[ADwD Spoilers] Quentyn Martell

[Jehane]

I just finished the book, and I was seriously disappointed in how the story of Quentyn Martell turned out. He traveled halfway around the world, then failed to woo Daenerys. That I can understand. But not only does he not woo her, he fails to advance the overall story in any direction at all, except for the end, when he accidentally frees Viseryon and Rhaegal. My question is, did we really need I don't know how many POV chapters dedicated to a character who neither affects any other major character in the story, nor offers any sort of insight into the overall plot. It would have been better if GRRM had just kept him as a side character, not as a POV. Maybe if he had been introduced earlier, I might have felt a greater deal of attachment for him, and been more emotionally hit when he gets burned. Instead, all I felt was a bit of pity, and anger that a potentially interesting plot point was dragged across the entire book before being burnt to a crisp.

Totally agree with you. From the very first moment Quentyn showed up, I thought him to be dull and boring. I could've lived with him becoming Dany's new companion, though - it would have made for a very strong alliance with Dorne. But he arrived too late and couldn't convince Dany to marry him - I think that part is also connected to Dany being still a teenager in love with another man, paying attention basically to a) attractiveness and B) experience. If Quentyn would have been more attractive, he might have succeeded. I believe there's even a short paragraph in which Dany thinks to herself that Quentyn just isn't pretty enough to look upon and that she regrets this fact.

Or - and this is just me speculating away - if Dany had been more mature (that is, grown out of her teenage and into her twenties) she might have tossed attractiveness and experience aside and chosen Quentyn over Daario as well as over Hizdahr. She would have realised that an alliance with Dorne would be a lot more helpful to her cause (gain the Iron Throne) than trying to rule Meereen, a city which obviously is very hard to rule. I know what she's doing in Meereen - testing herself as a queen before heading to Westeros. But it doesn't work very well so her best choice - in my opinion - would have been to marry dull Quentyn, form an alliance with Dorne, conquer Westeros, and give a damn thing about Meereen :)

Since she didn't do that, Quentyn was left with only two choices: sail home empty-handed or try to do something brave in order to prove himself. He chose to do the latter, and I still think his whole story is pointless (especially his POVs - he could've been just a minor character showing up and disappearing again) - unless it leads to a reaction from Dorne that might change the game of thrones. I can see Dorne throwing in their lot with Aegon or even Stannis, but I think they'll blame Quentyn's death on Dany and her dragons even though Dany wasn't there to prevent Quentyn from doing this foolish thing and even though Dany wasn't the fool but Quentyn. Or maybe Dorne will stay out of it alltogether. We'll see.

[Gogossos]

I don't think Dany needed Quentyn's marriage, even if she was already heading west. She told Quentyn just as much - that he came for "fire and blood" and that marriage wasn't the only route to secure an alliance. But he became desperate and foolish, partly because Dany wasn't around but mainly because Hizdahr was chasing him away from Meereen. I don't see Dorne reacting in unison like they did to Elia's death: the Sand Snakes might have divided opinions, Arianne might not be as vengeful, Aegon might not be trusted by everybody and Doran might still want those dragons on his side. At best Quentyn's death will divide opinion within the Martells, let alone Dorne.

[iamthedave]

I don't think Dany needed Quentyn's marriage, even if she was already heading west. She told Quentyn just as much - that he came for "fire and blood" and that marriage wasn't the only route to secure an alliance. But he became desperate and foolish, partly because Dany wasn't around but mainly because Hizdahr was chasing him away from Meereen. I don't see Dorne reacting in unison like they did to Elia's death: the Sand Snakes might have divided opinions, Arianne might not be as vengeful, Aegon might not be trusted by everybody and Doran might still want those dragons on his side. At best Quentyn's death will divide opinion within the Martells, let alone Dorne.

The Martells are an incredibly volatile and vengeful family. Dany's dragon just killed Doran Martell's son. And you honestly think he's just going to brush that off and say 'oh well, there goes another one!' and get on with his marriage alliance?

No. This will cause no divided opinion. It will make people very, very angry. They'll make it damn hard for Dany to get those spears after this, or else every bit of characterization we've seen out of the Dornish to date will be false.

Doran sent Quentyn to Dany, offering the strength of Dorne. Dany said 'no'. What bloody right does she have to turn up later and ask for them, then?

