[ADWD SPOILERS] Hope for Jon + Dany

[Paola Graciano]

But, of course, does anyone have a doubt about Jon wanting Winterfell? He always wanted it but he also grew up knowing it would never be his, so he feels guilty when he thinks about it, especially after Robb's death. When Stannis offered Winterfell to him, he only rejected it cause it implied the sacrifice of the Old Gods. The nightmare where he kills Robb is just that, a nightmare (some people think is a prophetic dream, the ice black armor and so on, for me it isnt) and he also killed Ygritte, Qhorin and Donal Noye that I can recall, IMO it was just Jon feeling guilty of their deaths, him screaming "I'm the Lord of Winterfell" wasn't so much different to me than when Arya screamed "Winterfell" while fighting against the Lannister's men when they were going north with Yoren.

Yeah. You're both right. I knew he wanted that when he was a child and all of the rudeness coming from Robb kinda hurt him deeply. I didn't rememeber those lines ARYa_Nym posted. I just remembered some rivalry going on when they were children. The thing is I don't believe Robb loved Jon as a brother. They had a cordial relationship because Jon never expressed opposition. He wouldn't dare to do it. See how Robb acts totally arrogant with Theon when he complained about anything. I used to hate Theon but it came from a distorted view that Robb was a reasonable, lovely guy and he was not. He was as grey as any other character and Theon had all the reasons to hate him.

But I still think his meeting with Ygrittte opened his mind for the privilege of having someone by his side and even left heirs. He was a virgin! Obvioulsy his first sexual experience had a huge impact on his life. It was easier to be a celibate when he was giving up something he didn't know.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

I think him saying I'm the Lord of Winterfell was a reference to the game he played with Robb where he said the exact same thing and Robb told him that would never happen.

Maybe I missunderstood the meaning of your post, I thought you were implying that Jon killed Robb in the dream cause he told him he couldn't be the Lord of WInterfell.

I had to go before and left my previous post uncomplete. What I wanted to say is that when Stannis offered Jon Winterfell, Val wasn't decisive for Jon's choice, he barely knew her then. But they have got closer in ADWD, I'm not saying that Jon is in love with Val or her with him cause I don't think so but even though we haven't seen too many "direct" interaction between them both, Jon thinking offen about her and the advice she gave him about the free folk, seem to indicate that they have been frequently seeing each other.

[Paola Graciano]

Or to start to happen, and then go horribly, horribly wrong. I don't think GRRM is one to write away from conflict. And like I said, he hasn't the least idea he could be related to her, and Maester Aemon isn't around to tell him. She doesn't know, either. The odds of someone informing either of them that R+L=J before he hooks up with his aunt, are extremely remote.

Why would that be such a big deal? There are brothers fuckin' brothers and even fathers with daughters. There are many things against a possible realtionship between Jon and Dany but I don't think any of them has to do with incest.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

Yeah. You're both right. I knew he wanted that when he was a child and all of the rudeness coming from Robb kinda hurt him deeply. I didn't rememeber those lines ARYa_Nym posted. I just remembered some rivalry going on when they were children. The thing is I don't believe Robb loved Jon as a brother. They had a cordial relationship because Jon never expressed opposition. He wouldn't dare to do it. See how Robb acts totally arrogant with Theon when he complained about anything. I used to hate Theon but it came from a distorted view that Robb was a reasonable, lovely guy and he was not. He was as grey as any other character and Theon had all the reasons to hate him.

But I still think his meeting with Ygrittte opened his mind for the privilege of having someone by his side and even left heirs. He was a virgin! Obvioulsy his first sexual experience had a huge impact on his life. It was easier to be a celibate when he was giving up something he didn't know.

Yeah I get your point about Robb being just cordial to Jon cause he never saw him like a threat to his interests. I don't really know about Robb and the fact that he never had a POV makes it even more difficult to know what was really on his mind. He seemed to trust Jon when he wanted to make him his heir but I also think he loved him, I personally think that Arya and Bran were closer to Jon than the rest of the Stark kids but Robb would follow. I admit I didn't care about Robb so much in the books, it was the show that made me love the character, but they were just kids when Robb told that to Jon, he might as well be influenced by his mother that was the one who always saw Jon as a threat for her own children.

