[ADWD SPOILERS] Hope for Jon + Dany

[ARYa_Nym]

The decision might've been easier, which entailed much more than marriage. He would've also had to burn down the godswood in Winterfell, turn away from his vows, and take his sister's birthright.

He says he wanted it and that was without Ygritte. Saying Ygritte might've tipped his chances shows, I think, that he wasn't particularly against that part of the deal.

He thought it was an easy choice either way in the context of the quote and he still would have had to do the same thing no matter who his wife was.

"Would I sooner be hanged for a turncloak by Lord Janos, or forswear my vows, marry Val, and become Lord of Winterfell? It seemed an easy choice when he thought of it in those terms.....if Ygritte had still been alive, it might have been even easier. Val was a stranger to him. She was not hard on the eyes, certainly, and she had been sister to Mance Raydar's queen, but still..."

The full quote makes it seem like he saw the marriage as a better choice because he wouldn't be killed rather than him being eager to marry either Val or Ygritte. In ADWD, he made a specific assessment on Val being a wife and mother. & the fact that she could have been his. To me what he really wanted in ASOS was Winterfell. I think the wife part appealed to him because he could get children. I don't think he particularly wanted to marry Ygritte or Val then.

"I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall."

I think that changed once it became too late in his eyes to marry Val in ADWD. He started to get to know her and secretly wished that he had married her.

[Arya Targaryen]

You forget the fact that Jon, even as a bastard, was raised as a son of a Lord. And nobles (Lords, heirs, etc) rarely marry to whom they choose. Most marriages are political. However, they care about their future wifes appereance (Robb agrees to marry a Frey girl but she should have been pretty)

Marrying Val was part of a political deal. He considered it, and he found nothing agaist Val - since she was beautiful. The quote ".if Ygritte had still been alive, it might have been even easier. Val was a stranger to him." suggests that at that point he considered marriage to Ygritte as well, saying he'd prefer marry her instead of Val. I guess that's because he loved her.

And even after Ygritte's death he thinks they should/could have stayed at the cave - meaning that he would have liked to live his entire life with Ygritte.

In ADWD when he thinks Val would be a worthy wife of any Lord, I never had a feeling that this is something against Y. Y. died, that's it. And noticing Val is worthy is just a fact. Val is able, beautiful, daring... of course he is attracted to her. Does he regret he refused? Of course he does, considering a beautiful wife and possible children. But he won't betray the Old Gods, that's more important for him. He still can't help but wonder what if he had chosen Winterfell and Val. Val would worth it, definitely. Losing his honor and the godswood wouldn't.

And I would disagree that Ygritte was immoral. She had a different morality than Jon, and there were some point he may have found hard to accept, but he understood the difference. When Y. killed the old man, it was totally understandable from her POV. She was on enemy territory and the old man was a potencial danger. And it's not like she tortured him to death. She gave him a quick and clean death, with her own hand. IMO it was nothing different from when Jon killed the eagle guy (Orell, was he?).

[ARYa_Nym]

In ADWD when he thinks Val would be a worthy wife of any Lord, I never had a feeling that this is something against Y. Y. died, that's it. And noticing Val is worthy is just a fact. Val is able, beautiful, daring... of course he is attracted to her. Does he regret he refused? Of course he does, considering a beautiful wife and possible children. But he won't betray the Old Gods, that's more important for him. He still can't help but wonder what if he had chosen Winterfell and Val. Val would worth it, definitely. Losing his honor and the godswood wouldn't.

I didn't think that comment was negative towards Ygritte but to Val but he didn't mean it in that way. He was trying to compliment her. All the qualities that make Val great get her a compliment for being a worthy wife for a lord. Even if there wasn't the added fact that Val was being held hostage by nobles and was being treated as some trophy piece by all of them already it wouldn't be the kind of compliment someone like that would want to hear. He didn't mean it as an insult and it doesn't really matter because he never said it to her.

