[ADWD Spoilers] Dear Jon

[Sivin]

I, personally, hope that Jon is dead and stays dead. I hate that fucker, it should have been him who Ramsay maimed instead of poor Theon... :crying:

[Sasha Steelsong]

Yeah the way I see it at least one more the the stark kids has to die. I dont think it'll be Rickon or Sansa. Bran already lost his legs, and hes with the Children. Hes gonna live it through no matter what(The george weasley rule) so it comes down to Jon and Arya. One of them wont make it I dont think.

But if hes dead people will be shocked. Really shocked. Itd be awesome

Jon or Arya making it through the series and Jon being dead now are two very different things. I personally don't think any more Starks need to die, but even if they do I don't think any are dying now because at this point we are heading towards everything starting to come together. There would litterally be no point to Jon's entire journey for him to die here. Shocked does not always equal awesome, and this is one of those cases I believe.

[Maithanet]

Personally, I think the idea that he survived the stabbing is ludicrous without some sort of magical cop out. The first cut on the neck was sufficient to cause dizziness and loss of feeling almost immediately. That sounds like a mortal wound. The second was a stab to the stomach. The third was a stab in the back. From those, he was unconscious within 10 seconds (less?) of when he was first stabbed. That has to mean "fatal blood loss imminent". Plus, as he's blacking out, they are still stabbing him.

So the question becomes will he either remain alive through magic or be resurrected somehow? And given the trajectory of this story, and GRRM's comment, I think the answer is definitely yes. Which strikes me as unfortunate. I've never particularly liked Jon, and frankly he was making some atrocious decisions in this book.

If he dies, I suspect things will really go to hell at the wall, with the NW, queensmen and wildlings all coming to blows. That would allow the Others to waltz right past the wall. Which would be a pleasant advancement to the overall plot, which hasn't done much advancing of late. If that's the way GRRM wants to go, I would support it fully, but I doubt it. A few too many clues indicate Jon's coming back.

Which is a shame, I remember when GRRM was willing to ingloriously kill characters we care about. And don't give me Quentyn, nobody cared about him.

[Anshel]

Jon or Arya making it through the series and Jon being dead now are two very different things. I personally don't think any more Starks need to die, but even if they do I don't think any are dying now because at this point we are heading towards everything starting to come together. There would litterally be no point to Jon's entire journey for him to die here. Shocked does not always equal awesome, and this is one of those cases I believe.

With you again!

I think Jon may very well end up dying (for keeps) before the series ends, but at this point, I really think it's too early. A great deal has been built up around Jon, and for him to die now doesn't really make narrative sense.

Plus, I think the whole "but GRRM loves to shock!" aspect is more in favor of Jon being alive, in this case. The most shocking deaths we've had (in my opinion -- Ned, Cat and Robb) have left us with absolutely no question as to whether or not they survived. (I don't count UnCat as being alive, or truly Catelyn Stark, for that matter.) GRRM didn't pull any punches with them. He didn't end the books with their deaths -- he put their deaths close to the end, and then brought us past them so we could see the repercussions and let that shock really strike deep.

My guess is the reason he left Jon on a cliffhanger is because that's the way his "death" is shocking in this book. If we see the chapters beyond that -- his resurrection, or him warging into Ghost, or some indication that his death won't be permanent -- then it loses its shock value. Hence, the cliffhanger.

I mean, hey, I could be totally wrong, but that's the way I've been seeing it.

[Anshel]

Which is a shame, I remember when GRRM was willing to ingloriously kill characters we care about. And don't give me Quentyn, nobody cared about him.

I sort of hate the idea of killing a character purely for the sake of shocking people. And I don't think GRRM has ever actually done that. His deaths have been shocking, but they've always served a purpose.

If killing Jon here serves a purpose, then that's fine; personally, I think he won't be dead now because it would render a great deal of build-up and mystery surrounding him obsolete. (For instance -- why have so much mystery surrounding his parentage if it's not ever going to come into play or be relevant to the story?) Will he die for good? Quite possibly. But I don't think just yet.

