[ADWD SPOILERS] Hope for Jon + Dany

[tze]

Dany using torture once does not make her an evil, wicked person. Using it as a constant method of punishment would make me worried.

See, this is something I've never seen clarified. The Sons of the Harpy attack in darkness and leave their calling card in blood. Dany tells Xaro "“They scrawl on walls by night and cut the throats of honest freedmen as they sleep. When the sun comes up they hide like roaches." The whole reason for torturing the wineseller and his daughters was supposedly because Dany's men couldn't catch anyone in the act. Yet later, without any discernable new shift that I can see, Dany says,

The Brazen Beasts had taken dozens of the Harpy’s Sons, and those who had survived their capture had yielded names when questioned sharply … too many names, it seemed to her.

(This is after the incident with the wineseller, it should be noted.) So where exactly are these "captives" coming from? And why is Dany so sure they're Sons of the Harpy, when clearly she doesn't trust their confessions, she never mentions the Brazen Beasts announcing that they've apprehended any of the Sons prior to this (or after this), and there's no indication the Sons' attacks have begun occuring in daylight, or really that these guys have ever been caught in the act?

My general point being, why on earth do we assume Dany only ordered torture once? If the incident with the wineseller and his daughters was an isolated case . . . why then does she then speak about the Shavepate torturing other people?

And actually, they were 100% guilty. Dany wanted 163 Great Masters, and that's what she got. In her first ADWD chapter she even sends their bones back to their homes. "But what if they were just slaves dressed up omg!!!!" If they were, I think one of her advisors such as Skahaz would have told her -- particularly as it would have benefited him.

100% guilty of what? Being Great Masters? This isn't inherently a crime in Dany's Meereen, or else men like Hizdahr and the Shavepate would have both suffered some sort of punishment (rather than Dany making Hizdahr a king). Dany said she wanted 163 Great Masters to die in exchange for the 163 slave children. She showed no desire whatsoever to discern who exactly had ordered those children's deaths. For all she knows, it was Hizdahr!

[Winter's Lady]

He was concerned but he had bigger concerns than what his sister (s) are going through. His immediate reaction was that she wasn't his sister anymore because he said his vows. This wasn't even the first time he said that. He asked himself in ASOS if Arya was ever really his sister. I think he did care but at the same time he's been distancing himself from his family for a while now.

I don't think we'll ever reach an agreement on this one, because I read all of this completely different than you. That's a thing I have come across several times over the last few days. It's all about perception and interpretation.

To me, he didn't distance himself, the fact that he brings them up again and again proves that to me. He is so tortured and controvoersial because he really cares about his family and wants to hold on, but he can't, so he is trying to talk himself into thinking that he doesn't care. That actualy shows the opposite imo. I don't know how to say this any better, sorry. Maybe I can't make myself understood the way I want.

Anyway, it's really late here and I have to get up very early, so good night. (dang, always when things get interesting)

[PatrickStormborn]

See, this is something I've never seen clarified. The Sons of the Harpy attack in darkness and leave their calling card in blood. Dany tells Xaro "“They scrawl on walls by night and cut the throats of honest freedmen as they sleep. When the sun comes up they hide like roaches." The whole reason for torturing the wineseller and his daughters was supposedly because Dany's men couldn't catch anyone in the act. Yet later, without any discernable new shift that I can see, Dany says,

(This is after the incident with the wineseller, it should be noted.) So where exactly are these "captives" coming from? And why is Dany so sure they're Sons of the Harpy, when clearly she doesn't trust their confessions, she never mentions the Brazen Beasts announcing that they've apprehended any of the Sons prior to this (or after this), and there's no indication the Sons' attacks have begun occuring in daylight, or really that these guys have ever been caught in the act?

My general point being, why on earth do we assume Dany only ordered torture once? If the incident with the wineseller and his daughters was an isolated case . . . why then does she then speak about the Shavepate torturing other people?

Thanks for the quote, I don't have enough time to trawl through the book myself. But I don't see any evidence that Dany ordered the torture.

100% guilty of what? Being Great Masters? This isn't inherently a crime in Dany's Meereen, or else men like Hizdahr and the Shavepate would have both suffered some sort of punishment (rather than Dany making Hizdahr a king). Dany said she wanted 163 Great Masters to die in exchange for the 163 slave children. She showed no desire whatsoever to discern who exactly had ordered those children's deaths. For all she knows, it was Hizdahr!