You forget the fact that Jon, even as a bastard, was raised as a son of a Lord. And nobles (Lords, heirs, etc) rarely marry to whom they choose. Most marriages are political. However, they care about their future wifes appereance (Robb agrees to marry a Frey girl but she should have been pretty)

Marrying Val was part of a political deal. He considered it, and he found nothing agaist Val - since she was beautiful. The quote ".if Ygritte had still been alive, it might have been even easier. Val was a stranger to him." suggests that at that point he considered marriage to Ygritte as well, saying he'd prefer marry her instead of Val. I guess that's because he loved her.

This is what I said except for the last two lines. He wants his wife to be attractive which a lot of people do. There's nothing wrong in liking Val due to her looks. He liked her for other reasons but her looks had a lot to do with her appeal to him. At this point he still doesn't know her that well.

Jon has judged people for their looks and it's not surprising of someone of his upbringing.

And I would disagree that Ygritte was immoral. She had a different morality than Jon, and there were some point he may have found hard to accept, but he understood the difference. When Y. killed the old man, it was totally understandable from her POV. She was on enemy territory and the old man was a potencial danger. And it's not like she tortured him to death. She gave him a quick and clean death, with her own hand. IMO it was nothing different from when Jon killed the eagle guy (Orell, was he?).

That was Ygritte's excuse to compare it to Orell but the old man never tried to fight back. He was a civilian that the widllings had captured vs. Orell who was an enemy combatant of the NW. Jon killed Orell before he could kill him. I don't think the lack of torture makes it any better. The end result is the same. He's dead because of her. Ygritte killed him with ease which shows that she has done it before. She also made callous comments about killing, theft, and rape.

She's a grey character.

[Arya Targaryen]

I didn't think that comment was negative towards Ygritte but to Val but he didn't mean it in that way. He was trying to compliment her. All the qualities that make Val great get her a compliment for being a worthy wife for a lord. Even if there wasn't the added fact that Val was being held hostage by nobles and was being treated as some trophy piece by all of them already it wouldn't be the kind of compliment someone like that would want to hear. He didn't mean it as an insult and it doesn't really matter because he never said it to her.

Sorry, I just don't get your point. Jon thinks Val is worthy of marrying, because she is beautiful, etc, but he'd rather choose Ygritte, because he knows her and loves her, even if Y. is not THAT pretty.

This is what I said except for the last two lines. He wants his wife to be attractive which a lot of people do. There's nothing wrong in liking Val due to her looks. He liked her for other reasons but her looks had a lot to do with her appeal to him. At this point he still doesn't know her that well.

He would choose someone he loves, no matter how she looks. But Y. is dead at that point.

So if he has to marry a girl he doesn't know well, she'd better be pretty. And Val IS beautiful, so there is nothing against her. And later, as he gets to know her better, he notices other character traits that he likes.

Jon has judged people for their looks and it's not surprising of someone of his upbringing.

Looks may be important, however, I think Jon is someone who waits until he gets the other known more thoroughly before judging them. Marriage is a different matter. Most nobles marry a girl they never/rarely met before, so their only way to judge them is by their looks. And is is common, no wonder Jon does the same with a girl he is supposed to marry but doesn't know well.

And as a side note: he noted Jaime looks like a King. That's not judging Jaime's personality, or thinking he should be King. It's just that he has the appropriate looks which is important is you consider Tyrion - he did a great job as Hand, but the smallfolk loathed him. Wonder why?

That was Ygritte's excuse to compare it to Orell but the old man never tried to fight back. He was a civilian that the widllings had captured vs. Orell who was an enemy combatant of the NW. Jon killed Orell before he could kill him. I don't think the lack of torture makes it any better. The end result is the same. He's dead because of her. Ygritte killed him with ease which shows that she has done it before. She also made callous comments about killing, theft, and rape.

She's a grey character.

Yes, She is grey. Just like everybody else is ASOIAF.

Orell was an armed enemy. He needed to be killed.

The Old man was not armed. But he still can be dangerous - when you are on a secret mission the last thing you want is to be spotted. The old man was not armed but he could have informed others about the danger. The Thenns and Ygritte was clearly justified in killing him, from their own POV. That's war. But Jon learned what he wanted by that time (about the horn) so he wasn't eager to stay with them - so he didn't need to pretend he was one of them. He clearly didn't want to kill an innocent man. But from the POV of the Thenns and Y. the man was dangerous.

