[ADWD Spoilers] Val

[Olenna]

so because her badassery is offscreen, she isnt a badass?hell, robert(pre-king) and drogo are painted as bad asses, do we actually see them do anything?no,are they still badass?yes

I didn't say she wasn't a badass. I'm saying that GRRM is content to TELL us that she's a badass without really showing it. This isn't a deal-breaker by itself, but it's part of a larger lack of investment in her characterization. The comparison to Robert doesn't work because his badassery was all in the past, whereas Val's is supposed to be part of her current persona. The comparison to Drogo is apt, though, and it's one reason why Drogo comes across as a flat character. Like Val.

[Spring Bass]

I didn't say she wasn't a badass. I'm saying that GRRM is content to TELL us that she's a badass without really showing it. This isn't a deal-breaker by itself, but it's part of a larger lack of investment in her characterization. The comparison to Robert doesn't work because his badassery was all in the past, whereas Val's is supposed to be part of her current persona. The comparison to Drogo is apt, though, and it's one reason why Drogo comes across as a flat character. Like Val.

But he doesn't just tell us that she's a badass. He shows her riding off through the Haunted Forest, alone, to find Tormund and his people. She succeeds without a scratch. Considering that the Haunted Forest is chock-full of Others and Wights, that's very badass.

[Steve Moss]

Otherwise, it's all turnips and zombie invasions.

If the choice is between turnips and zombie invasions, I pick zombie invasions. ;)

[Winterborn]

If the choice is between turnips and zombie invasions, I pick zombie invasions. ;)

At least you don't get bored when you have zombie invasions three times a day ...

[Olenna]

But he doesn't just tell us that she's a badass. He shows her riding off through the Haunted Forest, alone, to find Tormund and his people. She succeeds without a scratch. Considering that the Haunted Forest is chock-full of Others and Wights, that's very badass.

Exactly. It's badass offscreen. That counts as telling not showing in my book.

Again, this won't be a problem if she turns out to be more interesting/layered in subsequent books. I'm just afraid that she'll end up as Jon's consort but still just be a token action babe whose exploits are stated but glossed over and who doesn't have a personality independent of her plot function.

[howland_reed]

I like Val.

I wonder if those put off by her are already predisposed against her simply because they were shipping some other pair for Jon (ie. Dany). Jon and Dany are worlds apart and with only 2 planned books remaining, there is no way GRRM can build a convincing romance that won't seem absolutely forced to the reader. At least here, I can see the seeds being planted, and while Val is a pretty two-dimensional character at the moment, she was also introduced very late. You're complaining about the lack of development of a character who was only introduced late in ASOS and has had no PoV chapters. It's as premature as complaining about Jaime's character as being only a typical badboy villain after reading only GoT/CoK.

The only valid knock against her is that she is a walking fantasy cliche. Attractive, intelligent, an independent spirit, and considered a princess, even if not really. But I'm surprised that puts people off considering that's the exact same description as Lyanna Stark.

[DemiNymph]

Somehow, I don't think unJon will be up to having much sex when all the other Uns don't drink, eat or sleep. So no, unJon, if he gets uned, will not end up with Val.

[Joanna vander Poele]

If the choice is between turnips and zombie invasions, I pick zombie invasions. ;)

Turnips? What the hell are turnips? I only know neeps...

[Olenna]

I wonder if those put off by her are already predisposed against her simply because they were shipping some other pair for Jon (ie. Dany).

Not me. My only objection to Val is that she's a two-dimensional perfect fantasy cliché. (Lyanna was too, but at least she made a really bad decision, which brought her down to earth for me.) Like you said, she could get more interesting in subsequent books.

I realize this whole topic is an overreaction on my part. But I get so annoyed when characters are depicted as flawless. Here's hoping that she'll kill Shireen in a misguided attempt to prevent a greyscale epidemic.

[howland_reed]

Not me. My only objection to Val is that she's a two-dimensional perfect fantasy cliché. (Lyanna was too, but at least she made a really bad decision, which brought her down to earth for me.) Like you said, she could get more interesting in subsequent books.

I realize this whole topic is an overreaction on my part. But I get so annoyed when characters are depicted as flawless. Here's hoping that she'll kill Shireen in a misguided attempt to prevent a greyscale epidemic.

