Huge Blast in Oslo

[The Iceman of the North]

720 Squadron is located at Rygge airbase (not that far from Oslo), and they have several helicopters available, including the Bell 412SP, which is suitable for Delta.

Yes, but are they on constant stand-by?

[Arya The Assassin]

Yes, but are they on constant stand-by?

I'm not sure, but after the bomb explosion in Oslo, I think they should've been on full alert.

[Arya The Assassin]

I found this news release from Reuters, which sheds some light on the response time:

Leaky boat slowed Norway police access to island

A quote from the article (my emphasis):

Sponheim said Sunday his previous estimate was "a bit high" and defended his special anti-terror unit's decision to travel some 45 km to the scene by road instead by helicopter."It was faster going by car," he said, "because we would have had to get a helicopter from the base down south and that would have taken longer."

He said the only helicopter available to the Oslo-based unit was parked 50 to 60 km south of the capital at Rygge airport.

Critics within the police have long complained that the "Delta" anti-terrorism unit is short of transport capacity.

[Ser Aardvark]

I'm not sure what you're talking about here?

I agree that the Utøya response time should have been improved [1], but counter-terrorist units were present in Oslo after the attack and the prime minister was taken to a safe, undisclosed place.

Ah didn't know that CT forces whisked away the PM quick. That's good to know but Norway's CT has a good reputation (not as good as Finland's tho when it comes to Scandinavian countries)so I was more surprised when I didn't hear about that tidbit.

[1] Delta has their own helicopter and could probably have flown directly to the island (it's only 40 km from their HQ in Oslo), and cut down the response time significantly. In situations like this, it's very important to stop the killer as soon as possible and I think a IARD (Immediate Action Rapid Deployment) tactic is called for. I'm not sure why the helicopter wasn't used, but it could be that some of Delta's resources weren't available due to the bombing attacks in Oslo. If that's the case, I don't want to be too hard on them, but I think that it should've been possible to request air transport (Royal Air Force) to the island nonetheless. Overall, I think the Delta soldiers themselves are doing a good job, but unfortunately the police didn't have the jurisdiction, firepower or qualified personell to employ a IARD tactic (the police always sends in the Deltas first if they feel the situation is too dangerous).The police has been criticized for their response time, so this issue will definitely be discussed in the days and weeks ahead.

It seems rather surprising they didn't have their own organic aerial transportation and had to use a ferry that was clearly not equipped for what they needed. From what I understand the reason the boat started leaking was their equipment was too heavy for it, not that it was in disrepair. If the PD in Oslo is responsible for Utoya, they have a lot to answer for, considering they got caught with their pants way down. It took them two minutes from their arrival on the island to arrest Breivik so the time span between their acknowledgement of the problem to then is on them.

Don't get me wrong, I understand they can't instantly teleport from one place to another and just looking at the area around Oslo on Google Maps tells me it's a tactical nightmare. However, when you're responsible for an area that includes numerous islands not having a helicopter that is LESS than 50-60k or a properly equipped boat on hand at all is not a far cry from incompetent.

[Arya The Assassin]

Norwegian newspapers have published articles about the ammunition and possible weapons used. A lot of this information doesn't come as a big surprise for those who've read the manifest, though, since the type of ammunition, the purchase of weapons, etc. is described in his manifest.

A surgeon at one of the Norwegian hospitals said that hollow point bullets (expanding "dumdum" bullets) were used. These bullets are illegal in warfare, because they can cause tremendous tissue/organ damage, but in Norway they're required by law for big game hunting (increases the chances of stopping the animal more quickly, or the chances of a faster kill). Needless to say, the horrible internal injuries caused by these bullets made the surgeon's task much more difficult.

Anders legally purchased a Ruger Mini 14 semi-automatic rifle with a customized trigger, after a failed attempt to purchase an AK-47, grenades and AP bullets in Prague.

[Arya The Assassin]

Ah didn't know that CT forces whisked away the PM quick

It's not the primary task of CT-units to secure the PM. The PMs own security forces, police and the military take care of that.

It seems rather surprising they didn't have their own organic aerial transportation and had to use a ferry that was clearly not equipped for what they needed.

They do have helicopters, but the closest available/suitable helicopter was situated on Rygge airbase, about 60-80 Km south of Oslo (not sure of the exact distance). I think the Deltas should've had easier and faster access to suitable airborne transportation.

From what I understand the reason the boat started leaking was their equipment was too heavy for it, not that it was in disrepair

I believe this was their first attempt at reaching the island. They had to wait for a more suitable boat.

If the PD in Oslo is responsible for Utoya

No, they're not primarily responsible for Buskerud, which is another county. But a critical look at what happened and how things could've been improved is definitely in order, at least in my opinion.

[Padraig]

Its about a universal standard of justice.

Pretty sure that doesn't exist. We can all agree that a particular crime is heinous without agreeing on the appropriate response. And as I said, there is no truly proper response.

I'm sure Norway will deal with this as best it can.

[KAH]

Talked with my dad about Utøya today.

I hadn't realized (stupidly, as he used to be active for Labour back in the day), but he attended the youth camp there in 1970, so it has been very strange and horrible for him to see what has happened there, a paradise turned into hell, as the prime minister said... :frown5:

[Sturn]

However, when you're responsible for an area that includes numerous islands not having a helicopter that is LESS than 50-60k (away) or a properly equipped boat on hand at all is not a far cry from incompetent.