For the record, I feel I need to mention I don't think it was right to kill him. I just say it was justified from their POV.

And I would disagree that the lack of torture didn't matter. Just ask Rattleshirt or Theon about that.

[Lady Octarina]

I'm just saying there are different degrees of it. Some people have no standards on who they will sleep with but on who they think is worthy to being their actual life partner their standards may not be the same.

I think he always paid attention to looks even in AGoT. Most of his judgements of the Lannisters and Baratheons had to do with how they looked. He thought Jamie was how a king should be because of how he looked.

I don't think he only cares about looks but he's like a lot of people. He's conscious of it and it does matter. He disapproved of Yoren when he saw him because of how he looked. Yoren as we know is actually a good person.

You sure you're describing Jon? Because that sounds like Catelyn to me :idea:

Marrying Ygritte never was completely out of the realm of possibility. If Ygritte had gotten pregnant and wanted to keep it what would he have done?

NW brothers have deflected and married before.

He was already breaking his vows because even though the NW vows says take no wife technically they are supposed to be celibate. But more than half of the NW brothers break this vow though.

Having a bastard was a possibility with Ygritte and the only way to prevent that is moon tea or marriage. Accidents can happen with contraceptives. Maybe she forgets to take it or is in a position where she doesn't have access to it. Or maybe she decides she wants to have Jon's child and refuses to.

At the very least it would have made sense for him to question whether or not he thought that she would make a worthy mother of his child like he did with Val. All he really thought was that he did not want her to have his bastard.

As I said even if he felt that could not marry her it's not relevant. He couldn't have Winterfell but he still wanted it. He said that he wished to have ICE when that was never in the realm of possibility for him either.

You see, here's the difference - as I said before I don't think Jon loved loved Ygritte. He was charmed by her, he cared about her - she was his first, after all - but jumping to the conclusion that he loved her seems too much. I'm not saying by this that he was shallow, just that I don't see how we could jump to the conclusion that he loved her. All he did was for pragmatic reason; he might have wanted, but he only had sex with her to make the wildlings believe he had left the NW behind. The same way, he only considers what kind of wife and mother Val would be because there was a real possibility at that point that he might marry her, which would also serve pragmatic reasons. Jon might not be an obvious player at the game of thrones, but he's just as concerned about it as the rest of them - only conflicted on whether he should act on it or just worry about his duties to the Wall. He's been like that since AGoT.

So, yes, he feels attracted to Ygritte and Val - but saying he loves them and using a comparison between them to think about whether or not he would marry Daenerys, that just seems too much.

[Paola Graciano]

Jon gets closer to Val in ADWD. I think he's changed his mind about her. First she was only a beautiful wildling woman who could be worth of marriage but he didn't know much about her personality and her behavior. He becomes her protector and it seems clear to me that he started to care a lot about her. It was not only about protecting the integrity of the wildling princess while Stannis was out. It became more and more personal as they interacted. Whem some character in the book asks him if he was keeping her safe or keeping her only to himself, he gets irritated 'cause he doesn't wanna face the truth. He's trying to take it as a duty but he knows there's something more.

[Winter's Lady]

Jon gest closer to Val in ADWD. I think he's changed his mind about her. First she was only a beautiful wildling woman who could be worth of marriage but he didn't know much about her personality and her behavior. He becomes her protector and it seems clear to me that he started to care a lot about her. It was not only about protecting the integrity of the wildling princess while Stannis was out. It became more and more personal as they interacted. Whem some character in the book asks him if he was keeping her safe or keeping her only to himself, he gets irritated 'cause he doesn't wanna face the truth. He's trying to take it as a duty but in he knows there's something more.

Agreed!

Just read the part where Ser Patrek asks Jon about Val's whereabouts (and she's still out fetching Tormund) He says: "Where do you keep the wench?" And the first thing Jon thinks is Away from you!. He actually gets very protective in his mind, although he can't act the way he would want.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

Agreed!

Just read the part where Ser Patrek asks Jon about Val's whereabouts (and she's still out fetching Tormund) He says: "Where do you keep the wench?" And the first thing Jon thinks is Away from you!. He actually gets very protective in his mind, although he can't act the way he would want.

