[ADWD Spoilers] Victarion

[Duskfire]

I found it weird that Euron gave Victarion the Horn. Putting that much power in a persons hands who obviously hates your guts is a bit weird. Surely the Croweye has a plan.

[Été]

I found it weird that Euron gave Victarion the Horn. Putting that much power in a persons hands who obviously hates your guts is a bit weird. Surely the Croweye has a plan.

Presumably Euron didn't intend for Victarion to fall in with a Red Priest who could read Valyrian runes. I did think "what a fucker" when Moqorro told Vic that the horn has been bloodbound to Euron the whole time.

He probably expected Vic to land at Meereen and blow the horn, intending to bring the dragons to heel (and sacrificing one of his men in the process), but because the horn is bound to Euron, they'd bugger off to find him on the other side of the world and leave Vic standing there like a chump. Maybe even flame him, if Euron was really lucky.

[Calibandar]

I did think "what a fucker" when Moqorro told Vic that the horn has been bloodbound to Euron the whole time.

Moqorro did not say that though, so what makes you think this is a certainty or even implied?

[Sidonie]

I think Victarion and Tyrion could make a great team. Tyrion did well when he had Bronn with him, and Victarion is far more religious, less clever, and has sibling issues of his own. They both have that in common, definite younger child syndrome. Victarion could gain an ally that could one day rule Casterly Rock, knows alot about dragons, and could help him steal two dragons.

Victarion is like a cross between Bronn and Shagga son of Dolf.

Tyrion + Victarion= EPIC WIN! With NINE Gods! (The Drowned God, Rh'llor and Tyrion's Seven!)

[Été]

Moqorro did not say that though, so what makes you think this is a certainty or even implied?

I've just gone back and reread; I've made quite a big leap there. What he actually says is, "Who blows the hellhorn matters not. The dragons will come to the horn's master. You must claim the horn. With blood." You're quite right, he never says the horn is already bound to Euron or anyone else.

I'm sticking with my speculation, though. Given that Euron has sorcerers of his own, I would expect him to have a relatively good understanding of the horn's magic before he sent it off with Victarion. It seems entirely in keeping with Euron's character to send his brother into the dragon's lair with a weapon that will only benefit Euron.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Like him?

The perfumed boys he wrapped in chains and threw into the sea. They were unnatural creatures, and the ship smelled better once cleansed of their presence.

Then he burns the seven prettiest female slaves on a fishing ketch.

He's a murderous fanatic. A badass for sure, but I don't think like enters into it.

[iamthedave]

I've just gone back and reread; I've made quite a big leap there. What he actually says is, "Who blows the hellhorn matters not. The dragons will come to the horn's master. You must claim the horn. With blood." You're quite right, he never says the horn is already bound to Euron or anyone else.

I'm sticking with my speculation, though. Given that Euron has sorcerers of his own, I would expect him to have a relatively good understanding of the horn's magic before he sent it off with Victarion. It seems entirely in keeping with Euron's character to send his brother into the dragon's lair with a weapon that will only benefit Euron.

I think you're still fundamentally right. The suggestion is Euron's it's master now, and Victarion will need to reclaim the horn from him by fighting him for it.

Also, Euron's no fool. He KNOWS Victarion hates him, he's not going to knowingly hand him a weapon that would let Victarion easily exact vengeance. Might just be me, but dragons + naval combat = a rather unbalanced equation for the side with the dragons.

[littlespider]

Like him?

The perfumed boys he wrapped in chains and threw into the sea. They were unnatural creatures, and the ship smelled better once cleansed of their presence.

Then he burns the seven prettiest female slaves on a fishing ketch.

He's a murderous fanatic. A badass for sure, but I don't think like enters into it.

This is the mystery, is it not? He's a badass AND a murderous fanatic AND he does awful horrible badbad things. But for some reason, I dunno...he's just ... so cool. I mean, he hates monkeys. And he gets his hand half burned off and probably was all BURN ME MORE MOTHAFUCKAH.

But the Anglo-Saxon and Viking heroes I was comparing him to? They are BAMFs but from what I've read (and my knowledge is a little thin on the Viking front) none of them did anything like what's quoted above. So we could possibly say that Victarion is more Viking than even the Vikings were.

[dunbarbw]

Like him?

The perfumed boys he wrapped in chains and threw into the sea. They were unnatural creatures, and the ship smelled better once cleansed of their presence.

