R+L=J v.16

[kissdbyfire]

That's my thinking, too. It's not that he'll have died and come back; he won't have died at all. We've had allusions to the preserving power of the cold, and extreme cold can restrict blood flow, making it harder for him to bleed to death. There are other people there who could or would attempt to give him medical care.

Yup. The cold will have a major part in stoping the bleeding, it is known ( here and in Westeros).

And I'd even wager there are many more who would do what possible, and many less who wouldn't. Will that many layers of clothing - including mail - the cold, and the zillions of wildlings arounds... I would find it strange if he did die. I don't mean he'll come out of it unscathed, but he won't die, IMHO.

[Rose of Winterfell]

I do think he's going to be alive in Ghost, at least for a time though-I'll think he'll go north to reunite with Bran and Summer and maybe find out about his parent that way. Bran may well have seen a lot of what happened by now, or know most of it. He saw his younger father saying (I presume about Robb and Jon):

"Let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them"

when he first started having his visions of the past, so all he'd have had to do would be to go back further in that vision to see what eddard had been talking about/praying for before...

[zalim]

well 1 thing is for sure

no matter if jon is son of R and L or not

if he is going to be azor thingy or not or he will carry a lightbringer or ride a dragon and all that stuff

what matters is that right now he is a brother of the watch and he has to DIE in order to fullfill his oath !! if he is only wounded and not DEAD that would mean he still is

night watchman so 1 thing for sure JON is DEAD i dont doubt that but i am not convinced that its the end of jon i think one way or another he will return and for some reason i have feeling that him and Dan are going to be working together soon.

[kissdbyfire]

well 1 thing is for sure

no matter if jon is son of R and L or not

if he is going to be azor thingy or not or he will carry a lightbringer or ride a dragon and all that stuff

what matters is that right now he is a brother of the watch and he has to DIE in order to fullfill his oath !! if he is only wounded and not DEAD that would mean he still is

night watchman so 1 thing for sure JON is DEAD i dont doubt that but i am not convinced that its the end of jon i think one way or another he will return and for some reason i have feeling that him and Dan are going to be working together soon.

I don't see it like that. The realm is changing, Barristan was dismissed from the KG. Several castles at the wall are now manned by wildlings and some king's men - not sure about the king's men, though. One possible change to come is something that tweaks with the vow.

[zalim]

I don't see it like that. The realm is changing, Barristan was dismissed from the KG. Several castles at the wall are now manned by wildlings and some king's men - not sure about the king's men, though. One possible change to come is something that tweaks with the vow.

still vows dont talk about if wildings can or can not become part of nightswatch

or if vows themself doesnt matter if realm is changing !! remember nightswatch is there for thousands and thousands of years

wars happend realm changed westeros changed dragons came and went but vows remained

true one can argue in a way he already broke a vow but still in a way he was working for nights watch and become one again as soon as it was required so i saw

him and ygritte as a mission instead of vow breaking he had sex true but he didnt take her to be his women like wife or anything he was given a task and he did it

so he has to die in order to become free of those vows otherwise i dont think he will just break them all

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

If the Wall comes down and the Night's Watch ceases to exist (say if it does defeat the Others once and for all), do the vows actually matter?

And you can believe that R+L=J without thinking that Jon has to sit on the Iron Throne or get married or whatever. It's not a packaged deal.

[kissdbyfire]

still vows dont talk about if wildings can or can not become part of nightswatch

or if vows themself doesnt matter if realm is changing !! remember nightswatch is there for thousands and thousands of years

wars happend realm changed westeros changed dragons came and went but vows remained

true one can argue in a way he already broke a vow but still in a way he was working for nights watch and become one again as soon as it was required so i saw

him and ygritte as a mission instead of vow breaking he had sex true but he didnt take her to be his women like wife or anything he was given a task and he did it

so he has to die in order to become free of those vows otherwise i dont think he will just break them all

To be quite honest, I don't even think he needs out of the vows.

[kissdbyfire]

If the Wall comes down and the Night's Watch ceases to exist (say if it does defeat the Others once and for all), do the vows actually matter?

And you can believe that R+L=J without thinking that Jon has to sit on the Iron Throne or get married or whatever. It's not a packaged deal.

Just so. Iron Throne? Schmiron Throne...

