with (it's probably a "cliche" in so far as that "word" means anything at all) including, in fact, Dany

[LadyMary]

Yeah...put me in the camp that thinks Val is a boring, generic fantasy hot chick who never gets fleshed out, and that Jon/Val would only be marginally less cheesy than Jon/Dany, which is SO CHEESY. I would flat out stop reading this series if Jon and Dany hooked up and became a pair of dragon-riding lovers. Not only is it obnoxiously cliche, but they are such different people. I can see Dany taking a liking to Jon, but I cannot see Jon liking Dany. Like another poster said, he seems to prefer girls who are more down-to-earth, less pretentious, and not conventionally feminine. Northern girls, in other words, because Jon is as northman as they come. Ygritte and Val are actually better for him (much as I hate to say that about Val), and in fact Alys Karstark would have been ideal for either Jon or Robb. I feel rather sad that she didn't manage to charm them when they were all 6 years old. :frown5:

Personally though, I would greatly prefer it if Jon never hooks up with anyone again. He's the lone wolf and will be the lone wolf till he dies, and his duty is to the Wall even if his brothers have rejected him. Also, Jon resembles Ned Stark's character very strongly (even if he's Lyanna's son), and Ned only dishonored himself once as far as we know. I think Jon's done with that as well.

"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives." - Ned Stark

Ned "dishonored" himself at least once, to confessing to treason, in order to save Sansa's life. Ned seemed to have dishonored himself by claiming to have fathered a bastard, even though he probably didn't, (if Jon is Lyanna's son), in order to save his nephew's life. Ned's family is more important to him than his honor. In that, I think Jon does take after Ned. It's those Stark values that he was raised with.

Jon's not a lone wolf at all. He was tempted to break his oath to stay with Ygritte. He secretly helped Stannis because he wanted the King to liberate Winterfell and he wanted to save Arya, and was willing to plot with some wildlings and declare his intention to break his vows in order to go after Ramsay. I think it would suck if the reward for Jon's progression as a character is that he got to this point, killed and resurrected only to remain a lone wolf fighting the Others and wights even outcast by those black brothers who betrayed him.

That doesn't necessarily mean he's going to have a torrid romance with either Val or Dany, but I do think there's more to his future than just being stuck at the wall fighting a lonely battle after all that.

As for Val, I hope she will be one of the people who keeps Jon and Ghost safe from whatever mayhem happens next. I expect some of the Queen's men will try to attack her, or even some of the black brothers. She'll probably kill or maim a few who try and run off, hopefully with Ghost to regroup with Jon's other wildling allies.

[Brucolac]

I know wildlings don't care about birth, so I can maybe see why she can gather support from them even though she is just the sister of the person Mance was married to, but I have no idea why any lord south of the wall would be trying to marry her. She and her sister were just two of Ned Stark's peasants two years ago, Mance said he found them on his way back from spying out Robert when he was at Winterfall. Any paragraphs about her and strategic alliances I find to be ridiculous.

[tze]

I know wildlings don't care about birth, so I can maybe see why she can gather support from them even though she is just the sister of the person Mance was married to, but I have no idea why any lord south of the wall would be trying to marry her. She and her sister were just two of Ned Stark's peasants two years ago, Mance said he found them on his way back from spying out Robert when he was at Winterfall. Any paragraphs about her and strategic alliances I find to be ridiculous.

In ASOS, Mance tells Jon of Dalla, "I met her on my return from your father's castle." I suppose it's possible that Val and Dalla were peasant girls in the North, but they seem very in tune with wildling culture and ways for having only lived with the wildlings for a short time. Plus, Val seems to know the Haunted Forest pretty darn well since she was able to find Tormund's camp (the feast for Robert Baratheon wasn't a very long time before Jon meets Mance---maybe a couple of years at the most?---so I don't know how she could have gained such a knowledge in such a short amount of time). I always read Mance's statement as him saying he met Dalla on his way back to his camp from the feast, after he'd crossed back over the Wall. I guess it's possible they were peasant girls, I'm just not sure how likely that is. If so, they went native pretty darn quickly.

My real problem with Stannis's/Selyse's belief that Val is a princess is because, even if Dalla was considered a queen, I don't think her sister wouldn't be considered a princess even in Westerosi culture. In European royal families, if the king somehow marries a commoner, her sister doesn't get the title of princess. If Joffrey had married Sansa, Arya wouldn't have been called Princess. When Margaery married Joffrey, then Tommen, her brothers didn't gain the title of Prince.