They were 100% guilty of being Great Masters, which is why Dany had them crucified. The Great Masters had the children crucified, and she punished them by killing a large amount of them. I don't particularly agree with "an eye for an eye", but there are people who do and I don't think less of them because of it. What's very telling is that Dany seems to regret this almost immediately.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

My general point being, why on earth do we assume Dany only ordered torture once? If the incident with the wineseller and his daughters was an isolated case . . . why then does she then speak about the Shavepate torturing other people?

Really good catch. I suppose though that since both of these are in one book, it's OK? But if it happens in another book, well ... honestly, I don't know. I'd write Jon off as soon as he tortured one person, flat. Notice that his method of execution is a single blow to the neck, and he even tells Slynt beforehand how to arrange himself to make it easier. He doesn't burn him or crucify him or torture him needlessly. Because he's not that sort of person. Thinking that you're crucifying or torturing or burning for "justice" doesn't make what you're doing any less despicable. And now as you've said it's clear that it was a pretty widespread, systemic thing in Dany's Meereen. Let's see if we get any outrage over it. I doubt it.

Just as a side note, I've done a lot of study and research on terrorism and counterinsurgency. Dany is doing pretty much the stupidest thing possible in Meereen. She's using torture, promoting an "us vs. them" mentality and trying to fight an insurgency by force. It can't be done that way. She should be thanking the Yunkai and the Qartheen and everyone else she's pissed off that they're forcing a showdown ahead of schedule because otherwise, she could be bogged down for YEARS in Meereen and have absolutely nothing to show for it. The only thing she's doing is solidifying the Meereenese in opposition to her and giving them a good reason, through her, ahem, repeated use of torture, to despise her and work that much harder to get rid of her. This stuff has happened before in our world. The invaders are almost always pushed out (Americans in Vietnam) or the invaders win but at such a high cost that it wasn't really even worth it (French in Algeria).

100% guilty of what? Being Great Masters? This isn't inherently a crime in Dany's Meereen, or else men like Hizdahr and the Shavepate would have both suffered some sort of punishment (rather than Dany making Hizdahr a king). Dany said she wanted 163 Great Masters to die in exchange for the 163 slave children. She showed no desire whatsoever to discern who exactly had ordered those children's deaths. For all she knows, it was Hizdahr!

Yes, this. I've said this again and again and again and again and it just doesn't get through: She doesn't know exactly who crucified the slave children. And makes absolutely no effort to learn.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Thanks for the quote, I don't have enough time to trawl through the book myself. But I don't see any evidence that Dany ordered the torture.

Are you kidding?

Either she herself ordered the torture or they tortured people without her knowledge. Either way it speaks terribly of her as a leader (leaders are always responsible for what their subordinates do, by the way) and I'm at this point kind of shocked that you keep defending it. She knew they were torturing people, whether she ordered it or not (and she ordered it once, it makes sense that if they did it again, it was with her blessing). If she disapproved of what they did, she made no effort to say so or tell them to use less harsh methods.

Dany. Tortures. People. Not "tortured." Tortures.

ETA: Actually, I take that back. Dany doesn't dirty her hands by torturing people. She has peons do it for her so she doesn't have to waste precious energy having to face what she wants done. Oh yeah, that's really going to endear her to someone like Jon, who was raised to do his own dirty work.

[ARYa_Nym]

I don't think we'll ever reach an agreement on this one, because I read all of this completely different than you. That's a thing I have come across several times over the last few days. It's all about perception and interpretation.

To me, he didn't distance himself, the fact that he brings them up again and again proves that to me. He is so tortured and controvoersial because he really cares about his family and wants to hold on, but he can't, so he is trying to talk himself into thinking that he doesn't care. That actualy shows the opposite imo. I don't know how to say this any better, sorry. Maybe I can't make myself understood the way I want.

Anyway, it's really late here and I have to get up very early, so good night. (dang, always when things get interesting)

Jon may have cared but there was an array of other issues that he cared more about. He never even got around to thinking about Sansa's well-being or her marriage. I think he felt guilt for having such a cold reaction to "Arya"s marriage and used the Mance opportunity to right his wrong. It was nagging at him because he knew he didn't react the right way imo.