[David Selig]

Yeah. You're both right. I knew he wanted that when he was a child and all of the rudeness coming from Robb kinda hurt him deeply. I didn't rememeber those lines ARYa_Nym posted. I just remembered some rivalry going on when they were children. The thing is I don't believe Robb loved Jon as a brother. They had a cordial relationship because Jon never expressed opposition. He wouldn't dare to do it. See how Robb acts totally arrogant with Theon when he complained about anything. I used to hate Theon but it came from a distorted view that Robb was a reasonable, lovely guy and he was not. He was as grey as any other character and Theon had all the reasons to hate him.

I think you are reading too much into one comment by Robb made as a child, which wasn't that much of a big deal to begin with. Sure it was rude of Robb to say that Jon can't inherit Winterfell, but that was the truth, and children often say worse things all the time even to their closest friends.

Apart from that one mention, everything in the books indicates Robb and Jon were close and liked each other a lot. This for example from Jon's first days at the Wall "He missed his true brothers: little Rickon, bright eyes shining as he begged for a sweet; Robb, his rival and best friend and constant companion". "

We don't get Robb's PoV so it's harder to tell what here exact feelings were about Jon, but in the scene where they are saying goodbye when leaving Winterfell for KL and the Wall respectively, Robb seem a lot more than just cordial to me. He's worried how his mother's meeting with Jon n Bran's room went, he's quite relieved when Jon lied and said it was OK, he hugged Jon and talk about how this goodbye was harder than he expected, etc. Later on Robb picking Jon for his heir shows a lot of trust and respect, especially given that Robb knew it would cause some political problems given Jon's oath to the NW and that it would displease his mother a lot.

[ARYa_Nym]

Maybe I missunderstood the meaning of your post, I thought you were implying that Jon killed Robb in the dream cause he told him he couldn't be the Lord of WInterfell.

I had to go before and left my previous post uncomplete. What I wanted to say is that when Stannis offered Jon Winterfell, Val wasn't decisive for Jon's choice, he barely knew her then. But they have got closer in ADWD, I'm not saying that Jon is in love with Val or her with him cause I don't think so but even though we haven't seen too many "direct" interaction between them both, Jon thinking offen about her and the advice she gave him about the free folk, seem to indicate that they have been frequently seeing each other.

I was giving Paola Graciano the quotes where Jon spoke of Robb and Winterfell since she mentioned Tyrion's comment.

I think the conversations that were given to us were mostly small talk and she was gone for part of the time. I think they're still in that getting to know each other phase.

Anyways, on another note Jon was closest to Robb and Arya. This was part of why Theon and Jon didn't get along. Theon thought Jon was jealous of his relationship with Robb so I'm guessing they competed for his attention.

Oops, sorry then, I absolutely misunderstood your post :blush:

It's okay. :D

[Val the Wildling Princess]

I was giving Paola Graciano the quotes where Jon spoke of Robb and Winterfell since she mentioned Tyrion's comment.

Oops, sorry then, I absolutely misunderstood your post :blush:

[Paola Graciano]

I think you are reading too much into one comment by Robb made as a child, which wasn't that much of a big deal to begin with. Sure it was rude of Robb to say that Jon can't inherit Winterfell, but that was the truth, and children often say worse things all the time even to their closest friends.

Apart from that one mention, everything in the books indicates Robb and Jon were close and liked each other a lot. This for example from Jon's first days at the Wall "He missed his true brothers: little Rickon, bright eyes shining as he begged for a sweet; Robb, his rival and best friend and constant companion". "

We don't get Robb's PoV so it's harder to tell what here exact feelings were about Jon, but in the scene where they are saying goodbye when leaving Winterfell for KL and the Wall respectively, Robb seem a lot more than just cordial to me. He's worried how his mother's meeting with Jon n Bran's room went, he's quite relieved when Jon lied and said it was OK, he hugged Jon and talk about how this goodbye was harder than he expected, etc. Later on Robb picking Jon for his heir shows a lot of trust and respect, especially given that Robb knew it would cause some political problems given Jon's oath to the NW and that it would displease his mother a lot.