It's really cute when Jon gets so protective over Val, especially with that moron ser Axell and the queen's men, and when in his last chapter he hears screams from the Tower od Harding his first thought is "Val" :wub: I'm really concerned about her and the monster now that Jon might not be around for a while.

I like Val but I got the impression that he disliked the way she spoke about Shireen.

He said that it was a Val that he had never seen before. I think that also reflects on the fact they don't know each other very well. She was gone for apart of the book and they only had small talk a few times. If there's more of that he wouldn't know because he spent so little time with her.

I think Val spoke in a pitying way but at the same time it was insensitive and was resistant to new medical information on greyscale. The wildling views on it differ but I think they also kill children with greyscale so how would they really know how it effects the children who live with it?

I feel bad for Shireen but at the same time I hope she's not paired with Rickon just in case Val is right. I doubt she's right though.

As I said I think he was more surprised for the way she was acting. She usually acts like she is in control of everything, like she knows no fear and in this case she just did let it out, yeah,it was insensitive but it seems that the widllings really think greyscale is fatal. I've wondered if it has something to do with the magic of the Wall, maybe the Wall also stops the greyscale in Westeros and keep the worst beyond. Anyway, Jon was again in denial, he didn't want to believe Val cause he doesn't want to have to kill Shireen, he says "she is wrong, she MUST be wrong" so he is doubtful. I don't think he would hold the beliefs of her people against her, is not like she asked him to kill Shireen, she just asked to get the monster out of there.

[Paola Graciano]

Yeah. She's naive. She was just acting like an ignorant wildling. Val didn't want him to kill the girl. She just wanted to keep monster safe (will this child EVER have a name? They were waiting for his first name day, right?) :D .

[kephv]

You see, here's the difference - as I said before I don't think Jon loved loved Ygritte.

He did. He says he did.

"You were wrong to love her." - his thoughts.

[Ghost714]

Yeah. She's naive. She was just acting like an ignorant wildling. Val didn't want him to kill the girl. She just wanted to keep monster safe (will this child EVER have a name? They were waiting for his first name day, right?) :D .

Actually the Wildlings think it's bad luck to name a child unti the child is "off the breast". So that isn't usually untill the second name day(maybe even the third?)

[Val the Wildling Princess]

Yeah. She's naive. She was just acting like an ignorant wildling. Val didn't want him to kill the girl. She just wanted to keep monster safe (will this child EVER have a name? They were waiting for his first name day, right?) :D .

I think the wildling babies don't get their name till their second name day.

[ARYa_Nym]

Sorry, I just don't get your point. Jon thinks Val is worthy of marrying, because she is beautiful, etc, but he'd rather choose Ygritte, because he knows her and loves her, even if Y. is not THAT pretty.

He would choose someone he loves, no matter how she looks. But Y. is dead at that point.

So if he has to marry a girl he doesn't know well, she'd better be pretty. And Val IS beautiful, so there is nothing against her. And later, as he gets to know her better, he notices other character traits that he likes.

Looks may be important, however, I think Jon is someone who waits until he gets the other known more thoroughly before judging them. Marriage is a different matter. Most nobles marry a girl they never/rarely met before, so their only way to judge them is by their looks. And is is common, no wonder Jon does the same with a girl he is supposed to marry but doesn't know well.

And as a side note: he noted Jaime looks like a King. That's not judging Jaime's personality, or thinking he should be King. It's just that he has the appropriate looks which is important is you consider Tyrion - he did a great job as Hand, but the smallfolk loathed him. Wonder why?

Yes, She is grey. Just like everybody else is ASOIAF.

Orell was an armed enemy. He needed to be killed.

The Old man was not armed. But he still can be dangerous - when you are on a secret mission the last thing you want is to be spotted. The old man was not armed but he could have informed others about the danger. The Thenns and Ygritte was clearly justified in killing him, from their own POV. That's war. But Jon learned what he wanted by that time (about the horn) so he wasn't eager to stay with them - so he didn't need to pretend he was one of them. He clearly didn't want to kill an innocent man. But from the POV of the Thenns and Y. the man was dangerous.