Sam made a note of Jon becoming cold so I think he has been distancing himself but after a while the thought of what Ramsay would do to Arya became too much. It wasn't his initial reaction though.

[kephv]

Jon may have cared but there was an array of other issues that he cared more about. He never even got around to thinking about Sansa's well-being or her marriage. I think he felt guilt for having such a cold reaction to "Arya"s marriage and used the Mance opportunity to right his wrong. It was nagging at him because he knew he didn't react the right way imo.

I'm sure he did think about Sansa. It's just when he heard it was at the same time he learned about Robb's death, so it was probably a bit overshadowed by that. As for the way he reacted - he obviously cared a great deal but he just wasn't in the position to do literally anything about it, so he pushed it to the back until he saw a way to help.

[ARYa_Nym]

I'm sure he did think about Sansa. It's just when he heard it was at the same time he learned about Robb's death, so it was probably a bit overshadowed by that. As for the way he reacted - he obviously cared a great deal but he just wasn't in the position to do literally anything about it, so he pushed it to the back until he saw a way to help.

He didn't have any personal thoughts about Sansa or Tyrion in ADWD. He mentioned the marriage to Stannis but he never thought afterwards about how she was doing. The only other mention of her was when he ran through his memories of Winterfell in which he mentioned all of his siblings.

[Lady Octarina]

Thanks for the quote, I don't have enough time to trawl through the book myself. But I don't see any evidence that Dany ordered the torture.

That's an invalid argument; reminds us too much of those nazis that claimed Hitler knew nothing about the killing of jews.

He didn't have any personal thoughts about Sansa or Tyrion in ADWD. He mentioned the marriage to Stannis but he never thought afterwards about how she was doing. The only other mention of her was when he ran through his memories of Winterfell in which he mentioned all of his siblings.

Don't compare Sansa's situation with "Arya"'s - Jon liked Tyrion, possibly even trusted him, even though he was a Lannister. And he knows the way the Lannisters work; they wouldn't kill or severely hurt her, because she was an insurance, the heir to Winterfell as far as anyone knew. She was safe, he had nothing to worry about.

Now, "Arya". Jon was LC by then and his first priority was defending the realm against the army of ice zombies approaching. Arya is part of the realm, you know. You mentioned Sam saying Jon is now cold, but Sam is soft, he might have planned Jon's ascension but he's not leader material (I have to agree with his father on this one). Jon did what he had to do to keep the Watch going and protect anyone within his reach; there's nothing sinister in that. And like everyone else said, as soon as he saw an opportunity of aiding "Arya" he grasped it. And, honestly, didn't you ever had to make a though decision you felt disgusted about and fell in denial before admitting that something was really troubling you about it? It's not that uncommon, you know, even in a world with no fire or ice creatures.

[tze]

Thanks for the quote, I don't have enough time to trawl through the book myself. But I don't see any evidence that Dany ordered the torture.

Other than the fact that the Shavepate answers directly to Dany and only to Dany, he clearly told Dany the results of this torture, so obviously he wasn't hiding his actions from her, Dany obviously has knowledge of what he did because we hear about it in her POV, and nowhere does Dany express even the slightest hint that she's upset with the Shavepate's methods (only with the fact that she doesn't like the quality of information he's getting)?

Come on. She ordered it.

They were 100% guilty of being Great Masters, which is why Dany had them crucified. The Great Masters had the children crucified, and she punished them by killing a large amount of them. I don't particularly agree with "an eye for an eye", but there are people who do and I don't think less of them because of it. What's very telling is that Dany seems to regret this almost immediately.

So being a Great Master is a crime inherently worthy of crucifixion in Dany's eyes. That obviously explains why Dany . . . married a Great Master and made him King of Meereen, right? Cause being a Great Master is a crime in Dany's eyes? That makes no sense. She has no idea who was actually responsible for killing those children. Like I said: what if it was Hizdahr?

And Dany certainly doesn't regret this action "almost immediately". It takes a while to nail up 163 people (not that she did it herself, and hell, we don't even know if she stayed to watch throughout the whole thing, but still), and she indicates second thoughts "later", not during the time it took to nail up a large number of people. She doesn't feel like an avenging dragon when she actually has to look at (and smell) what she ordered done . . . but then she tells herself "it was just".