You could be correct, but there may be other issues preventing them from having a helicopter or boat instead of calling them incompetent - money jumps to mind. Not all regional police departments can afford a helicopter, fuel, licensed pilots, etc.

Googling makes me think the police of Norway are all nationalized and just divided into regional "departments". Someone tell me if this is right/wrong. If this is the case (there aren't any local police funded by small towns such as in the US), then it looks like the national government of Norway does all of the funding for its police. With 27 "Regional Districts" perhaps its just not in the budget to give each one a helicopter and tactical boats. Thus, a response from a helicopter 50k away is the best they could do, grabbing one from a district that has one becuase of a larger population base, etc.

Edit: It also looks like the district of Buskerud, where I believe the incident happened, is around 100 km long. So, the regional department may have actually had such a helicopter, but in such a large area to cover it was still 50k away. Also, the local department did have boats, just not one that could carry all of the gear safely for the special team that responded from someplace else.

[The Iceman of the North]

Edit: It also looks like the district of Buskerud, where I believe the incident happened, is around 100 km long. So, the regional department may have actually had such a helicopter, but in such a large area to cover it was still 50k away. Also, the local department did have boats, just not one that could carry all of the gear safely for the special team that responded from someplace else.

Why would a district like Buskerud, with barely 250,000 inhabitants need a police helicopter for?

[Sturn]

Why would a district like Buskerud, with barely 250,000 inhabitants need a police helicopter for?

I never said they must have one. I stated that even if they had one, it is such a large district (land mass), which could explain the 50k distance mentioned above when a poster thought they would be incompetent for not having a chopper close.

As for only 250k, many (most?) cities in the US that size that have a helicopter upon their police force. There are a large number of reasons, especially in areas with rugged terrain and bodies of water. There is a small city nearby where I live of 120k population that has a helicopter - 1/2 the population and only a small sliver of the land mass of Buskerud, and very flat.

[Andriy Czarchenko]

As for only 250k, many (most?) cities in the US that size that have a helicopter upon their police force. There are a large number of reasons, especially in areas with rugged terrain and bodies of water. There is a small city nearby where I live of 120k population that has a helicopter - 1/2 the population and only a small sliver of the land mass of Buskerud, and very flat.

Just to show how different some things are. Finland as a country has no police helicopters AFAIK.

[Andystoteles]

We´re in no way equipped to deal with this kind of thing in scandinavia. An occasional nut-job pops up once in a while and does some crazy shit, but this is just too much...

And speaking of crazy shit. The media should probably think about why they feel the need to go with the "muslim terrorist group" theory after 5 minutes. Blond and blue eyed people named Anders seems to be responsible for the most horrible things around here.

I should probably go and change my name, don´t want to have anything in common with that asshole.

[baxus]

And speaking of crazy shit. The media should probably think about why they feel the need to go with the "muslim terrorist group" theory after 5 minutes. Blond and blue eyed people named Anders seems to be responsible for the most horrible things around here.

also, why they switched from "terrorist" to "madman" the moment it bacame clear the guy is not muslim.

[Sturn]

also, why they switched from "terrorist" to "madman" the moment it bacame clear the guy is not muslim.

Can you point me to the examples that did this (seriously)? Looking at Fox News (website) currently (considered conservative* in the US) the top story has, "terror suspect", in the first sentence. Huffington Post (considered liberal*) currently has the label, "Mass Killer" in their title story.

I'm completely serious in asking for examples, but didn't notice this happen anywhere on TV or online myself. Due to the mass of media I'm sure I missed it?

*I know, I know, both up to debate and interpretation, but I tried to search an example each of left/right.

[Horza]

I noticed it in the A(ustralian)BC's coverage - I'll do a Lexis-Nexis on the weekend and see if there was a pattern or just a few cases.

[brook]

Can you point me to the examples that did this (seriously)? Looking at Fox News (website) currently (considered conservative* in the US) the top story has, "terror suspect", in the first sentence. Huffington Post (considered liberal*) currently has the label, "Mass Killer" in their title story.

I'm completely serious in asking for examples, but didn't notice this happen anywhere on TV or online myself. Due to the mass of media I'm sure I missed it?

*I know, I know, both up to debate and interpretation, but I tried to search an example each of left/right.

Horza posted this earlier in the thread http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/terrorists_attack_oslo/P20

[Horza]

The NYT makes it explicit

OSLO — A lone political extremist bombed the government center here on Friday, killing 7 people, the police said, before heading to an island summer camp for young members of the governing Labor Party and killing at least 80 people.

[...]

Initial reports focused on the possibility of Islamic militants, in particular Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami, or Helpers of the Global Jihad, cited by some analysts as claiming responsibility for the attacks. American officials said the group was previously unknown and might not even exist.

There was ample reason for concern that terrorists might be responsible. In 2004 and again in 2008, the No. 2 leader of Al Qaeda, Ayman al-Zawahri, who took over after the death of Osama bin Laden, threatened Norway because of its support of the American-led NATO military operation in Afghanistan.

Brevik is not a Muslim, ergo he is not a terrorist. Work that one out. :shocked:

[Andriy Czarchenko]

Glenn Greenwald on saturday about that very subject.

[elmis]

What kind of a newspaper is the Jerusalem Post? Are these types of editorials/views normal for papers in Israel?

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Editorials/Article.aspx?id=230788