We've already gotten hints that she's not flawless though. She names Gilly's baby, "Monster." She advocates euthanizing Shireen cause of greyscale. You could even argue the fact that she'd slit the throat of a husband forced on her is another questionable character trait, but perhaps that too is a fantasy trope? If she were demure like Sansa, would that make her any less of a cliche? Or do you prefer she was described as less attractive and coveted and be more plain Jane like Ygritte?

I understand your gripe though. She's definitely portrayed initially as a typical fantasy heroine. But where I suppose we differ is that I simply don't mind that as a romantic interest for Jon, considering Jon himself is your typical fantasy hero. And I trust GRRM to be able to develop her further, if her role is to be expanded.

[GreyJackal]

I like Val.

She's not overexposed, has wit, and seems to know more about surviving than half the cast. With Jon having.....um....downtime maybe she will take over as a POV for next book.(Or if there are no more new POVs Melisandre)

I think she gets flak for being hot, competent, and being able to stir our beloved Lord Commander. Because of this she might come off as being to....perfect I guess?

Barring all that, I am glad she didn't end up marrying the star guy. Here's hoping she has more exposure later on and not just ending up a side character with no relevance.

[Alexia]

We've already gotten hints that she's not flawless though. She names Gilly's baby, "Monster."

Is this a flaw? I nicknamed my toddler Monster because I thought it was cute.

[RAAM]

no, its not, in fact, she seems kinda fond of him

saying that a kid with greyscale should be killed is a flaw,though i actually think shell be right, that its just dormant and will be reactivated at some point in the book, to introduce disease to the north as connington introduces it to the south, so itll be war, disease, and famine to accompany the Other invasion and the longest, harshest winter ever, westeros seems well and truly screwed

[Été]

'Monster' is just a nickname surely? Wildlings don't give their children proper names until their second name-day.

[El Pinko Grande]

Why are we calling Val a badass action chick? She's not described as a spearwife anywhere, which she presumably would be if she did any serious fighting. Yes, she manages to find Tormund in a dangerous forest, but that doesn't mean she's fighting her way through wights and others, just that she's good at avoiding them. Which is in itself kind of badass, but it doesn't make her Xena or Buffy. I imagine that any number of other wildling women would be equally good at that, simply because skulking around the forest is probably a basic survival skill for people north of the Wall.

[shadow catlady]

I agree that Val isn't an interestingly developed character at this point, but I am hoping what is interesting will be built upon in the future.

For example, it is mildly interesting that she is beautiful and brave and possibly wise and/or clever.

I think her reaction to Shireen's greyscale is very interesting, and I'm hoping for more than just a character flawed by superstition. More that some plague, either, though the relatively frequent mention of greyscale in ADwD seems to point to that. Could it be something that works differently north of the Wall or with wights? (I still think a plague is most likely, and therefore more potential wights.)

I do think it's interesting that cold mists are possibly associated with both greyscale and raising wights.

My first concern with Val is reaction towards Wun Wun who is guarding her. I doubt Stannis and Selyse and company like Wun Wun's methods of protection at this point, but there are also plenty of dangerous men around that want a piece of her, it seems. I wouldn't like it if she became another beautiful princessy victim.

[reiver]

My first concern with Val is reaction towards Wun Wun who is guarding her. I doubt Stannis and Selyse and company like Wun Wun's methods of protection at this point, but there are also plenty of dangerous men around that want a piece of her, it seems. I wouldn't like it if she became another beautiful princessy victim.

After reading through the thread i was going to say something similar. Do we know Val is still alive and well? Ser Patrek was the man who was supposed to marry her and must have done something to provoke a reaction like that from Wun Wun. Maybe it was as simple as arrogantly demanding to see her but it could also have been violence against her.

I do think Jon has feelings towards Val. I can't pull out a specific part but his immediate thought when he hears a scream in the last chapter is Val not any of the other women there. i suppose it could be argued that it could also be platonic regard or brotherly affection but i do think he has the hots for her.

[Été]

I do think Jon has feelings towards Val. I can't pull out a specific part but his immediate thought when he hears a scream in the last chapter is Val not any of the other women there. i suppose it could be argued that it could also be platonic regard or brotherly affection but i do think he has the hots for her.

I thought it was Ser Patrek who screamed?

[El Pinko Grande]

I thought it was Ser Patrek who screamed?

The scream was specifically noted to be mannish, IIRC. Unlikely it's anyone but Ser Patrek.

[Aelinor]

I had a feeling it Sir Patrek was on his way to try to "steal" Val as Jon suggested. But that's possibly just wild speculation since no one else listens to Jon about wildling customs.