She has no idea if she actually punished the person or people who ordered the kids killed, she's just executed a large group of the murderer(s) social class instead of trying to find out who really gave this order, and this is what she thinks of as "just"?? I mean, imagine if she went to the Westerlands and announced that she wants a group of Lannister bannermen executed in retribution for the murders of Aegon/Rhaenys/Elia. She doesn't know which bannermen did the deeds (everyone else does, but Dany never asks them, so she never finds out about Gregor or Lorch), but she says she wants three of them killed because three of her family members were killed. She doesn't really care which particular bannermen did the deeds, because if you're attacked by a pack of wild dogs it doesn't matter which dog bites you, they're all as guilty, right? So she then kills Gawen Westerling, a squire in the service of House Marbrand, and an elderly knight of House Brax. All of them Lannister bannermen. Justice has been served and Dany has punished the people who killed Elia, Aegon, and Rhaenys, right?

Or say she told the Lannisters they had to hand over two people with the last name Lannister so she could avenge Aegon/Rhaenys/Aerys, because one member of the family ordered the deaths of Rhaenys and Aegon, another member of the family killed Aerys, so it's "just" to kill two Lannisters and just randomly assume she's gotten the parties responsible, right? And even if she specifically asks the Lannister family to hand over Tywin and Jaime, she should just assume she's been given Tywin and Jaime, rather than some random blond people, or even some random Lannisters from Lannisport, right?

If she did these things in Westeros we'd think she was an idiot. But that's basically exactly what she did in Meereen.

He didn't have any personal thoughts about Sansa or Tyrion in ADWD. He mentioned the marriage to Stannis but he never thought afterwards about how she was doing. The only other mention of her was when he ran through his memories of Winterfell in which he mentioned all of his siblings.

By the time he'd have gotten back to the Wall and found out all about Sansa, word would have begun spreading about how she'd already supposedly escaped King's Landing after playing a role in murdering Joffrey. He has no idea if she's alive or dead, or where she is if she's alive. But hey, everyone's saying she played a role in the plot to kill Joffrey, so from Jon's POV, Sansa probably seems to be doing okay for herself by this point.

[ARYa_Nym]

Don't compare Sansa's situation with "Arya"'s - Jon liked Tyrion, possibly even trusted him, even though he was a Lannister. And he knows the way the Lannisters work; they wouldn't kill or severely hurt her, because she was an insurance, the heir to Winterfell as far as anyone knew. She was safe, he had nothing to worry about.

Now, "Arya". Jon was LC by then and his first priority was defending the realm against the army of ice zombies approaching. Arya is part of the realm, you know. You mentioned Sam saying Jon is now cold, but Sam is soft, he might have planned Jon's ascension but he's not leader material (I have to agree with his father on this one). Jon did what he had to do to keep the Watch going and protect anyone within his reach; there's nothing sinister in that. And like everyone else said, as soon as he saw an opportunity of aiding "Arya" he grasped it. And, honestly, didn't you ever had to make a though decision you felt disgusted about and fell in denial before admitting that something was really troubling you about it? It's not that uncommon, you know, even in a world with no fire or ice creatures.

No comparison was being made. He didn't think personally think about her at all in ADWD. That has nothing to do with how he feels about the "Arya" situation. It doesn't matter if he likes Tyrion or if he thinks that the Lannisters will be good to their hostage.

Like I've said before he wasn't able to actually do anything but I think he owed her a little more than an immediate reaction to finding out that she was marrying someone like Ramsay to be well she's not my sister. The text said that he felt guilty so I don't think he thought that there was nothing wrong with what he did.

By the time he'd have gotten back to the Wall and found out all about Sansa, word would have begun spreading about how she'd already supposedly escaped King's Landing after playing a role in murdering Joffrey. He has no idea if she's alive or dead, or where she is if she's alive. But hey, everyone's saying she played a role in the plot to kill Joffrey, so from Jon's POV, Sansa probably seems to be doing okay for herself by this point.

