Videogames 'R' Us

[Tyrellius]

-.-

You mean I have to install the Catwoman stuff, then start all fucking over again?

Thats fucking pants.

[ICE CROW]

One must take into account the claim that Gamestop (and other dedicated video game retailers one assumes) are only profitable because of the used game (and hardware) side of their business. They make bugger all margin on new products, and that's selling at the MSRP. So, kill the high margin used game market and you kill the dedicated bricks and mortar video game shop. Is that a good thing? Maybe, but it does employ a few people. With a game on disc developers need publishers, publishers need distributors, distributors need retailers. It's a symbiotic relationship and every link in the chain needs to be profitable. If retailers need to sell used games at a high margin to remain viable then clearly there's an uneven distribution of profit margin on new games. The Lion's share probably taken by the publisher. Or there's insufficient profit margin to make every link profitable.

With Batman:AC on PS3 (and other games with Online Pass) does Online Pass work across multiple PS3s if the original user's PSN is activated on those other PS3s? My Nephew's PSN is activated on my PS3 and vice-a-versa. So if my nephew logs in to his PSN on my PS3 can we get the Catwoman content without paying the extra $$? PSN games can be downloaded and played on up to 5 activated PS3s, so hopefully this holds true for online pass. Some people have 2 of the same console in their house and they'll want to be able to play a game on either console, it would be pretty shitty to have to pay online pass to get the full game experience on one of the consoles in that situation.

Uncharted 3 has Online Pass for online multiplayer. It's a pity that. I was hoping first party titles would remain untainted by online pass.

What your asking about the PSN pass, across multiple PS3's is a damn good question. im really not sure, i hope they address that soon, or check Playstations site and see what you can find.

[Shryke]

While I can agree that buying used at Gamestop is generally a rip-off, since the choice is $55 for a used copy, or $60 for a new one - saving $5 isn't worth having to listen to them try to sell me pre-orders for games that I have no interest in. But there's no reason that video game publishers should get some special exception from the second hand market. If I choose to sell my games, then I am perfectly within my legal rights to do so. And if I want to sell them to Gamestop and get 1/3 of what I could have than if I had sold on Ebay or Amazon, then that's my problem.

No one is saying you can't. Just understand that every time you buy a used game, that money goes only to the retailer. The people who are actually making these games don't see a penny.

Which is true of any used product, but videogames don't lose value when they are sold used, unlike virtually everything else.

The lower price point of a used game is, essentially, a lie. It's only due to expectations (people expect used shit to be cheaper) and it's a marketing tactic to get you to buy used so the retailer can pocket all the profit.

Honestly, all that their crusade against used games does, is make me less inclined to purchase their games at full price. Online pass? Fuck 'em. Multiplayer is probably going to be dead in a 2 months anyway. I'll buy it next year for $20. But I can almost accept the online pass garbage. I'd be perfectly fine with it if they offered a pass-less version for $50. Or knocked the regular price down to $50, and then online multiplayer passes as DLC content, no matter if it's a new or used copy. Lock out single player elements? I'm just going to pass on it entirely. Looks the Batman games are going on the ignore list. Too bad, since I was considering picking up AA to see if these were any good.

You don't need to buy anything but the game ... so long as you buy it new. That's the way all these "pass" things work (or any I've ever heard of).

Then there's the gaming industries inconsistency with Gamestop in the first place. They rage about them selling used games, and not getting any cut of it. Then go on to give them exclusive pre-order content. Really, they need to make up their minds.

Uh, just becaues they don't like Gamestop doesn't mean Gamestop doesn't have them half-bent over a barrel. Gamestop or it's ilk are pretty much the only game in town now for game-only stores, so they kinda have to play nice. That doesn't mean they want to.

Gamestop has been doing what they do for a long time. It didn't bother them 5 or 10 years ago. This isn't going to stop them either. Supposedly, they're just giving out DLC codes with used copies of AC. And they're still going to make a fine profit from the game by doing so.

It's always bothered them. They've just finally found a way to attack the problem.

They want a solution to the used game market? Make better games. Personally, I don't trade in good games since I'll probably want to play them again at some point. But (relating back to the previous discussion) too much stuff these days are single play-through experiences, or multiplayer with a 1-3 month expiration date. No incentive to keep them. No incentive to buy them really, since a rental would probably suffice.

Since when is the used game market based on quality?