Then he burns the seven prettiest female slaves on a fishing ketch.

He's a murderous fanatic. A badass for sure, but I don't think like enters into it.

And yet Stannis murders people in the name of his god and people still like him. The difference? One is from a family who attacked the Starks/North, the other is not.

If you ask Mance Rayder then people follow "the man." Who do you think Dany's armies are going to follow after Victarion wipes out the blockade around Meereen and makes safe the city? Bet I know who the Shavepate and Brazen Beasts will back.

[Wouter]

And yet Stannis murders people in the name of his god and people still like him. The difference? One is from a family who attacked the Starks/North, the other is not.

Stannis isn't liked very much, either in the books or on the boards. And the reason for that are his sacrifices. Even so, Stannis has yet to burn complete innocents; all the men who he actually had burned had committed a crime of some sort, at least in his eyes. He didn't actually burn Edric and pardoned Davos for spiriting him away, so he kinda wanted to be stopped from actually doing it.

And while Stannis is very harsh, his bad points are partially compensated by his better ones; he is fighting the Others and fighting Ramsay and co. For the smallfolk, he would actually be a good king as he respects the laws and does not condone his lords or men-at-arms raping randomly, nor did he approve of Axell Florent's proposed attack on Claw Island. He would also have dealt with unscrupulous advisors like Littlefinger and Varys, and kept the realms spending in check. In other words, Stannis actually could have made an effective king if the circumstances had been slightly better.

Victarion is a mindless brute, rapist, wife beater, slaver, serial murderer and hypocrite. He will no doubt defeat the slaver fleets, but I wonder what will happen next. He may get defeated by the Volantene fleet, if the slaves in that fleet turn on their masters (so Dany could use their ships instead of the ironborn ones). He may attempt to get Dany's dragons (or one or two of them, anyway); if he succeeds he will take Dany by force and rape and beat her bloody, in all likelyhood - that is what Victarion does with women, after all (unless he burns them alive). If he ends up working with Tyrion and co to tame the dragons instead, he will lilely be dejected by Dany as a suitor and he will then probably end up getting burned unless he decides to bend the knee to her (unlikely, given his attitude; bowing to a girl!???).

I think the main question is if Dany will move her army through the Iron Fleet (who will then be subject to her, with or without Victarion) or through the Volantene slave fleet (who would have rebelled against their masters, at the instigation of the red priests). I got the impression Moqorro knows what will happen to Victarion and it isn't anything good for him, but the priest is laughing at him behind his back.

[Happy Ent]

I've just gone back and reread; I've made quite a big leap there. What he actually says is, "Who blows the hellhorn matters not. The dragons will come to the horn's master. You must claim the horn. With blood." You're quite right, he never says the horn is already bound to Euron or anyone else.

I think we can safely assume that the horn is currently bound to Euron. He probably read the manual, apparently the instructions are printed on the hull of the device.

But now Victarion can read the manual as well. He can now perform whatever magic is needed, unbinding the horn from Euron and making him look like a very sad little squid.

(But this reveal finally makes Euron’s actions look less stupid. After all, he couldn’t really foresee his brother developing any kind of insight into the mechanics of this thing.)

[the Scorpion Knight]

Victarion is a mindless brute, rapist, wife beater, slaver, serial murderer and hypocrite.

I would rather say he's a simple mind, and a product of his culture ( keep in mind i don't apologise parts of his behavior,)

- he HAD TO beat his wife to death by law

- he isn't a Gregor clegane(given a choice he would rather do something else but it's his job and duty)

- if it were after him the plumm women wouldn't be sold ( he despises slavery and his eyes thralldom is more like serfdom)

- Where's he a hypocrite? like a said in his eys being a salt wife is somthing diffrent than a pleasure-slave; a thrall better than a slave

[the Scorpion Knight]

Victarion is a mindless brute, rapist, wife beater, slaver, serial murderer and hypocrite.

I would rather say he's a simple mind, and a product of his culture ( keep in mind i don't apologise parts of his behavior,)

- he HAD TO beat his wife to death by law

- he isn't a Gregor clegane(given a choice he would rather do something else but it's his job and duty)

- if it were after him the plumm women wouldn't be sold ( he despises slavery and his eyes thralldom is more like serfdom)

- Where's he a hypocrite? like a said in his eys being a salt wife is somthing diffrent than a pleasure-slave; a thrall better than a slave

[Ten Towers]

I can't help but feel that all the love for Victarion stems from the fact nobody else in Dance does anything.