Yes, he has no idea so shouldn't he wonder if she's alright? The running story is that she killed Joffrey then disappeared. I don't think he could think she was doing well if he had no idea where she went or what happened to her.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Other than the fact that the Shavepate answers directly to Dany and only to Dany, he clearly told Dany the results of this torture, so obviously he wasn't hiding his actions from her, Dany obviously has knowledge of what he did because we hear about it in her POV, and nowhere does Dany express even the slightest hint that she's upset with the Shavepate's methods (only with the fact that she doesn't like the quality of information he's getting)?

Come on. She ordered it.

Exactly.

Oh, and there's a reason she doesn't like the quality of information that the torture yields: Torture doesn't work. She can torture as many winesellers' daughters as she wants, but she's not getting squat out of them. Pull enough fingernails out of someone and they might tell you what you want to hear, but that doesn't make it true or good information.

And your analogy about Dany demanding a bunch of random Lannister bannermen is pretty good. One of the reasons I dislike the Slaver's Bay chapters is because it's hard to differentiate individual people. I can see where it'd be easy to blindly assume that killing 163 Grand Masters is appropriate and proportional justice, just because we don't think of them as individuals. But transfer this action to Westeros, where we are familiar with individuals within families, and apply the same situation, and it makes Dany look like a complete bloodthirsty idiot who just wants her pound of flesh, no matter who it comes from.

I am curious to see what new justifications come up for for Dany's systemic use of torture. I seem to remember something being said about how if she ever did it again, it would be an issue. Apparently not?

[Winter's Lady]

First things first, morning everyone *yawn*

Jon may have cared but there was an array of other issues that he cared more about. He never even got around to thinking about Sansa's well-being or her marriage. I think he felt guilt for having such a cold reaction to "Arya"s marriage and used the Mance opportunity to right his wrong. It was nagging at him because he knew he didn't react the right way imo.

Sam made a note of Jon becoming cold so I think he has been distancing himself but after a while the thought of what Ramsay would do to Arya became too much. It wasn't his initial reaction though.

I thik we have to make a difference between things he cared about, and things he cared about and was actually able to do something about. He couldn't help Arya, so he took te first chance to send her help, he didn't "right a wrong", he couldn't have done anything about it previously. That he still expressed guilt over it is still perfectly in line with his character, because that's basically his go-to reaction whenever something happens that he thinks was his fault, even if he couldn't do anything about it. Or do you personally blame him for Ygritte's or Robb's death for example? Because he was pretty hung up on himself about those.

Sam thought he was cold, yes. But just because Sam thought so doesn't make it true. We have the same situation form Jon's perspective in ADWD, and there it is clear to me that he is trying to act like what he thinks is right, he was just elected LC, and under a lot of pressure.

And I won't point out again why I think he wasn't distancing himself.

He didn't have any personal thoughts about Sansa or Tyrion in ADWD. He mentioned the marriage to Stannis but he never thought afterwards about how she was doing. The only other mention of her was when he ran through his memories of Winterfell in which he mentioned all of his siblings.

Hmm first, I don't remember having an initial reaction to that news from him, he only mentioned it later and what he may have thought of it in the first place is unclear.(if I'm misremembering please point me to the quote, I don't exactly have my books on the train with me) For all we know he could've thought that she was able to handle her own. And do you really need everything spelled out? Knowing his character it's perfectly clear to me that he cared about his siblings. He couldn't do anything about their situation at the time, so why would he constantly agonize about it, he still had a Wall to manage, castles to man and a king and wildlings to handle?

Oh well, I won't change your view of things, and you surely won't change mine. :dunno:

[ARYa_Nym]

First things first, morning everyone *yawn*

I thik we have to make a difference between things he cared about, and things he cared about and was actually able to do something about. He couldn't help Arya, so he took te first chance to send her help, he didn't "right a wrong", he couldn't have done anything about it previously. That he still expressed guilt over it is still perfectly in line with his character, because that's basically his go-to reaction whenever something happens that he thinks was his fault, even if he couldn't do anything about it. Or do you personally blame him for Ygritte's or Robb's death for example? Because he was pretty hung up on himself about those.

Sam thought he was cold, yes. But just because Sam thought so doesn't make it true. We have the same situation form Jon's perspective in ADWD, and there it is clear to me that he is trying to act like what he thinks is right, he was just elected LC, and under a lot of pressure.