[zalim]

assuming if the wall comes down at all !!

the great other is never going to die !! it will make no sense a world without a bit of darkness or evil cant exists... there will always be men like

cleganes and other evil creatures so that means great other will be defeated sure but dead? never

soo i dont think wall will ever come down there will be other way for them to come to westeros

ánd as long as wall stands nightwatch much do their duty

[kissdbyfire]

assuming if the wall comes down at all !!

the great other is never going to die !! it will make no sense a world without a bit of darkness or evil cant exists... there will always be men like

cleganes and other evil creatures so that means great other will be defeated sure but dead? never

soo i dont think wall will ever come down there will be other way for them to come to westeros

ánd as long as wall stands nightwatch much do their duty

Well, the 'Summer that never ends' is mentioned throughout the books. Just saying.

And I don't think the Others will pass because the Wall will come down; they will pass because the men of the NW 'are no longer true'. The Wall may come down after the Others are vanquished because it will become obsolete.

[zalim]

Well, the 'Summer that never ends' is mentioned throughout the books. Just saying.

And I don't think the Others will pass because the Wall will come down; they will pass because the men of the NW 'are no longer true'. The Wall may come down after the Others are vanquished because it will become obsolete.

true but it is also said that night is his domain darkness in the heart of ppl is his doing and so much stuff i am sure that all wont end ever. The very first book tells us as long as there is a throne there will be a game thrones which means good and bad people will fight for it and even defeating others wont change that you see right now

there are no others in KG and yet so many ppl died like good ppl honest ppl and it will keep on happening long after the others are defeated.

we arent even sure if all that rhlorr stuff is true at all the only enemy i see is those white walkers and we arent even sure if they really are working for " the great other ".

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

assuming if the wall comes down at all !!

the great other is never going to die !! it will make no sense a world without a bit of darkness or evil cant exists... there will always be men like

cleganes and other evil creatures so that means great other will be defeated sure but dead? never

soo i dont think wall will ever come down there will be other way for them to come to westeros

ánd as long as wall stands nightwatch much do their duty

But it's not the Night's Watch's duty to handle men like the Cleganes. That's not their job. The Night's Watch is specifically tied to the Wall and whatever is north of it. No Wall, no Others (if they're defeated), no purpose for the Night's Watch to continue to exist.

[Azor Ahai Reborn]

I don't think it's predictable at all. I think people poring over clues and obsessing over it and aggregating clues (which are normally often hundreds of pages apart) and thinking about it for years on end have convinced themselves that it's more "obvious" than it really is.

My dad just started reading the series and I asked him if he'd figured it out and he had no idea what I was talking about. Same with one of my friends who's been reading it. Once I explained the clues and evidence, then they said, "Oh yeah, that makes sense ..." but they hadn't come up with it on their own. We're used to hashing it out and dissecting it, but I'm willing to bet that there are a LOT of more casual readers for whom the revelation will be somewhat of a surprise.

Completely agree.

I personally only realised about the possibility of R + L = J through the internet after reading theories from people who have looked at the series through incredibly detailed re-reads and put together intricate clues. I'm not sure I would have even thought about Jon being a Targaryen without internet speculation highlighting it for me.

A small part of me wishes that I wasn't even aware of the internet theories, as then if R + L = J turns out to be true it would have been an amazing surprise for me, whereas now its sort of become an expectation.

[ipsuel]

Completely agree. I personally only realised about the possibility of R + L = J through the internet after reading theories from people who have looked at the series through incredibly detailed re-reads and put together intricate clues. I'm not sure I would have even thought about Jon being a Targaryen without internet speculation highlighting it for me. A small part of me wishes that I wasn't even aware of the internet theories, as then if R + L = J turns out to be true it would have been an amazing surprise for me, whereas now its sort of become an expectation.

I agree. Maybe after a few re-reads I might have started to piece it together, but I didn't catch it on my own (embarrassing, yes lol). The clues are very subtle to the normal reader. And actually, that goes for most of the underlying twists. It often takes a re-read to catch these things, and the average reader doesn't re-read. (Me? I've been a re-reader since forever--of all the great books I love, but most people are not).

Moreover, friends of mine who got into the books after seeing the show (and there are a lot of those people), have come right out and said to me "I don't know about Jon's parents--if R+L were true, why wouldn't they include a ToJ scene or something in the show, then?" Fair point, but we have many seasons for HBO to drop some clues so it doesn't bother me much.

For my part, it took you guys here at this board to plant the idea in my head. I knew something wasn't 100% true about Jon's parentage; I guessed that Eddard may not be his father, but actually, my original thought was Benjen (didn't know ages/timelines back then).

And I also agree that I almost wish I didn't know--however, on the other hand, it's these little, tightly woven web of clues that keeps me going back to the books over and over again!!