For the record, I feel I need to mention I don't think it was right to kill him. I just say it was justified from their POV.

And I would disagree that the lack of torture didn't matter. Just ask Rattleshirt or Theon about that.

Winterfell was what he really wanted. In ASOS, he didn't express a desire to marry either of them.

& about Jamie that's exactly what I said. He judged him based on his looks.

Yes, She is grey. Just like everybody else is ASOIAF.

Orell was an armed enemy. He needed to be killed.

The Old man was not armed. But he still can be dangerous - when you are on a secret mission the last thing you want is to be spotted. The old man was not armed but he could have informed others about the danger. The Thenns and Ygritte was clearly justified in killing him, from their own POV. That's war. But Jon learned what he wanted by that time (about the horn) so he wasn't eager to stay with them - so he didn't need to pretend he was one of them. He clearly didn't want to kill an innocent man. But from the POV of the Thenns and Y. the man was dangerous.

For the record, I feel I need to mention I don't think it was right to kill him. I just say it was justified from their POV.

And I would disagree that the lack of torture didn't matter. Just ask Rattleshirt or Theon about that.

Not everyone in ASOIAF is grey.

It makes no sense to say that she has more morals than Theon when she did something that was right up his ally.

The man she killed was not dangerous because he was elderly and a captive.

It was not an act of war. They just wanted Jon to kill him to prove his loyalty. There was no other reason to kill this man. He was just unfortunate to be at the wrong place at the wrong time and to be captured by people who did not value his life.

They didn't feel the need to justify it. He didn't matter to them. They just wanted him dead. It was never said by anyone that he was dangerous and needed to be killed.

She shouldn't be given points for not torturing him.

Jon didn't kill the old man because he felt that it wasn't right. He said that Orell was different because he was a soldier and this man was not. Ygritte said that they didn't want to be seen by him but Jon still refused. They had already taken him captive by this point and were intent on killing him so that's just a flimsy justification.

As I said I think he was more surprised for the way she was acting. She usually acts like she is in control of everything, like she knows no fear and in this case she just did let it out, yeah,it was insensitive but it seems that the widllings really think greyscale is fatal. I've wondered if it has something to do with the magic of the Wall, maybe the Wall also stops the greyscale in Westeros and keep the worst beyond. Anyway, Jon was again in denial, he didn't want to believe Val cause he doesn't want to have to kill Shireen, he says "she is wrong, she MUST be wrong" so he is doubtful. I don't think he would hold the beliefs of her people against her, is not like she asked him to kill Shireen, she just asked to get the monster out of there.

I think he disliked it because he pushed her away from. When he said that he's never seen her like this to me it seems like he didn't like what he was seeing.

The wildlings kill children with it so they have no way of knowing that Shireen isn't dangerous. They don't let them live long enough whereas in the rest of Westeros and in Essos they do. There are different forms of greyscale.

[Paola Graciano]

I think the wildling babies don't get their name till their second name day.

Yes. You're right. It's the second name day.

Reading the discussion above it came to my mind that the series had cut a very important part of one of the dialogues between Tyrion and Jon. It's when Tyrion tells him that Robb only loved him because he'd take Winterfell while Jon'd go to the wall. It was like "For him Winterfell, for you the wall". Isn't that true after all? Robb used to get along well with Jon because he was no menace. He'd never compete for the lands of his father.

Ok. We also know that Robb trusted Jon since he thought of legitimising his brother as a Stark but he was a proud man and maybe he rather to have a bastard brother taking Winterfell than losing it to his enemies.

I doubt Jon was only interested in Winterfell. He certainly was a little ambitious, but the whole relationship with Ygritte made him think of having a family, of raising kids of his own. Jon fights those feelings almost all the time. He wants to be like his father but he seems to be damning his life for this so called honor. I wonder if this refuse means a commitment with his principles (and therefore those of his father) or an escape of his inability to face his intimate fears. It's like he couldn't allow himself to be happy.

[Lady Octarina]

He did. He says he did.

"You were wrong to love her." - his thoughts.

I keep my position - if everyone can be stubborn about who Jon loves/will love/would love against all evidence, so can I.