[Shryke]

Look in a way i can understand why the game manufacturers are doing this, that doesn't mean i agree with it. They say the used game industry is hurting them, are they loosing some potential money, sure. But heres the thing, the used game industry has also made these companies, loads of cash. How many of us have bought a game used, loved the hell out of it and then when the sequel came out, we bought brand new or even fucking pre ordered the game. Batman Arkham City has sold 4.6 million copies in 7 days, it took Arkham Aylum i think at least 1 to 2 months to accomplish this. It sold be cause it was a quality game, that was the sequel to a quality game. Quality sells plain and simple, When Arkham Asylum came out it was a sleeper hit. Besides hardcore Batman fans and some truly hardcore gamers, it took awhile for it too catch on in a massive way. I personally know 6 people, who bought Arkham Asylum used, who pre ordered Arkham City. I myself bought Bad Company 2 used and was forced to buy the online pass, to get some of the additional content, buying that game used has guaranteed that im buying Battlefield 3 new, just not yet.

The used game industry, has helped game developers since the first consoles. They just see now, with means of digital distribution, more ways of cashing inon their games. Like i said i can undrstand it from a making money stand point, but i don`t agree with it. All any of us have to do is thin of games we bought used, that we loved so much it forced us to buy the sequeal to that game new, or even other games from the same developer, hoping for the same quality experience.

How has it helped them? They see no money from it. And anyone who buys the first game used is much more likely gonna also buy the second game used (especially now when used games appear within like a week) They've already shown they see no premium from buying a new game vs an old one.

You can argue about how much money it loses game developers/publishers/etc, but it's a straight loss with little gain for them.

One must take into account the claim that Gamestop (and other dedicated video game retailers one assumes) are only profitable because of the used game (and hardware) side of their business. They make bugger all margin on new products, and that's selling at the MSRP. So, kill the high margin used game market and you kill the dedicated bricks and mortar video game shop. Is that a good thing? Maybe, but it does employ a few people. With a game on disc developers need publishers, publishers need distributors, distributors need retailers. It's a symbiotic relationship and every link in the chain needs to be profitable. If retailers need to sell used games at a high margin to remain viable then clearly there's an uneven distribution of profit margin on new games. The Lion's share probably taken by the publisher. Or there's insufficient profit margin to make every link profitable.

You only kill the boutique game store. It's not like Best Buy or the like is gonna disappear.

[Ixodes]

Catwoman's content is around 10% of the storyline, and needs to be installed before starting the game. I think that her role is pretty essential to the story. I personally would not recommend playing the story without her.

Fucking hell!!! I'm still pretty early into the game so I guess I'm better off restarting after I download Catwoman. 10% of the game, huh? Damn.

Arkham City is the first game I've bought at release in many, many years. Asylum was awesome and this one, thus far, is even better.

[ICE CROW]

How has it helped them? They see no money from it. And anyone who buys the first game used is much more likely gonna also buy the second game used (especially now when used games appear within like a week) They've already shown they see no premium from buying a new game vs an old one.

It does make them money, not on the initial sale of the used game no. But in the long run, they can and do profit, from used game sales. I'm gonna use my self and my own purchases, as a basis for this. I bought Mass Effect for $20 bucks used, when it was still $40 brand new. I fell so in love with the game, that i preordered the speacial edition of Mass Effect 2 for 79$. Now on top of that $79 purchase, i also bought every single piece of DLC for ME2. Can't remember how much that all came to, for discussion sake, lets say all DLC for ME2 was 40$, so thats $120 total i spent on ME2. Now i will be buying ME3 special edition, which should cost the same $79, i won't talk about possible money i would spend on it's DLC sine it doesn't exist yet. So from my $20 purchase of a used Mass Effect, Bioware will have made $200 dollars off me, all because i bought that used copy they didn't see any money from. I also did the exact same thing with Gears of War and several other titles. In fact i have been doing this since nintendo in the 80's and when ever i bought a good used game, i almost always bought the sequel brand new and was more open to purchasing other titles from that company, hopin for a similar enjoyable time.

Yes the companies aren't seeing any initial revenue, from used game sales. But in the long term they do. They know this as well, but they would rather make as much money as possible. It's understandable it's business. But to attempt to totally kill the used game industry would be foolish, even some Analysts and even some industry vets have said similar things. There is money to be made, they just want to make more of it.

