King_In_The_North Posted July 20, 2011 Author Share Posted July 20, 2011 Even if R+L=J, Robb is still the eldest. Lyanna persumably died at the the ToJ while giving birth to Jon, and that was after the sack of KL, after lifting the siege of Storm's End. It was after the War was done, while Ned knocked up Cat at the very beginning of the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faint Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Isn't the letter irrelevant in so far as Manderly knows that Rickon is alive and can inform the other Northern lords of such? Indeed, he can inform Jon of that fact as well, at which point, I don't think Jon even considers the idea of being "King of the North." This doesn't preclude him from being Rickon's regent though, which is a far more likely option in my view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antillean Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 That is not an issue because legitimizing places those in the line of succession after the trueborn children (Aegon IV the Unworthy who legitimized his bastards - they were placed after the trueborn children of Aegon).Are you sure about that? Wasn't the rebellion caused because some of the highborn bastards were older and so they thought they should have priority in succession? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrackerNeil Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 I wouldn't be so sure that letter is what you think it is. Jon Snow has already turned down an offer of legitimization; would it be dramatically interesting to present it to him once more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark3 Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 I think Wylas was there to sign the letter, but not quite sure if he told his father about it.Wylis was not there to sign the letter - he was prisoner in Harrenhal by then. He has the rearguard of Roose's host when they are heading North to the Twins. Gregor Clegane falls up them while they are crossing the river and the rearguard is wiped out, and Wylis captured and brought to Harrenhal.I think the only witnesses to the letter are:1. Dead or captured (at the Red Wedding)2. Bolton and his men3. Maege and Galbart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfrenchy Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 see this is the kind of stuff that makes me hope jon didn't die. it's really cool that some people come back as undead.. but they are undead, which is really weird. i'd rather have a warm blooded heart is pumping jon snow/stark as king instead of a atypical zombie jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Rayne Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Are you sure about that? Wasn't the rebellion caused because some of the highborn bastards were older and so they thought they should have priority in succession?Maybe the Blackfyre rebellion set a precedent? Because unless legitimized bastards come after trueborn children regardless of age, Ramsay would have no motive to murder Roose's future progeny (besides being a murdering psycho that is). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Wasn't the rebellion caused because some of the highborn bastards were older and so they thought they should have priority in succession? The legitimated Daemon Blackfyre was much younger than his brother Daeron Targaryen. He argued however that he took precedence over Daeron because according to him Daeron was a bastard born of the affair of Daeron's mother and Aemon the Dragonknight and that their father intended him to succeed because he gave Daemon the sword of the Targaryen kings, Blackfyre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tozka Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Are you sure about that? Wasn't the rebellion caused because some of the highborn bastards were older and so they thought they should have priority in succession?- The rebellion was caused because Daemon Backfyre loved Princess Daenerys but the King had her married to the Martells to bring Dorne into the realm- The rebbellion was caused because Daemon Backfyre was seen as a strong and charasmatic warrior, while Darion was seen as weak and feeble King.- And there were those around Daemon who were strongly advising him to rebel (like Bittersteel and Quentyn Ball the Fireball)- Also his father Aegon IV gave Daemon the hereditary sword worn by all the Kings of Westero since Aegon I, which some saw as a sign that Aegon IV named him his heir.- Also a pretext for the rebellion was the rumour that had circulated that Daeron was not Aegon's son, but had been born of a tryst between Queen Naerys and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suldog Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 I would love to see the Will show up, but I don't think it's a gamechanger in any way. Other posters have said this - Jon already had a chance to be legitimized and become lord of Wintterfell via Stannis. He turned it down because of his vows. AND Jon would never, ever usurp his brothers once he knew they were alive. AND Robb is dead and most of the Lords who signed the Will are dead or have sworn to another Lord. For all those reasons, I don't think it matters.Personally though, I would have liked to see Jon get the Will and realize that Robb wanted him to be the King and heir. That Robb had legitimized him, and trusted him with the throne, and all the Lords of the North agreed. I think it would have been nice for Jon to know that - not because it matters to the plot but because it would matter to Jon. Now, it really doesn't matter, since I don't think Unjon/Azor Ahai/TPTWP/the Kwisatz Haderach will care. I could possibly see the Will being some kind of rallying point for Jon if/when he gathers forces to fight the Others - the true King of the North, along with the true heir to the Iron Throne (Dany/Aegon et all) allying the realms of men to fight the others, but to be honest there is going to be so much going on by then that who knows what will be important and what won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tozka Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Now, it really doesn't matter, since I don't think Unjon/Azor Ahai/TPTWP/the Kwisatz Haderach will care. You are assuming things ... I hope we get Jon POV! I hope Jon does not change, not in his core. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreamcatcher Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 He'd never accept if he'd still be Lord Commander, this much is known. The letter is "waiting" for Jon to revive and then he'll be able to accept, because he'd want to retake Winterfell. So I think we'll hear more of the letter in the next book.Edit: If he doesn't change. I hope he doesn't, it'd be weird to have a Lady Stoneheart-like Jon. I'd rather he die than experience this fate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suldog Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 You are assuming things ... I hope we get Jon POV! I hope Jon does not change, not in his core.Oh, I hope so. I really hope so. But where the Starks are concerned, I'm not optimistic. Why should something good happen to one of them, if something bad can happen instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antillean Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Alright, clearly I didn't know anything about the Blackfyre Rebellion. Thanks for the clarification.Though, I still ask: how do we know that legitimising puts the former bastards after the trueborns? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faint Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 I wouldn't be so sure that letter is what you think it is. Jon Snow has already turned down an offer of legitimization; would it be dramatically interesting to present it to him once more?Well, whenever we see Jon again, it cannot be said he will be essentially the same person as he was before. He will most likely have no Night's Watch to go back to. Presumably, his only sure allies now are Val, some of the Wildings, some of the brothers of the Night's Watch, and strangely enough, Melisandre. And he may even start listening to the later, who'll probably advocate that he amass as much power as he can -- especially if she starts correctly deciphering her visions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon AS Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Though, I still ask: how do we know that legitimising puts the former bastards after the trueborns?As far as I know we don't. My impression is that it is a very simple process: the child in question is considered a full trueborn one, with all that entails.The reason that Daemon Blackfyre wasn't the heir to the throne even after being legitimised was that he was younger than Daeron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya's Cat Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 I may be alone in thinking this, but I think it's possible Robb's will had a provision concerning Arya. When he presents the will to his bannermen to be signed, he mentions Bran and Rickon being dead and Sansa being married to a Lannister. He doesn't say, "And Arya is missing and most likely dead." If he included her in the will, he would be doing right by his mother, who brought up Arya during their dispute over succession, without affecting his desired outcome (as he believes his sister to be dead).It might be interesting if Westeros history repeats itself in a fashion, with Stark women fighting over Winterfell. Then again, Rickon might show up and make the whole question moot. I wonder if the North would take Robb's will over a "trueborn" male heir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xanrn Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Bolton doesn't know about the Will unless someone told him.It was signed before Robb's host met up with Roose's host. The Blackfish was there.The elder Manderly son doesn't know either, he was taken by Gregor. Before the signing.So1) The Blackfish knows.2) Maege and Galbart who are on seperate ships each eith a copy.3) Edmure iirc.4) All the Northman survivors/prisoners at the Twins.Also I disagree Galbart/Maege both easily had enough time to make it too atleast Stannis if not to the Wall.Ramsay took the Moat early in the book, wiped out the Ironborn and buggered off too Winterfell apparantly not even leaving a Garrison.The Ironborn are pretty much gone from the shores, so either could have sailed around and landed at the Motte or Bear Island.Both could have easily slipped out of the Neck following the Boltons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King_In_The_North Posted July 20, 2011 Author Share Posted July 20, 2011 Actually, Robb left Brynden at the Twins and gave him command of the Riverlords and their armies, and instead had Galbart Glover to command his outriders. The Blackfish wasn't there, and persumably doesn't know, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The King's Foot Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 GRRM doesn't need the will to get Jon out of the NW, if the Jon-has-died-but-will-be-rezzed theories are correct, he no longer is a member, as the vow explicitly states Night gathers, and now my watch begins, it shall not end until my death Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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