Is this because, to people like Stannis and Selyse, a king marrying someone not of royal/noble blood is anathema, so they just assume Val had to be a princess for her sister to marry a King?>

[Jem]

My real problem with Stannis's/Selyse's belief that Val is a princess is because, even if Dalla was considered a queen, I don't think her sister wouldn't be considered a princess even in Westerosi culture. In European royal families, if the king somehow marries a commoner, her sister doesn't get the title of princess. If Joffrey had married Sansa, Arya wouldn't have been called Princess. When Margaery married Joffrey, then Tommen, her brothers didn't gain the title of Prince.

I know, Pippa Middleton didn't become a princess when her sister married Prince William.

Val = The Pippa Middleton of Westeros?

She's the hot, young, eligible sister to the bride of the monarch (or the heir to the monarchy in Pippa's case - but close enough!).

[Nightstar]

Jon's not a lone wolf at all. He was tempted to break his oath to stay with Ygritte. He secretly helped Stannis because he wanted the King to liberate Winterfell and he wanted to save Arya, and was willing to plot with some wildlings and declare his intention to break his vows in order to go after Ramsay. I think it would suck if the reward for Jon's progression as a character is that he got to this point, killed and resurrected only to remain a lone wolf fighting the Others and wights even outcast by those black brothers who betrayed him.

That doesn't necessarily mean he's going to have a torrid romance with either Val or Dany, but I do think there's more to his future than just being stuck at the wall fighting a lonely battle after all that.

Right; I don't want Jon to end up alone either.

I hope he does acquire a kingdom, or at least a lordship, and the wife to go with it!

(I just don't want it to be Val).

To be honest, I would enjoy seeing Jon matched with a girl totally unlike the ones he knows (Like Val, Ygritte, Arya). They are all feisty, plain-spoken, tomboyish, ready to fight.

The antithesis of that? Margaery Tyrell! Or Sansa, Myrcella, Jeyne Westerling. Castle-raised, all silks and satins and manipulation. It would be fun!

(Personally I would like to see Jon end up with Meera Reed or Wylla Manderly, but it would be far more interesting if he should end up with a Southron lady).

[Tyrionthebest]

Right; I don't want Jon to end up alone either.

I hope he does acquire a kingdom, or at least a lordship, and the wife to go with it!

(I just don't want it to be Val).

To be honest, I would enjoy seeing Jon matched with a girl totally unlike the ones he knows (Like Val, Ygritte, Arya). They are all feisty, plain-spoken, tomboyish, ready to fight.

The antithesis of that? Margaery Tyrell! Or Sansa, Myrcella, Jeyne Westerling. Castle-raised, all silks and satins and manipulation. It would be fun!

(Personally I would like to see Jon end up with Meera Reed or Wylla Manderly, but it would be far more interesting if he should end up with a Southron lady).

That would be out of character for him . Jon only likes strong women not damsels in distress .

[sara_stk]

he doesn't need anyone...

He has Ghost.... ghost is his soulmate.

That's all.

[Nightstar]

That would be out of character for him . Jon only likes strong women not damsels in distress .

Oh, I don't know; how much in distress are they?

It seems like, when the chips are down, they don't do badly in looking after themselves (or at least finding a man who will).

[LadyMary]

In ASOS, Mance tells Jon of Dalla, "I met her on my return from your father's castle." I suppose it's possible that Val and Dalla were peasant girls in the North, but they seem very in tune with wildling culture and ways for having only lived with the wildlings for a short time. Plus, Val seems to know the Haunted Forest pretty darn well since she was able to find Tormund's camp (the feast for Robert Baratheon wasn't a very long time before Jon meets Mance---maybe a couple of years at the most?---so I don't know how she could have gained such a knowledge in such a short amount of time). I always read Mance's statement as him saying he met Dalla on his way back to his camp from the feast, after he'd crossed back over the Wall. I guess it's possible they were peasant girls, I'm just not sure how likely that is. If so, they went native pretty darn quickly.