[Maithanet]

I sort of hate the idea of killing a character purely for the sake of shocking people. And I don't think GRRM has ever actually done that. His deaths have been shocking, but they've always served a purpose.

If killing Jon here serves a purpose, then that's fine; personally, I think he won't be dead now because it would render a great deal of build-up and mystery surrounding him obsolete. (For instance -- why have so much mystery surrounding his parentage if it's not ever going to come into play or be relevant to the story?) Will he die for good? Quite possibly. But I don't think just yet.

I'm not looking for shock value. It's a matter of stakes. Part of what makes GRRM's novels so strong is knowing the dangers that the various characters are facing, and that their bad decisions can lead to their downfall and death. This was illustrated well in books 1 and 3.

But when Jon's bad decisions lead to his death in book five, we simply have to assume that in book 6 he'll be back anyway, and that death will be only a setback for him. It really robs the narrative of it's suspense if all the main characters have plot armor.

[RedEyedGhost]

I also think the corpses in the wall will come into play somehow...

Personally, I think the idea that he survived the stabbing is ludicrous without some sort of magical cop out. The first cut on the neck was sufficient to cause dizziness and loss of feeling almost immediately. That sounds like a mortal wound. The second was a stab to the stomach. The third was a stab in the back. From those, he was unconscious within 10 seconds (less?) of when he was first stabbed. That has to mean "fatal blood loss imminent". Plus, as he's blacking out, they are still stabbing him.

His blackout could be a result of his subconscious warging to safety, because as an untrained warg he doesn't have the same level of control that Varamyr possessed.

[memmorio]

I don't really understand the high amount of distaste that the character of Jon Snow is getting. I understand that he is being impulsive at the end of the book but what's really wrong with that? The Night Watch of old I think is no longer a valid model to go forward with. The Night Watch is supposed to protect the real from things beyond the Wall. But everything happening in the realm at the moment is making that particularly difficult for that to happen. The Realm needs to get settled out so that a clear chain of support can emerge. Wildlings really aren't the enemy at this point anymore either. They are as terrified of what's coming as anyone on the Night Watch and the prejudice on both sides has no validity to begin with.

[Akhôrahil]

I don't really understand the high amount of distaste that the character of Jon Snow is getting. I understand that he is being impulsive at the end of the book but what's really wrong with that? The Night Watch of old I think is no longer a valid model to go forward with. The Night Watch is supposed to protect the real from things beyond the Wall. But everything happening in the realm at the moment is making that particularly difficult for that to happen. The Realm needs to get settled out so that a clear chain of support can emerge. Wildlings really aren't the enemy at this point anymore either. They are as terrified of what's coming as anyone on the Night Watch and the prejudice on both sides has no validity to begin with.

I agree - no-one else would have done an even remotely as good a job of it. Can you imagine how badly any of the other commander candidates would have mishandled Stannis, or the Wildings? Was Jon careless not to have an escort and bring Ghost with him everywhere? Maybe, but he doesn't know he's in a novel the way we do. And if people inside the watch wanted him dead (or could be mind-controlled), there's not much he could have done about it. If not the Ceasar-stabbing, then an arrow from a longbow, or poison in his food, or a push off the wall, or...

[variance]

I don't really understand the high amount of distaste that the character of Jon Snow is getting. I understand that he is being impulsive at the end of the book but what's really wrong with that? The Night Watch of old I think is no longer a valid model to go forward with. The Night Watch is supposed to protect the real from things beyond the Wall. But everything happening in the realm at the moment is making that particularly difficult for that to happen. The Realm needs to get settled out so that a clear chain of support can emerge. Wildlings really aren't the enemy at this point anymore either. They are as terrified of what's coming as anyone on the Night Watch and the prejudice on both sides has no validity to begin with.