And why would the sand snakes have differing opinions? These are the girls who seem to - with straight faces - advocate the murder of children and literally every Lannister in Westeros to wipe away a crime a decade old when everyone responsible for it is dead already. What's different here?

Moreover, how is Quentyn's scenario different to Oberyn's? The Lannisters didn't kill Oberyn, he basically committed suicide in an attempt to kill Gregor. You don't see any of them acting like it was Oberyn's fault (when it 100% was his fault and the Lannisters are completely blameless). These are not reasonable people where matters of family are concerned, and no way, no how, are they going to let Dany off the hook.

[brashcandy]

I don't think Dany needed Quentyn's marriage, even if she was already heading west. She told Quentyn just as much - that he came for "fire and blood" and that marriage wasn't the only route to secure an alliance. But he became desperate and foolish, partly because Dany wasn't around but mainly because Hizdahr was chasing him away from Meereen. I don't see Dorne reacting in unison like they did to Elia's death: the Sand Snakes might have divided opinions, Arianne might not be as vengeful, Aegon might not be trusted by everybody and Doran might still want those dragons on his side. At best Quentyn's death will divide opinion within the Martells, let alone Dorne.

I agree with you here Gogossos. First things first, Quentyn was not able to help Dany when it really mattered: in Meereen. He showed up bringing promises of an army and assistance (back in Dorne) and trying to make a marriage pact now - it was always doomed to fail.

Now if Doran is going to support Aegon he doesn't need to be mad at Dany to do it. Aegon has the greater emotional pull anyways being Elia's son. It's either Doran decides to throw in with them out of greater allegiance or he remains cautious about Aegon's legitimacy. And we know what a cautious and careful man Doran is.

I think Dorne will be divided, and Doran is not going to be so ready to sacrifice dragons for someone who might not be the real deal.

[Jehane]

Doran sent Quentyn to Dany, offering the strength of Dorne. Dany said 'no'. What bloody right does she have to turn up later and ask for them, then?

Exactly. Why would they want to help her since she turned down Quentyn and, in their eyes, made him do the most foolish thing a man can do - attempt to tame a dragon? I think that Dorne will hold Dany responsible for Quentyn's death, regardless that she wasn't even around when it happened.

Moreover, how is Quentyn's scenario different to Oberyn's? The Lannisters didn't kill Oberyn, he basically committed suicide in an attempt to kill Gregor. You don't see any of them acting like it was Oberyn's fault (when it 100% was his fault and the Lannisters are completely blameless). These are not reasonable people where matters of family are concerned, and no way, no how, are they going to let Dany off the hook.

Good point. Just look at the scene in which they receive Gregor's head - oh joy, oh joy. There's not a single word that maybe Oberyn might have been a fool to fight the Mountain, that he brought his death upon himself by, instead of finishing Gregor off for good, kneeling on his breast. How stupid is that? Cut off his head and be done with it but don't sit/kneel on the guy to see if he's truly dead. Now you're dead, Oberyn, and what's the family doing? Seeking revenge - for a death that occurred in a more or less honest fight.

[iamthedave]

Exactly. Why would they want to help her since she turned down Quentyn and, in their eyes, made him do the most foolish thing a man can do - attempt to tame a dragon? I think that Dorne will hold Dany responsible for Quentyn's death, regardless that she wasn't even around when it happened.

Well, my point was that they won't be that reasonable about it. Quentyn more or less pulled an Oberyn and got himself killed, but I see no evidence that the Dornish are reasonable, nor the Sand Snakes.

Doran maybe, but Dany basically ruined his carefully orchestrated plan, and her doing so resulted in the death of his son. This won't please him.

[Jehane]

"Pulled an Oberyn" - I like that *g*

I agree with you - the Martells won't be reasonable, they'll want some kind of revenge.

[Antonius Pius]

And why would the sand snakes have differing opinions? These are the girls who seem to - with straight faces - advocate the murder of children and literally every Lannister in Westeros to wipe away a crime a decade old when everyone responsible for it is dead already. What's different here?

The only difference is that the one they want avenged is their father and über-hero The Red Viper. Elia and her children were innocent victims of bloody murder. Quentyn woke the dragon and got burned.

Besiders Doran, no-one might give a fart that Quentyn got himself killed.

BTW, if they're so devoted to Elia's memory and Fire and Blood, they should rush over to swear their swords to Aegon. You know, Elia's son.