My real problem with Stannis's/Selyse's belief that Val is a princess is because, even if Dalla was considered a queen, I don't think her sister wouldn't be considered a princess even in Westerosi culture. In European royal families, if the king somehow marries a commoner, her sister doesn't get the title of princess. If Joffrey had married Sansa, Arya wouldn't have been called Princess. When Margaery married Joffrey, then Tommen, her brothers didn't gain the title of Prince.

Is this because, to people like Stannis and Selyse, a king marrying someone not of royal/noble blood is anathema, so they just assume Val had to be a princess for her sister to marry a King?>

Well, Westeros isn't modern-day England and the rules of what makes someone royalty in that society seem to be somewhat different. When Robb was declared and crowned King in the North, his brothers and by sisters were Princes and Princesses, by those who acknowledged Robb's kingship. They're all too young to know what a wife or husband of one of Robb's siblings would be called.

When Balon Greyjoy named himself King of the Ironborn after Theon's return, his son became "Prince" Theon - according to the Ironborn - but not to anyone else. "Prince" Theon captured Winterfell from "Prince" Bran who was ruling Winterfell in his brother's place, etc.

By the same token, Mance was commonly acknowledged as "King beyond the Wall" which had less to do with bloodlines and more to do with who could win the right to rule the many factions of Free Folk (kind of like how Aeogn the Conqueror won the kingship of Westeros, or Robert won Kingship by forcibly deposing Aerys). He was called King beyond the Wall even in the South of Westeros. Evidently, South of the Wall that made his wife Dalla a "Queen" and her sister Val a "Princess", according to how Southroners viewed things. The fact that the Free Folk didn't think of royalty titles in the same way doesn't change how the Southroners viewed things.

Nightstar:

Right; I don't want Jon to end up alone either.

I hope he does acquire a kingdom, or at least a lordship, and the wife to go with it!

(I just don't want it to be Val).

To be honest, I would enjoy seeing Jon matched with a girl totally unlike the ones he knows (Like Val, Ygritte, Arya). They are all feisty, plain-spoken, tomboyish, ready to fight.

The antithesis of that? Margaery Tyrell! Or Sansa, Myrcella, Jeyne Westerling. Castle-raised, all silks and satins and manipulation. It would be fun!

(Personally I would like to see Jon end up with Meera Reed or Wylla Manderly, but it would be far more interesting if he should end up with a Southron lady).

I think Jon likes girls with personalities more like his favorite little sister and (assuming he is Lyanna's son) like his Mother - although he doesn't know it yet. I think Val is more his "type" than a girly girl. (personally, I like Val so I'd be happy if he ended up with her). That is, assuming he does get to do something more with his life after his commitment to the Nights Watch is done. Sadly, I think Val is likely to die as well given the dangerous situation at the Wall.

Who else? I think Dany is being set up as much more the battle-Queen, less "young girl who knows nothing of these things"-blah, blah, the role she's been playing for the Mereenese nobility. And actually despite the mistakes she made trying to change the slave-based economy, Dany's been pretty formidable for a 15 year old girl managing to hatch three dragons from petrified eggs and conquer a few cities. By the time she makes it to Westeros with whatever remains of her army (if any) and dragons (if any) she'll be much less naive. Would I like it? I'm not so sure. GRRM has a way of making things work eventually, but I still think any pairing between Jon and Dany would end tragically when Jon finds out she is his aunt by blood (Starks don't do incest, even if Targaryens do).

I could see Jon and Maergery, because she is smart and capable and was well schooled in the Game of Thrones by Lady Redwyne. She's genteel but likes to ride and falconry, so she's not strictly pretty, pretty princess. And Wylla Manderly? Sure, why not?

[tze]

Well, Westeros isn't modern-day England and the rules of what makes someone royalty in that society seem to be somewhat different. When Robb was declared and crowned King in the North, his brothers and by sisters were Princes and Princesses, by those who acknowledged Robb's kingship. They're all too young to know what a wife or husband of one of Robb's siblings would be called.

When Balon Greyjoy named himself King of the Ironborn after Theon's return, his son became "Prince" Theon - according to the Ironborn - but not to anyone else. "Prince" Theon captured Winterfell from "Prince" Bran who was ruling Winterfell in his brother's place, etc.