The thing is, the Night Watch doesn't resemble anything of what the Night Watch originally was. It is described as something noble that many a knight served in. Now it is nothing but criminals and outcasts. The Wall wasn't built to protect against wildlings, but was built to protect against the Others. I think Jon had a more noble view of what the NW should have been. He also understood that all those wildlings would reinforce the Others once they died.

[Colder Hands]

throw me in with the lot who think that he will be reborn ahor azai

[Tomacatawata]

I don't think you can't Warg anymore after your main body was dead. That's why that guy in the prologue didn't just warg into a wolf and then find something else to warg into while his body died

Here's what I think is going to happen. The Wildings freakout after they find out about Jon and kills the ENTIRE NIGHTS WATCH and a few of Stannis's men. Bowen went on and on and on about how they're outnumbered and surrounded on all sides and they'd be doomed if the Wildlings attacked. Nothing more ironic than a self fulfilling prophecy. Jon is going to be seriously injured for the rest of the next book, and then die after convincing someone or another to do something.

[Zeke]

The raven from Jon 12:

He rose and dressed in the darkness, as Mormont's raven muttered across the room. "Corn" the bird said, and, "King" and "Snow, Jon Snow, Jon Snow". That was queer. The bird had never said his full name before, as best Jon could recall.

The myth of the Corn King.

Most narratives operate according to the basic structure whereby an initial state of well-being or at least equilibrium is upset and then, with difficulty, restored. So it is no surprise when we see this plot-skeleton in The Lion King. But the film has strong resonances of a more specific myth, that of the Corn King, brought to our attention a century ago by Sir James Frazer in his monumental work The Golden Bough. Deep in the race, Frazer explained, is the belief that the king carries within himself the life and fertility of the land he rules. As such he is a living god. He may be called upon to give his life in a time of famine so that his blood may fertilize the fields anew. (Other movies that make good use of this myth are The Wicker Man and Eye of the Devil.)

The Corn King myth underlies the practices of various primitive peoples and appears in mythology under the names of Adonis, Attis, Osiris, Baal, Tammuz, and Bran the Blessed. The wounding and healing (or the death and resurrection) of the god/king represents (and is believed actually to facilitate) the renewal of vegetation in the Spring after the death of plants in the winter.

So Jon dies as winter begins I suspect he won't "rise" again till spring.

[variance]

So Jon dies as winter begins I suspect he won't "rise" again till spring.

Spring is the end of the series.

[Zeke]

Yep. That's my point. He won't be "resurrected" until the last book. In the meantime he'll be, well, a ghost. Or Ghost, rather.

[variance]

Yep. That's my point. He won't be "resurrected" until the last book. In the meantime he'll be, well, a ghost. Or Ghost, rather.

It's not the last book. It is the literal end of the series. The last book is a Dream of Spring. As in, spring hasn't arrived. The finale of the the last book and the series itself is spring.

[Zeke]

I hadn't realized these books had already been published. Where can I lay my hands on them?

Sarcasm aside a "Dream of Spring" could also refer to a dream inspired by Spring and not necessarily a dream of spring yet to come. And, yes, Jon's resurrection may not occur until nearly the very end of the last book as a harbinger of spring. Get used to Jon as direwolf. I suspect that's how we'll be seeing him.

[variance]

I hadn't realized these books had already been published. Where can I lay my hands on them?

Sarcasm aside a "Dream of Spring" could also refer to a dream inspired by Spring and not necessarily a dream of spring yet to come. And, yes, Jon's resurrection may not occur until nearly the very end of the last book as a harbinger of spring. Get used to Jon as direwolf. I suspect that's how we'll be seeing him.

Uh, it would be kind of pointless to have a whole novel where the threat of winter is over and the Others are gone. I mean anyone should be able to tell the direction this series is heading.

[Greg B]

Uh, it would be kind of pointless to have a whole novel where the threat of winter is over and the Others are gone.

Well, the situation in Meereen will still need to be resolved.

[variance]

Well, the situation in Meereen will still need to be resolved.

I literally laughed out loud.