And I won't point out again why I think he wasn't distancing himself.

When said that he had dark dreams and guilt this was before Melisandre had approached him about Arya and it was paired with him saying that he's a man of the NW now.

As for Robb I think he expressed guilt because he had a nightmare in which he killed Robb in it and then said that he was the lord of Winterfell. He wasn't happy that Robb was dead but at the same time he wanted Winterfell. His guilt there was understandable as were his desires for Robb's birthright.

With Ygritte he felt guilt over something he actually did do. He did leave her.

I thought Jon was clearly becoming colder and that he was distancing himself not just to his family but also to his friends. He sent many of his friends away and kept his enemies too close.Sam noted that Jon hadn't smiled in a long time and he tried very hard not to joke with Val. He later said that an LC has no friends.

It was noted in other threads that Jon differs from Ned because Ned used to have his lord face and his private face. Jon never took off his lord face when he became LC.

Hmm first, I don't remember having an initial reaction to that news from him, he only mentioned it later and what he may have thought of it in the first place is unclear.(if I'm misremembering please point me to the quote, I don't exactly have my books on the train with me) For all we know he could've thought that she was able to handle her own. And do you really need everything spelled out? Knowing his character it's perfectly clear to me that he cared about his siblings. He couldn't do anything about their situation at the time, so why would he constantly agonize about it, he still had a Wall to manage, castles to man and a king and wildlings to handle?

Oh well, I won't change your view of things, and you surely won't change mine. :dunno:

He didn't have to constantly agonize about it. It's just that he didn't think about it at all in the book. He does care about her in general because he mentioned her once along with his other siblings but he never seemed to wonder about what she was going through.

It doesn't bother me although I know it will seriously bother others but I wouldn't be surprised if he still remains friends with Tyrion after this. It's possible that he won't but I doubt it. If they do sever ties I think it will be because of something else.

[Winter's Lady]

Not going to respond to everything, I would only be repeating myself.

I thought Jon was clearly becoming colder and that he was distancing himself not just to his family but also to his friends. He sent many of his friends away and kept his enemies too close.Sam noted that Jon hadn't smiled in a long time and he tried very hard not to joke with Val.

It was noted in other threads that Jon differs from Ned because Ned used to have his lord face and his private face. Jon never took his off his lord face when he became LC.

I think we're looking at Jon from different perspectives. You're taking an outside approach, and yes, to other people he might come across cold. That doesn't mean he is.

He did send his friends away because he needed competent and trustworthy people in the other castles, where he could not influence things himself. I agree that it was a mistake to send them all away, because look where it got him, but it was still best for the Watch.

Val is a different matter. It's pretty clear that he is attracted to her(quite the opposite of cold), but again, he can't let himself care, because of his vows.

I tend to agree about the "lord face", he could have given himself a little rest, but it was all part of the whole "kill the boy" yada yada in his mind.

Now, let me give my view one last time before I drop this matter because I get tired of repeating the same stuff - he had to distance himself from family and friends because of his vows and responsibilities, that does not mean he didn't care or that he was cold. He had to shut off a lot of emotion to "get his job done".

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Again, it seems like Jon can't win. If he obsesses over his sisters and brothers and worries about them or attempts to help them, he's betraying his Night's Watch vows. But if he doesn't consider them enough, then he's cold and uncaring. I think the only reason that Arya's marriage struck a nerve where Sansa's didn't is because it was closer in proximity — Jon could in theory have gone to stop it if he'd been able — and to someone whom Jon knew to be a brutal, nasty bastard. It's not that Jon didn't care about Sansa; it was mostly that it was simply too far away for him to have been able to do anything about it. And if he had tried to do something about it or thought about it too much, people would be complaining. But when he didn't, that's worth complaining about, too. What do you want him to do?

[Arya Targaryen]

It was noted in other threads that Jon differs from Ned because Ned used to have his lord face and his private face. Jon never took off his lord face when he became LC.

Ned had his family and his lordship. Two different lives, two different faces. Jon has his lordship. He has no family.

What about his friends? Well, they are now his subordinates, not his friends. He must behave accordingly. And I don't Ned was more friendly towards Jory or others than Jon was towards Edd or Iron Emmett.