[Shryke]

Or, if the used copy didn't exist, you instead buy the new copy of ME1 for $40 (or wait till it gets a bit cheaper and buy it then) and then everything else falls out the same way.

Except this time, Bioware et all make money off the first sale.

Your idea only makes happens if you'd only have bought ME1 cause it was used and wouldn't have bought it later when the price dropped further and if you decide that you wouldn't buy ME2 used. I don't see the intersection of these 2 things being so common as to overshadow the lost sales from every used copy sold.

Also, it's funny you use Mass Effect since ME1 and ME2 have different publishers so ME1's publisher just got fucker royally in your sitaution. :P

[ICE CROW]

Also, it's funny you use Mass Effect since ME1 and ME2 have different publishers so ME1's publisher just got fucker royally in your sitaution. :P

I know, as more of an Xbox fan, couldn't believe Microsoft let, Bioware slip from their grasp.

[Relic]

I see nothing wrong with the selling of used games. What i dislike is how little gamestop offers you for them and how much some of their used software costs. If game publishers are worried about gamestop they should get more creative. Offer a buy back/trade in for dlc system or something. Team up with amazon, do what gamestop is doing, and keep some of the profit. I dunno but if you paid me to come up with some ideas i probably would.

[Shryke]

I see nothing wrong with the selling of used games. What i dislike is how little gamestop offers you for them and how much some of their used software costs. If game publishers are worried about gamestop they should get more creative. Offer a buy back/trade in for dlc system or something. Team up with amazon, do what gamestop is doing, and keep some of the profit. I dunno but if you paid me to come up with some ideas i probably would.

What do you think they are doing?

The new trend is "Free DLC code in each box!". You buy it used, it costs 10 bucks for that DLC or the like. That's what all these codes boil down to. That's what people are complaining about and why I was pointing out what the publishers/developers are up to.

And the reason they pay you so little and charge you so much for used games is because that's their entire business model. They are, literally, a pawn shop. The difference between what they pay you for your used game and what you pay for a used game is pure 100% profit for them. And they keep that difference nice and fat.

[Relic]

What do you think they are doing?

The new trend is "Free DLC code in each box!". You buy it used, it costs 10 bucks for that DLC or the like. That's what all these codes boil down to. That's what people are complaining about and why I was pointing out what the publishers/developers are up to.

Dude, im not retarded. I mean they need to do MORE. Gamestop should have gone the way of a Borders imo. That fact they they are still in business is partially due to the reselling of used games. Which could be curbed or put to a halt with a well thought out plan of attack on that particular market.

And the reason they pay you so little and charge you so much for used games is because that's their entire business model. They are, literally, a pawn shop. The difference between what they pay you for your used game and what you pay for a used game is pure 100% profit for them. And they keep that difference nice and fat.

Lol thanks for breaking it down for me. Again, duh :P

[Shryke]

Dude, im not retarded. I mean they need to do MORE. Gamestop should have gone the way of a Borders imo. That fact they they are still in business is partially due to the reselling of used games. Which could be curbed or put to a halt with a well thought out plan of attack on that particular market.

Gamestop DID actually go the way of Borders. Or within a hair's breadth. It was a last minute restructuring into the current "Used Game Seller (also, maybe some new ones if we bother to stock them" model that saved their asses.

And they are initiating that plan of attack as we speak. That's why this came up in the first place. They can't push it too hard though cause they can't hit Gamestop head on.

[Weak With The Dawn]

Point of interest. Suppose at some point Gamestop does go the way of Borders. All we've got left are bulk suppliers like BestBuy that generally only sell the newest games or the greatest hits.

What happens to the older games market? What happens to the lesser known titles. Are we strictly Ebay and Amazon after that? Gamers don't have a direct line to the publishers, so if there's something we can't find online or in store, what then?

Yes Gamestop charges full price for any newly released game that has been sold back to them and are effectively cutting out profits from potential new game purchases. Wouldn't it be better to enforce a grace period then, instead of just cutting them off completely?

If I'm purchasing a new release game I'll go for a new copy as well, upwards of 2 years from game release, but when I'm just browsing the ancient games section and an old favorite I'd forgotten about catches my eye, that's something I hadn't quite counted on for the day. As things head towards digital sale like Steam or Xbox's Arcade, Wii's virtual console, etc., Gamestop basically has it's time coming, but until then I intend to take advantage of it's vast catalog of older games, including back to the PS2, Gamecube and even Gameboy games.