Victarion's story moves along at a fine clip, and he makes swift progress. It's a bit of a breath of fresh air in a book laden down with navel-gazing.

Victarion's chapters definitely have a lot of momentum.

[Brienne the Beauty]

- he HAD TO beat his wife to death by law

I don't think so. I think he just *thought* he had to do it - think here of the "honour killings" that we hear so much about in the news. These men are not forced to kill their female relatives by any law - they just *think* they have to do it - for honour. Victarion thought that was the only way he could get his honour back.

Personally I think he'd have done better to kill Euron, kinslaying or not! But he was too cowardly to take that step. Better to kill a defenceless woman than a man who could fight back, and whose death would cause a lot of trouble for Victarion, right?

[Winterfelon]

Thing is Victarion has what Stannis doesn't: charisma.

Victarion is - on the face of it - a brute, but he's a brute with at least half a brain.

He's all the bad things people say he is, but he is at least troubled by it (hating Euron etc) and unlike Theon he waits until he has a realistic chance before making his play.

That said, he's a supporting character and is surely gonna bite the big one in one or two books time. :(

[Sean T. Collins]

To me, the fact that Victarion takes no pleasure in his crimes and atrocities makes him worse than the likes of Gregor Clegane, Ramsay Bolton, Vargo Hoat and so on. With them, there's at least a pleasure-principle incentive that we can understand -- they enjoy being cruel. What's Victarion's excuse?

And the extravagance of the Mountain, the Bastard, and the Goat's cruelty is, in a perverse way, an acknowledgment of the personhood of their victims, since to take such pleasure in inflicting pain and taking life, you on some level have to acknowledge that their lives have value. Victarion, by contrast, simply sees no value in the lives of his victims, from the male prostitutes he dumps overboard to the female prostitutes he lights on fire to the run-of-the-mill victims of his raiding and reaving. Even in beating his wife to death, his primary emotions seem to be self-pity and anger at his brother rather than any consideration of how his wife felt as he pounded the life out of her.

People might as well be furniture to Victarion Greyjoy, and the whole time he's using them he's complaining about how uncomfortable he is.

[Wouter]

I don't think so. I think he just *thought* he had to do it - think here of the "honour killings" that we hear so much about in the news. These men are not forced to kill their female relatives by any law - they just *think* they have to do it - for honour. Victarion thought that was the only way he could get his honour back.

Personally I think he'd have done better to kill Euron, kinslaying or not! But he was too cowardly to take that step. Better to kill a defenceless woman than a man who could fight back, and whose death would cause a lot of trouble for Victarion, right?

Exactly, Victarion is very brave against people who are in a far inferior position to his own when it comes to fighting, but he's a coward when faced with his brother - and he lost against Stannis when the fleets were evenly matched.

He may "have to" kill Daenerys for his "honour" soon enough. Can't have people laugh at him, can we?

The Ironborn are going down IMO. Without the iron fleet to support them, Euron's forces will get mauled by Redwyne's war galleys I think. Leaving that opening for Theon and Asha to invalidate the King's moot, just like in that historical example Tristifer Botley told Asha about, and then attempt and salvage something by submitting to Stannis, and later on Dany I guess.

[BFG]

Like him?

The perfumed boys he wrapped in chains and threw into the sea. They were unnatural creatures, and the ship smelled better once cleansed of their presence.

Then he burns the seven prettiest female slaves on a fishing ketch.

He's a murderous fanatic. A badass for sure, but I don't think like enters into it.

:agree:

I think you're still fundamentally right. The suggestion is Euron's it's master now, and Victarion will need to reclaim the horn from him by fighting him for it.

Also, Euron's no fool. He KNOWS Victarion hates him, he's not going to knowingly hand him a weapon that would let Victarion easily exact vengeance. Might just be me, but dragons + naval combat = a rather unbalanced equation for the side with the dragons.

The wand horn chooses the wizard hornblower

[Bar Keep]

But now Victarion can read the manual as well. He can now perform whatever magic is needed, unbinding the horn from Euron and making him look like a very sad little squid.

Doesn't Victorian need to kill the person to horn is currently bound to in order to bind it to himself? or am I thinking of a different book.

This would also help explain why Euron didn't want to go on this little trip.