He did send his friends away because he needed competent and trustworthy people in the other castles, where he could not influence things himself. I agree that it was a mistake to send them all away, because look where it got him, but it was still best for the Watch.

I sort of agree, but if you think of it, it will become quite handy having all of his friends away when the rest of the Watch get themself killed by Tormund's people after Jon's death. I sort of fear for Leathers' and Satin's lives, but they may manage.

[ARYa_Nym]

Ned had his family and his lordship. Two different lives, two different faces. Jon has his lordship. He has no family.

What about his friends? Well, they are now his subordinates, not his friends. He must behave accordingly. And I don't Ned was more friendly towards Jory or others than Jon was towards Edd or Iron Emmett.

I don't think Ned ever tried to distance himself from Jory. He was a subordinate but they also developed a relationship where they were able to be close. I definitely got the impression that Jory was like family to him. I don't think Ned was like that with most of his staff though.

Jon made a conscious effort to not be close to anyone though which is a key difference.

Not going to respond to everything, I would only be repeating myself.

I think we're looking at Jon from different perspectives. You're taking an outside approach, and yes, to other people he might come across cold. That doesn't mean he is.

He did send his friends away because he needed competent and trustworthy people in the other castles, where he could not influence things himself. I agree that it was a mistake to send them all away, because look where it got him, but it was still best for the Watch.

Val is a different matter. It's pretty clear that he is attracted to her(quite the opposite of cold), but again, he can't let himself care, because of his vows.

I tend to agree about the "lord face", he could have given himself a little rest, but it was all part of the whole "kill the boy" yada yada in his mind.

Now, let me give my view one last time before I drop this matter because I get tired of repeating the same stuff - he had to distance himself from family and friends because of his vows and responsibilities, that does not mean he didn't care or that he was cold. He had to shut off a lot of emotion to "get his job done".

I think he made mistakes anyway concerning the NW. I think that was the point of both Jon and Dany's arc in ADWD though. Dany just made bigger mistakes and Jon's had a greater consequence.

I think I've said in each of my replies that he did care. I just emphasized his priorities.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think I've said in each of my replies that he did care. I just emphasized his priorities.

But why is it a problem that his priorities had more to do with the Watch than with his sisters? Isn't that kind of the point, that he was supposed to forsake his family obligations?

[Arya Targaryen]

Jon and Emmett:

“And what poor fool will get that choice command?”

“I am riding beside him.”

The look of mingled horror and delight that passed across Iron Emmett’s face was worth more than a sack of gold. “What have I done to make you hate me so, my lord?”

Jon laughed. “Have no fear, you won’t be alone. I mean to give you Dolorous Edd as your second and your steward.”

“The spearwives will be so happy. You might do well to bestow a castle on the Magnar.”

That doesn't sound like cold to me. And I don't think Ned was more friendly with Jory, ever.

Edd and Jon:

Jon watched him mop up a runny yolk with a chunk of bread. I t was strangely comforting to see Edd’s dour face again. “How goes the restoration work?” he asked his old steward.

“Ten more years should do it,” Tollett replied in his usual gloomy tone. “Place was overrun with rats when we moved in. The spearwives killed the nasty buggers. Now the place is overrun with spearwives. There’s days I want the rats back.”

“How do you find serving under Iron Emmett?” Jon asked. “Mostly it’s Black Maris serving under him, m’lord. Me, I have the mules. Nettles claims we’re kin. It’s true we have the same long face, but I ’m not near as stubborn. Anyway I never knew their mothers, on my honor.” He finished the last of his eggs and sighed. “I do like me a nice runny egg. If it please m’lord, don’t let the wildlings eat all our chickens.”

Out in the yard, the eastern sky had just begun to lighten. There was not a wisp of cloud in sight.

“We have a good day for this, it would seem,” Jon said. “A bright day, warm and sunny.”

“The Wall will weep. And winter almost on us. It’s unnatural, m’lord. A bad sign, you ask me.”

Jon smiled. “And if it were to snow?”

“A worse sign.”

“What sort of weather would you prefer?”

“The sort they keep indoors,” said Dolorous Edd. “If it please m’lord, I should get back to my mules. They miss me when I ’m gone. More than I can say for them spearwives.”

That's friendly enough as well. Ok I know it's Dolorous Edd :D