[Jehane]

BTW, if they're so devoted to Elia's memory and Fire and Blood, they should rush over to swear their swords to Aegon. You know, Elia's son.

They'll probably do that once they learn that he's actually alive :)

[iamthedave]

Besiders Doran, no-one might give a fart that Quentyn got himself killed.

Good thing Doran's got no power whatsoever, then!

Seriously, does this make even a lick of sense with what you've seen from the Dornish?

[Antonius Pius]

They'll probably do that once they learn that he's actually alive :)

They should, or forever keep silent ;)

Good thing Doran's got no power whatsoever, then!

Seriously, does this make even a lick of sense with what you've seen from the Dornish?

All I'm saying is that Overyn is this magical mythical entity that half of Dorne is upset about. They might not be so upset about Quentyn's ignoble death in a far away land on a secret mission. There's no telling what kind of garbled reports will come back to Dorne.

[Gogossos]

No. This will cause no divided opinion. It will make people very, very angry. They'll make it damn hard for Dany to get those spears after this, or else every bit of characterization we've seen out of the Dornish to date will be false.

Well, two of Quentyn's friends who were there already have a divided opinion. And their accounts of what happened will also likely divide opinion. The Martells seem to be a vengeful group but besides the Starks (with the manner of Lord Rickard and Brandon's deaths) they happen to have a very legitimate reason to hate their enemies and the Mountain in particular. Oberyn dying at the hands of the Mountain seems to have incensed them more. But they have also accepted a more measured approach, with a couple of Sand Snakes heading to KL, one of them sitting in the council with both rivals the Lannisters and Tyrells. So I don't see this gung-ho group that won't listen to reason - they even patiently waited some 15 years for an opportunity to avenge Elia. I really do see Quentyn's death causing a divided opinion, even Aegon is likely to divide opinion of whether he is legit or not.

[Silverin]

They should, or forever keep silent ;)

All I'm saying is that Overyn is this magical mythical entity that half of Dorne is upset about. They might not be so upset about Quentyn's ignoble death in a far away land on a secret mission. There's no telling what kind of garbled reports will come back to Dorne.

It is true, but allying with Aegon right now, gives them a chances to fight against the Lannisters, while on the other hand if they hear the rumors they won't only hear about Quentyn they will hear about that she married a Meereenese, possibly won't come, since seems like she decided to stay, and possibly dead. So I am not sure they will sit around waiting for dragons. And wether they liked Quentyn or not, he is still part of the royal family.

By the way, Quentyn's death will probably have the greates effect on his mother, who lives in Novros. She was so furios at Doran that he took him away from her, that is why they living apart, imagine after she hears about his deaths (And she will probably hear it before Doran). Was there ever stated wether she has any kind of power in Novros or was she just a regular commoner.

Oh by thew way:

About the effects of Quentyn's death. Although Yronwoods son (was he his heir as well?) died way before they reached dany, but he may feel that Dany with her 'no' disrespected his life, sacrifice. Remeber that Quentyn decided to get the dragon, and he said something to Gerris that he does it so his death wouldnt be meaningless, how he died so they could reach dany with the alliance, and if they go back with empty hands he died for nothing. Not to mention since Yronwood was the one who raised Quentyn he might have seen him as his son as well. If I remember correctly he is among the more influental dornish families isn't he?

EDIT: SOrry earlier I wrote that his mother lives in Pentos. I just remembered she lives in Novros.

EDIT: I just looked up on the wiki, so i don't know how much are these real:

House Yronwood of Yronwood is the most powerful house in Dorne after the Martells.

• House Yronwood is among the principal houses sworn to Sunspear.
  
• When Oberyn Martell was no older than sixteen, he was found abed with old Lord Yronwood's paramour and they fought a duel. Although it was only to first blood, Lord Yronwood's wounds festered and he died shortly afterwards, originating rumors that the Red Viper's blade had been poisoned. This caused Prince Doran Martell to "repay a blood debt" which he felt obliged to do and sent his second child, Quentyn Martell, to foster with the new Lord of Yronwood, Ormond. Quentyn was sent more than 10 years after the incident.
  
• Following Doran's instructions, Anders Yronwood mustered and maintained an army in the Boneway during the War of the Five Kings.
  