The bold part explains everything. Maybe they loved each other but at the same time there was an undeclared jealousy. So he could remember his brother as his best friend but he knew Robb would never share Winterfell with him. The courtesy and friendship were conditioned to Jon's submission. Of course it doesn't mean Robb was not honest about missing him. This is not a linear relationship and that's why we love the books, right? ;)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The bold part explains everything. Maybe they loved each other but at the same time there was an undeclared jealousy. So he could remember his brother as his best friend but he knew Robb would never share Winterfell with him. The courtesy and friendship were conditioned to Jon's submission. Of course it doesn't mean Robb was not honest about missing him. This is not a linear relationship and that's why we love the books, right? ;)

Rivalry is pretty natural to most siblings, whether they're full siblings or half-siblings.

[Light a wight tonight]

Later on Robb picking Jon for his heir shows a lot of trust and respect, especially given that Robb knew it would cause some political problems given Jon's oath to the NW and that it would displease his mother a lot.

The contents of Robb's will are matters for speculation.

[David Selig]

Robb told Catelyn he was choosing Jon for his heir, that got to count for something, even if he changed his mind later.

[Lord Godric]

Yeah. You're both right. I knew he wanted that when he was a child and all of the rudeness coming from Robb kinda hurt him deeply. I didn't rememeber those lines ARYa_Nym posted. I just remembered some rivalry going on when they were children. The thing is I don't believe Robb loved Jon as a brother. They had a cordial relationship because Jon never expressed opposition.

I don't buy that, sorry. We haven't seen anything in the text to suggest that there was anything but a genuine brotherly relationship between Robb and Jon. "Cordial" is how I would describe the relationship between Jon and Sansa where Sansa first and foremost saw Jon as their bastard brother. We are given one scene where they were children in which Robb made a remark probably planted into his mind by Catelyn, but despite Catelyn's hatred of Jon they maintained a very close relationship, and Robb eventually would defy his mother and make Jon his heir anyway (yes, I know it is not certain but Robb desired it regardless). I'm curious, besides the one remark about Jon not inheriting Winterfell, what suggest their relationship was merely 'cordial' and not brotherly.

[kephv]

him screaming "I'm the Lord of Winterfell" wasn't so much different to me than when Arya screamed "Winterfell" while fighting against the Lannister's men when they were going north with Yoren.

I think him saying I'm the Lord of Winterfell was a reference to the game he played with Robb where he said the exact same thing and Robb told him that would never happen.

Pretty much. Obviously he was hurt by that moment (it ties in with his whole resentment towards his bastardy issues) and it sends him into a bit indignant rage each time he has recalled it.

Of course that doesn't mean he really wanted to kill Robb; it was only a dream afterall, and things from the subconscious are brought up more strongly then.

Either way, it had an entirely different meaning than Arya using it as a battle call.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

Pretty much. Obviously he was hurt by that moment (it ties in with his whole resentment towards his bastardy issues) and it sends him into a bit indignant rage each time he has recalled it.

Of course that doesn't mean he really wanted to kill Robb; it was only a dream afterall, and things from the subconscious are brought up more strongly then.

Either way, it had an entirely different meaning than Arya using it as a battle call.

Of course, I know its a reference to that memory of Robb and him while they were children that still haunts him every time, but in the dream/nightmare, for me he was using it as a battle call while fighting alone the dead people on the Wall. And then after he screams, Robb appears again to remember him that he cannot be the Lord of Winterfell.

[Ghost714]

I don't buy that, sorry. We haven't seen anything in the text to suggest that there was anything but a genuine brotherly relationship between Robb and Jon. "Cordial" is how I would describe the relationship between Jon and Sansa where Sansa first and foremost saw Jon as their bastard brother. We are given one scene where they were children in which Robb made a remark probably planted into his mind by Catelyn, but despite Catelyn's hatred of Jon they maintained a very close relationship, and Robb eventually would defy his mother and make Jon his heir anyway (yes, I know it is not certain but Robb desired it regardless). I'm curious, besides the one remark about Jon not inheriting Winterfell, what suggest their relationship was merely 'cordial' and not brotherly.