:smug:

[ARYa_Nym]

Reading the discussion above it came to my mind that the series had cut a very important part of one of the dialogues between Tyrion and Jon. It's when Tyrion tells him that Robb only loved him because he'd take Winterfell while Jon'd go to the wall. It was like "For him Winterfell, for you the wall". Isn't that true after all? Robb used to get along well with Jon because he was no menace. He'd never compete for the lands of his father.

Ok. We also know that Robb trusted Jon since he thought of legitimising his brother as a Stark but he was a proud man and maybe he rather to have a bastard brother taking Winterfell than losing it to his enemies.

I doubt Jon was only interested in Winterfell. He certainly was a little ambitious, but the whole relationship with Ygritte made him think of having a family, of raising kids of his own. Jon fights those feelings almost all the time. He wants to be like his father but he seems to be damning his life for this so called honor. I wonder if this refuse means a commitment with his principles (and therefore those of his father) or an escape of his inability to face his intimate fears. It's like he couldn't allow himself to be happy.

When making his decision he said that he had always wanted it. I think he was talking about Winterfell because he didn't always want children based on his argument with Benjen in AGoT.

"He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him...It was food he needed, prey...His mouth began to water with the thought."

In ASOS he reflected how Robb told him that he would never have Winterfell.

"That morning he called it first. "I'm the Lord of Winterfell!" he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time...Robb had answered, "You can't be the Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born. My lady mother says you can't ever be the Lord of Winterfell."

"You can't be the Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born, he heard Robb say again. And the stone kings were growling at him with granite tongues. You do not belong here. This is not your place."

In ADWD, he said that he was Lord of Winterfell and then killed Robb in a nightmare.

"I am the Lord of Winterfell," Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled..."

I think Robb wanted Jon to have it because his trueborn brothers were dead so Jon was the only brother that he had left. IA that he didn't want his enemies to have it so that is why he wanted to disinherit Sansa. He cared for Jon so he'd rather him have it than some distant relation.

It was when he thought of Val that he thought of having a family. He said that he hadn't dared of dreaming of a son since he joined the NW but Val could give him children. He wanted to name the child Robb. I think this was a secret wish for him but he really wanted Winterfell whether he had children or not.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

But, of course, does anyone have a doubt about Jon wanting Winterfell? He always wanted it but he also grew up knowing it would never be his, so he feels guilty when he thinks about it, especially after Robb's death. When Stannis offered Winterfell to him, he only rejected it cause it implied the sacrifice of the Old Gods. The nightmare where he kills Robb is just that, a nightmare (some people think is a prophetic dream, the ice black armor and so on, for me it isnt) and he also killed Ygritte, Qhorin and Donal Noye that I can recall, IMO it was just Jon feeling guilty of their deaths, him screaming "I'm the Lord of Winterfell" wasn't so much different to me than when Arya screamed "Winterfell" while fighting against the Lannister's men when they were going north with Yoren.

[Ladywhiskers]

Regarding the incest:

1) As far as we know, Daenerys cannot carry to full-term, so their children won't be affected.

2) They weren't raised knowing that they were related. That is a huge factor, and it's the reason that Arya/Sansa and Jon won't hook up even though they might only be cousins.

A political marriage between Jon and Dany would be highly effective. They would essentially -- and symbolically -- unite the North and the South. From a literary perspective it also makes the most sense. Which other character is significant enough for Daenerys? And what about Jon? Val is a background character at best, and I can't think of another character significant enough for him to fall in love with.

If you don't ship Dany x Jon, then that's absolutely fine, and I'm inclined to agree with you. But it's almost guaranteed to happen.

Or to start to happen, and then go horribly, horribly wrong. I don't think GRRM is one to write away from conflict. And like I said, he hasn't the least idea he could be related to her, and Maester Aemon isn't around to tell him. She doesn't know, either. The odds of someone informing either of them that R+L=J before he hooks up with his aunt, are extremely remote.

[Ladywhiskers]

arg. Sorry, double post.

[ARYa_Nym]

I think him saying I'm the Lord of Winterfell was a reference to the game he played with Robb where he said the exact same thing and Robb told him that would never happen.