• Quentyn Martell served at Yronwood (first with Lord Ormond and then with Lord Anders) as page and squire. He chose to be knighted by Lord Anders himself instead of his uncle Oberyn Martell.
  
• Ser Cletus Yronwood was seen with Quentyn Martell at Planky Town, looking for a ship.
  
• Since his son and his maester were traveling with Quentyn to the east, with all probability Lord Anders Yronwood had been entrusted by Doran Martell with the critical secret of his support for the Targaryen restoration.
  
• House Yronwood fought for House Blackfyre in three of the Blackfyre Rebellions.
  
• Lord Anders delayed Ser Balon Swann at Yronwood by feasting him for a fortnight
  

I say I think the Yronwoods will want to support Aegon, even if they might think he can be a Blackfyre (the GC supports him).

[iamthedave]

So I don't see this gung-ho group that won't listen to reason - they even patiently waited some 15 years for an opportunity to avenge Elia. I really do see Quentyn's death causing a divided opinion, even Aegon is likely to divide opinion of whether he is legit or not.

You've missed that Doran - and Doran only - waited 15 years. He's spent that entire time reigning in his entire nation, and as a result has become broadly hated by his family and his people. You telling me that you read Obara Sand and see patience? Remember the blatant betrayal of Doran that resulted in Myrcella getting scarred? His family has been itching to get revenge, and only Doran held them back.

[tze]

You've missed that Doran - and Doran only - waited 15 years. He's spent that entire time reigning in his entire nation, and as a result has become broadly hated by his family and his people. You telling me that you read Obara Sand and see patience? Remember the blatant betrayal of Doran that resulted in Myrcella getting scarred? His family has been itching to get revenge, and only Doran held them back.

I really think Quentyn's death could be the straw that breaks the camel's back. (No pun intended.) Doran's great plan is to put a woman on the throne who refused to marry into House Martell, refusing Dornish aid for her conquest of Westeros in the process. Quentyn was killed in Dany's home by Dany's dragons. No matter what their personal feelings toward Quentyn, the Dornish are extremely nationalistic. Quentyn was a Prince of Dorne, and someone's going to get blamed for his death, and that someone won't be Quentyn.

By the way, Quentyn's death will probably have the greates effect on his mother, who lives in Novros. She was so furios at Doran that he took him away from her, that is why they living apart, imagine after she hears about his deaths (And she will probably hear it before Doran). Was there ever stated wether she has any kind of power in Novros or was she just a regular commoner.

Something weird is going on with Lady Mellario. She apparently halted Doran's plans to send Arianne to Tyrosh to meet up with Viserys, threatening to kill herself, because Lady Mellario couldn't bear losing another child. So . . . she was so upset at being separated from her children that she went across the Narrow Sea to live in Norvos? Without any of said children? If she'd stayed in Sunspear she would have had Arianne and Trystane right there, and she could have visted Quentyn frequently. So if she felt so strongly about being with her children, why would she abandon Arianne and Trystane?

[The Mother of The Others]

Without Quentyn, the dragons die. That's why he matters to the story.

The slavers have Meereen in a stranglehold and will continue to put the squeeze on the city until the ruler agrees to kill the trapped dragons to placate the wise masters. Now thanks to him the dragons are no longer trapped and killable, so the slaver's leverage goes away. (And right away they give up on manipulating the city, now that there's no longer any point. Launching the infected bodies over the walls means the slavers have taken up the task themselves instead of tricking the king into doing their job for them. That's how Quentyn moved the plot along. The king wouldn't have had the option to do what Quent did. It wouldn't have been good governing for him to endanger his own people like that, you know? So only Quent could save the dragons.)

And yes it makes things weirder for Doran (who may now second guess himself into commiting to the wrong cause, or to the only Targaryen who's still available to him, or now that Doran is twice bitten he might be too shy to give his full support to Aegon during the critical window when Griff needs to build momentum, etc.

Sorry if already said.

[brashcandy]

Without Quentyn, the dragons die. That's why he matters to the story.

The slavers have Meereen in a stranglehold and will continue to put the squeeze on the city until the ruler agrees to kill the trapped dragons to placate the wise masters. Now thanks to him the dragons are no longer trapped and killable, so the slaver's leverage goes away. (And right away they give up on manipulating the city, now that there's no longer any point. Launching the infected bodies over the walls means the slavers have taken up the task themselves instead of tricking the king into doing their job for them. That's how Quentyn moved the plot along. The king wouldn't have had the option to do what Quent did. It wouldn't have been good governing for him to endanger his own people like that, you know? So only Quent could save the dragons.)