I agree with this 100%

Great post!

I dont understand how anybody could think any different, both Jon and Robb loved each other as brothers, there was nothing "cordial" about it.

[Fire and Blood25]

Events in ADwD have threatened my hopes for the eventual triumph of Jon and Dany and their song of ice and fire. This is a desperate attempt to reconcile what has happened and salvage my hopes. I realize this sequence of events contain numerous presuppositions, but could it go like this?

1. The Lord Commander of the Night Watch is dead. He calls for Ghost...he feels only the cold...

2. Jon begins his Second Life as Ghost. Melisandre knows, she keeps him close.

3. Meanwhile - Barristan and Lemore/Ashara conspire to wed Daenerys and Aegon. This will be Dany's third treason-for love-betrayed by Barristan's love for Ashara.

4. Dany + Aegon + ? (Tyrion?) ride the dragons, conquering and uniting the 7 Kingdoms.

5. As he tries to rule, King Aegon VI becomes more like his grandfather, less like his father. Queen Daenerys comes to hate him.

6. With the Kingdoms united, it is time for the final battle, between Darkness and Light, Others vs. Man

7. King Aegon and Queen Daenerys take refuge at Dragonstone as the armies of the Others sweep across the realm.

8. Melisandre and GhostJon arrive at Dragonstone. Jon wargs into Aegon and....Voila'! Azor Ahai is reborn. Aegon has the sword Dawn in his hand as Jon takes his body. (Ashara brought Dawn from Starfall to give to Aegon). Jon plunges Dawn into the Red Priestess Melisandre and Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Hereos is reborn.

9. Queen Daenerys and King Jon-In-Aegon's-Body use dragon and sword to defeat the Others and rule together during the Eternal Spring.

THE END.

OK, I hear you laughing....but it could happen, right?

If Martin had 89 more books, he could manage to cover almost an half of that events...no, I think you are guessing wrong

[HenryPotter]

I don't see Jon and Dany. Dany may have many lovers but I reckon she may end up like Queen Elizabeth or Catherine... mother to her people with lots of men on the side.

I would like to see Tyrion end up with either Asha Greyjoy or any of the sand snakes. They're all sexy women (which is right up Tyrion's alley) but more than that, they are all intelligent and cunning just like him.

The surprise twist nobody will expect though is that Tyrion may end up with his original real wife --a new and improved Sansa Stark who may learn the art of subterfuge under Little Finger and may yet grow into a stronger individual later on.

[Paola Graciano]

I don't buy that, sorry. We haven't seen anything in the text to suggest that there was anything but a genuine brotherly relationship between Robb and Jon. "Cordial" is how I would describe the relationship between Jon and Sansa where Sansa first and foremost saw Jon as their bastard brother. We are given one scene where they were children in which Robb made a remark probably planted into his mind by Catelyn, but despite Catelyn's hatred of Jon they maintained a very close relationship, and Robb eventually would defy his mother and make Jon his heir anyway (yes, I know it is not certain but Robb desired it regardless). I'm curious, besides the one remark about Jon not inheriting Winterfell, what suggest their relationship was merely 'cordial' and not brotherly.

Of course there was love in their relationship, but not only. When I say that they got along well as long as Jon submitted himself to the condition of bastard son with no rights, what makes me think like that is the fact that Robb was extremely rude to Theon when he was already a grown up man. Jon had a much more humble attitude which protected him as a shell from Robb's arrogance. But there's no POV of Robb himself to evaluate his feelings. We don't have enough information about him to clarify these little details. That's just my interpretation, not a statement.

[Revan Baratheon]

I agree with this 100%

Great post!

I dont understand how anybody could think an

y different, both Jon and Robb loved each other as brothers, there was nothing "cordial" about it.

Yea i second this! U wont make someone ur "cordial" with ur heir to the entire fucking north! That too against deneth..catelyn's wishes :P