I run emulators and whatnot for old hard to find games, but finding an old beloved game from a digital list just doesn't have the same feeling as running across it in the store. To that extent I can't be against Gamestop.

It does make them money, not on the initial sale of the used game no. But in the long run, they can and do profit, from used game sales. I'm gonna use my self and my own purchases, as a basis for this. I bought Mass Effect for $20 bucks used, when it was still $40 brand new. I fell so in love with the game, that i preordered the speacial edition of Mass Effect 2 for 79$.

Just want to point out that Mass Effect became a greatest hit, and was price cut down to $20, so had you waited a little longer you could have actually supported the game market.

Your story certainly sounds familiar, I also am a sucker for sequels and will buy full price, but I can promise you this is not the popular scenario. Two of my friends just got their hands on an Xbox 360 for the first time, yes, in 2011. The people of my generation are still pretty strapped for cash, and I can promise a very small percentage actually buy limited editions, let alone a full price new release.

[Relic]

And they are initiating that plan of attack as we speak. That's why this came up in the first place. They can't push it too hard though cause they can't hit Gamestop head on.

Havent read the entire thread and missed that. Can you gimme a summary? Internet here blows and im on my phone, not being (overly) lazy.

[Muttering Bill]

No one is saying you can't. Just understand that every time you buy a used game, that money goes only to the retailer. The people who are actually making these games don't see a penny. Which is true of any used product, but videogames don't lose value when they are sold used, unlike virtually everything else. The lower price point of a used game is, essentially, a lie. It's only due to expectations (people expect used shit to be cheaper) and it's a marketing tactic to get you to buy used so the retailer can pocket all the profit.

Oh, I am quite aware that Gamestop is making loads of profit off of trad-ins. And I don't generally buy used games. In most cases, I'll just wait a year and buy (new) for $20 - with a few exceptions that I'll drop a full $60 on. I prefer to support the industry (even if it's just from bargain bin shopping), and Gamestop used "discounts" aren't substantial enough to change that. But I do enjoy the option of unloading my unwanted games - to the purpose of buying more new games, btw. I take Gamestop in the same way WwtD said. They're good for finding old or obscure games that I just can't come up with a new copy for. Otherwise, I'd rather not deal with them constantly trying to sell me on pre-orders.

And Best Buy is better for trade-ins. You'll get a little better return, can use it to buy things other than games (if that's your preference), and you can look up trade-in values for every game online.

You don't need to buy anything but the game ... so long as you buy it new. That's the way all these "pass" things work (or any I've ever heard of). Uh, just becaues they don't like Gamestop doesn't mean Gamestop doesn't have them half-bent over a barrel.

It's more the priciple of the matter. If I buy a product (or the licence for the product, as in this case), then it is mine to do with as I please. If I want to use it for a week and then sell it, then that's my prerogative to do so, provided that I can find somebody willing to buy it from me. And there isn't a damn thing that they can, or should be able to, do about it. It's the fact that they think they should be exempted that pisses me off.

They want to claim that online MP is a seperate component. Fine. I can almost accept that. They ought to be selling copies without online passes, for those of us who aren't interested. But they're using the "online is seperate, but we'll give it to you as a free bonus for buying new" argument. It does make a kind of sense, even if we all know that's not really what's happening.

It's far worse when they start locking out single player elements - which are essential to the story - as it would seem is the case in AC. Sure, I'll get the code for free. But they're hindering my ability to re-sell it later, as it is an incomplete product.

Again, it the priciple of the matter. They don't get to be the special exception from the second-hand market. If their problem is Gamestop as a bulk used retailer, then target them specifically. Stop giving them pre-order bonuses; give them to other retailers to entice business away from them. Or just stop distributing through them entirely. Don't punish kids who trade with or borrow from their friends. Don't try to prevent people from selling on Ebay, or even giving them away.

Gamestop or it's ilk are pretty much the only game in town now for game-only stores, so they kinda have to play nice.

But they don't really need game-only stores. And if Gamestop is just a glorified pawn shop anyway, then why deal with them? And not just deal with them, but reward them with exclusive bonuses. (Although, it does seem that the other retailers are getting are coming about even with pre-order content now - so maybe that's "phase one.") They're hardly the only place to buy games. If Gamestop shut down - or were not allowed to carry new games - people will just go to WalMart or Amazon instead. The industry isn't going to shut down without them.