And yes it makes things weirder for Doran (who may now second guess himself into commiting to the wrong cause, or to the only Targaryen who's still available to him, or now that Doran is twice bitten he might be too shy to give his full support to Aegon during the critical window when Griff needs to build momentum, etc.

Sorry if already said.

Good points. I'm just not certain on this Doran will be raging mad against Dany theory. To use your analogy, twice bitten, twice shy - except in Doran's case (and poor Quentyn's) he's been twice burnt by the dragons. I don't think he'll be so eager to pledge allegiance to another one at all. I could see Dorne actually linking up with the Vale and/or waiting the mess out. I actually have no reasoning for this :) just my imagination that Doran will give a big middle finger to Aegon and crew. ;)

[iamthedave]

Good points. I'm just not certain on this Doran will be raging mad against Dany theory. To use your analogy, twice bitten, twice shy - except in Doran's case (and poor Quentyn's) he's been twice burnt by the dragons. I don't think he'll be so eager to pledge allegiance to another one at all. I could see Dorne actually linking up with the Vale and/or waiting the mess out. I actually have no reasoning for this :) just my imagination that Doran will give a big middle finger to Aegon and crew. ;)

I can see him breaking and just retiring to the water gardens in his grief, or alligning with Aegon.

But if he allies with Dany for anything other than backbreaking rewards, I'll be flat-out disgusted. It just seems grotesquely out of character to even suggest it. I can see him having that little voice in the back of his mind saying 'this is an opportunity, make favourable terms for Dorne', though.

[brashcandy]

I can see him breaking and just retiring to the water gardens in his grief, or alligning with Aegon.

But if he allies with Dany for anything other than backbreaking rewards, I'll be flat-out disgusted. It just seems grotesquely out of character to even suggest it. I can see him having that little voice in the back of his mind saying 'this is an opportunity, make favourable terms for Dorne', though.

Yeah it could happen that way too for sure. And as you noted, he may get pressure from the people of Dorne. Somehow, I more see him being persuaded to Aegon's side if Arianne ends up falling in love with him.

[Silverin]

the thing is that I don't think Doran is all that powerful in Dorne that it will be his decision wether they support Aegon or not. Just like among the Starks there are families with different agenda (like the Boltons) than their liege lord the same is true to Dorne.

My big guess is the Yronwoods will go either supporting Aegon or do nothing.

1. As my post above showed, Quentyn chose to be knighted by lord Yronwood insted of his own uncle. I think it means he was really close to them like a family. Maybe Lord Yronwood see him like that as well. (I think because of that they might don't want to wait for Dany)

2. Lord Yronwood lost his son on the rout to dany as well, and as I said maybe just like Quentyn he will feel his death was meaningless. And maybe will be offended by the fact that Dany said 'no' to Quentyn. Since that is why his son died, for the marriage to happen. (Again why I think they wouldn't wait for Dany)

3. Yronwood is the second most powerful house in Dorne. (It means they are really important)

4. The Yronwood were important kings in Dorne before the arrival of the Rhoynar

5. They fought the Martells during Nymeria's War and since then the two houses have been rivals for the control of Dorne (so they might wont have that good behavior, and won1t do simply what Doran tells them).

6. They joined Bittersteel against the Targaryens and Martells in three of the Blackfyre Rebellions, even though one the goals of the rebels was to remove the Dornish influence at court. (Whicj means they might support Aegon even if they suspect he is a Blackfyre. And since the GC supports him, that seems likely)

7. His eldest daughter is married to Ryon Allyrion.

8. He (Ryon Allyrion, heir of house Allyrion) is present along with his bastard son Daemon at the feast when Balon Swann arrives in Sunspear to deliver the head of Ser Gregor Clegane. He drinks when Ricasso raises a toast to King Tommen Baratheon

9. This means Yronwoods son-in-law is very anti-Tommen and might willing to jump in a chance to go against the Lannisters as well.

10. Add to this the sandSnakes who wants to avange.

11. Add to this how lalmost all in Dorne how many wanted to go to war after Oberyn's death.

12. I don't think it will be entirely Doran's call wether Dorne goes to war, and on which side.