By the same token, Mance was commonly acknowledged as "King beyond the Wall" which had less to do with bloodlines and more to do with who could win the right to rule the many factions of Free Folk (kind of like how Aeogn the Conqueror won the kingship of Westeros, or Robert won Kingship by forcibly deposing Aerys). He was called King beyond the Wall even in the South of Westeros. Evidently, South of the Wall that made his wife Dalla a "Queen" and her sister Val a "Princess", according to how Southroners viewed things. The fact that the Free Folk didn't think of royalty titles in the same way doesn't change how the Southroners viewed things.

True, but those analogies aren't quite the same thing. Val is Dalla's sister, not Mance's sister. Jeyne Westerlng's siblings didn't gain the title "Prince/Princess of the North" when Jeyne married Robb. Garlan and Willas Tyrell weren't called "Prince" when their sister married the King. Elia's brothers were Princes of Dorne because that's the title used for the rulers of Dorne instead of "Lord"---Doran and Oberyn weren't considered Princes of the Seven Kingdoms through Elia's marriage to Rhaegar.

I could see Jon and Maergery, because she is smart and capable and was well schooled in the Game of Thrones by Lady Redwyne. She's genteel but likes to ride and falconry, so she's not strictly pretty, pretty princess.

I can't see Jon ever going for a Southern lady. Someone like Margarey likes to ride and hunt, but when push comes to shove she isn't grabbing a sword and attacking anyone. Jon thinks to himself that part of Val's appeal is that she is

A warrior princess, he decided, not some willowy creature who sits up in a tower, brushing her hair and waiting for some knight to rescue her.

Personally, I see him hooking up with Alysanne Mormont. She's a warrior. She has two kids whose father(s) might not be around ("stepfather" is a role Jon would excel at). Plus, the fact that Jeor Mormont considered him a son and Jon now has House Mormont's ancestral blade could foreshadow Jon marrying one of the Mormont girls.

[HodorSaysHodor]

To be honest, I would enjoy seeing Jon matched with a girl totally unlike the ones he knows (Like Val, Ygritte, Arya).  They are all feisty, plain-spoken, tomboyish, ready to fight.

The antithesis of that?  Margaery Tyrell!  Or Sansa, Myrcella, Jeyne Westerling.  Castle-raised, all silks and satins and manipulation.  It would be fun!

(Personally I would like to see Jon end up with Meera Reed or Wylla Manderly, but it would be far more interesting if he should end up with a Southron lady).

Wait a minute. You don't consider Meera Reed or Wylla Manderly feisty, plain-spoken, tomboyish, or ready to fight? I don't know about "tomboyish", but this is how I'd describe both of them. These traits were what attracted him to Ygritte. I can't see Jon with a Southron lady at all.

There is definitely a strong attraction between Val and Jon. Whether it turns into a love relationship is anyone's guess, but I suspect that if she's the one who nurses him back to health, things are going to get smolderingly hot very fast. In fact, the Wall may be in danger of melting. :lol:

[Nightstar]

Wait a minute. You don't consider Meera Reed or Wylla Manderly feisty, plain-spoken, tomboyish, or ready to fight? I don't know about "tomboyish", but this is how I'd describe both of them.

Of course I do! That's why I said they are (or had been) my personal preference.

BUT- lately I have come to believe one of the other girls (like Margaery) would be more fun to read about! So I would want to see him with a Southron lady. Because he is so much a creature of the North.

Attraction of opposites.

[Lady of Long Lake]

Right; I don't want Jon to end up alone either.

I hope he does acquire a kingdom, or at least a lordship, and the wife to go with it!

(I just don't want it to be Val).

To be honest, I would enjoy seeing Jon matched with a girl totally unlike the ones he knows (Like Val, Ygritte, Arya). They are all feisty, plain-spoken, tomboyish, ready to fight.

The antithesis of that? Margaery Tyrell! Or Sansa, Myrcella, Jeyne Westerling. Castle-raised, all silks and satins and manipulation. It would be fun!

(Personally I would like to see Jon end up with Meera Reed or Wylla Manderly, but it would be far more interesting if he should end up with a Southron lady).

As it stands now, Jon is still Ned's bastard. I'd hate for Jon to marry "any" Lady because it would make Jon feel inferior, like he has felt his entire life ( thank you very much Caitlyn) . Even if Robb's parchment is found and Jon is the legal heir of Winterfell, I could imagine him feeling "looked down upon" if he wedded a highborn lass.

If he did marry a lady though, Wylla would be my first choice! I know Meera is 7(6?) years older than Bran but I sure would love to see those two kids end up together.