Since when is the used game market based on quality?

Not entirely, but to an extent I think that it is. I can only speak for my personal approach. So let's say...

I buy a new game. It sucks. Or it's a single play-through experience. I'm going to unload it a week later, to get something back while it's still worth something. So there's another used copy sitting in a Gamestop or Best Buy, right next to the new ones, enticing customers with a lower price tag.

On the other hand...

I buy a new game. It's great. I want to replay it several times. Even after that, I want to hold on to it because there is a fair chance that I will want to play it again in a few months. Eventually I might get burned out on it, or realize that I haven't played it in a year, and maybe it's time to clear up some shelf space. So I go to Gamestop and they offer me $5 for it. Really? They're still selling it for $25! At that point I'll just keep the damned thing. So there's one less used copy waiting to replace a new sale.

Assuming that there are a fair amount of people who use the same approach, then... better quality = more people holding onto games = fewer used copies on the market = more new sales.

ETA - what they really should be doing, IMO, is setting up a rental option. The infrastructure is already in place on the PS3 at least - with movie rentals and full game trials. Probably on the 360 as well. I'm sure it would get a lot the chronic traders away from Gamestop. I'd much rather do an official rental for a few days - on games that I'm sure about, or I know aren't going to be keepers. Publishers still make a little money, and I still save money.

Also, yes you can gameshare online passes. I don't gameshare. But I do have 2 PS3's. (Well, did - one of them YLOD's last month.) I was able to download the pass to Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood and Mortal Kombat to both of them (only games I own with passes). The profile that redeems the code just needs to stay active on that console - but you can sign in under a different PSN name and still use it.

Much better to the 360's 1 console/1 profile policy.

[ICE CROW]

Your story certainly sounds familiar, I also am a sucker for sequels and will buy full price, but I can promise you this is not the popular scenario. Two of my friends just got their hands on an Xbox 360 for the first time, yes, in 2011. The people of my generation are still pretty strapped for cash, and I can promise a very small percentage actually buy limited editions, let alone a full price new release.

You are right about that, it's like with anything. Its not a 100% statement, just pointing out how my personal experiences, demonstrate my point. There are many people, who don't do as i do. There are even games, i bought used, that i didn't bother to get the sequel at all, in those cases though i hated the game. but it does happen, is the point, quite often in fact. Just from the people i know personally, everyone i know who bought COD4, bought it used. Every since then, they buy it brand new (fuck i hate COD). But i also have one friend, who has only bought every COD game used. It come down, to peoples income and their personal preference.

[Liffguard]

Anyone else played the Missing Link DLC for DXHR? It was a pretty good mission, though maybe a bit much back-and-forth through the same areas. A major plus is that it doesn't suffer from the main game's boss fights. There is a boss, but he's just a regular guy with better gear and the challenge comes from having to get past his guards to get to him and there's plenty of ways of going about it. Story-wise, this DLC basically sets up the main game's ending. If it had been in the main game the whole experience would have been a lot better since the ending would have had a bit of foreshadowing and wouldn't have felt so rushed.

[Nathanael]

So the Steam Halloween sale just started today and one of the games on sale is Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines for $5 . . . I know some of you missed it the last time the price was that low and thought I'd post it here to let you guys know. Still one of the best PC RPGs in recent memory, and the unofficial patches have cleared out must of the bugs (which were a little overblown at release even).

[Slick Mongoose]

Anyone else played the Missing Link DLC for DXHR? It was a pretty good mission, though maybe a bit much back-and-forth through the same areas. A major plus is that it doesn't suffer from the main game's boss fights. There is a boss, but he's just a regular guy with better gear and the challenge comes from having to get past his guards to get to him and there's plenty of ways of going about it. Story-wise, this DLC basically sets up the main game's ending. If it had been in the main game the whole experience would have been a lot better since the ending would have had a bit of foreshadowing and wouldn't have felt so rushed.

Is it worth 1/3 the price of the full game?

[Liffguard]

Is it worth 1/3 the price of the full game?

Purely from a gameplay standpoint, probably not. I mean, it's a fun mission with some cool environments but it doesn't bring anything new to the table. No new equipment or augments or anything like that. On the other hand, if you're a bit more invested in the game's storyline you might want to pick it up to find out more about the main game's crazy ending. Overall, a good DLC but not so essential that it wouldn't be worth waiting for a steam sale to get it cheaper.