[Alia of the knife]

I agree. Maybe after a few re-reads I might have started to piece it together, but I didn't catch it on my own (embarrassing, yes lol). The clues are very subtle to the normal reader. And actually, that goes for most of the underlying twists. It often takes a re-read to catch these things, and the average reader doesn't re-read. (Me? I've been a re-reader since forever--of all the great books I love, but most people are not).

Moreover, friends of mine who got into the books after seeing the show (and there are a lot of those people), have come right out and said to me "I don't know about Jon's parents--if R+L were true, why wouldn't they include a ToJ scene or something in the show, then?" Fair point, but we have many seasons for HBO to drop some clues so it doesn't bother me much.

For my part, it took you guys here at this board to plant the idea in my head. I knew something wasn't 100% true about Jon's parentage; I guessed that Eddard may not be his father, but actually, my original thought was Benjen (didn't know ages/timelines back then).

And I also agree that I almost wish I didn't know--however, on the other hand, it's these little, tightly woven web of clues that keeps me going back to the books over and over again!!

I have to agree as well that the casual reader does not see the connection.

I'd say to your friends question that if they did show Neds flashbacks, it would probably be even more apparent on screen, so they opted to leave it out for the end reveal.

Sometimes that subtlety and nuance is more "clumsy" in it's translation to television.

Their concession was proabably the scene where Ned and Jon part, and Jon want's to know about his mother, and Ned says (rather passionately) that one day, he'd tell Jon about his Mother, but all he needed to know now that Jon was of his blood.

And the part where Selmy reveals himself to Dany was a twist in the book, but if they do that on TV, we'll all take one look, and say: "hey that's Selmy."

[ipsuel]

I have to agree as well that the casual reader does not see the connection.

I'd say to your friends question that if they did show Neds flashbacks, it would probably be even more apparent on screen, so they opted to leave it out for the end reveal.

Sometimes that subtlety and nuance is more "clumsy" in it's translation to television.

Their concession was proabably the scene where Ned and Jon part, and Jon want's to know about his mother, and Ned says (rather passionately) that one day, he'd tell Jon about his Mother, but all he needed to know now that Jon was of his blood.

And the part where Selmy reveals himself to Dany was a twist in the book, but if they do that on TV, we'll all take one look, and say: "hey that's Selmy."

Lol, funny -- that is almost exactly what I told them. Especially the scene where Ned/Jon part ways.

What isn't obvious in a series of books (with small comments spaced hundreds of pages apart), could be *too* obvious for TV. And in some ways, I kind of like that they aren't on board with the theory -- cuz I think they'll get a great payoff in the end :)

[zalim]

But it's not the Night's Watch's duty to handle men like the Cleganes. That's not their job. The Night's Watch is specifically tied to the Wall and whatever is north of it. No Wall, no Others (if they're defeated), no purpose for the Night's Watch to continue to exist.

only if the threat from the north is gone forever right? I mean according to the books , the wall was created (by using a little bit of magic) to protect the rest of the westeros not from wildlings but from evil things like white walkers right?

If those white walkers truly are the soldiers of the great other thn that threat would never ever go away because the great other cant be killed, ok thats only my assumption because the great other = the ultimate evil the dark side or whatever you want to call it, it puts darkness in ppls hearts that can never go away.

I mean if we get ending like say wall is down and all evil is gone n they are going to live happily ever after lol i mean that would be fairytale more like it and its not GRRMs style so i think the ending would be more plausible you know

oh well we will see

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Lol, funny -- that is almost exactly what I told them. Especially the scene where Ned/Jon part ways.

What isn't obvious in a series of books (with small comments spaced hundreds of pages apart), could be *too* obvious for TV. And in some ways, I kind of like that they aren't on board with the theory -- cuz I think they'll get a great payoff in the end :)

I agree with this. While it would've been cool to have, say, a Tower of Joy flashback on the show, the TV format is so condensed that what came across as subtle in the book would have been far too obvious on the screen. So I definitely get why they dialed it down somewhat. I think the place where we'll see the Lyanna/Jon connection is next season during Dany's House of the Undying sequence. The images are "random" enough to befuddle casual viewers, while still planting clues in a delicate way.

[Azor Ahai Reborn]

How many people (still alive) actually know what transpired at the Tower of Joy?

Obviously we presume Howland Reed does, and also this mysterious Wylla, but would there be anyone else? I'm sure Bloodraven knows the truth as well, so it will be interesting to see how GRRM chooses to reveal everything, especially now that Howland Reed's own children are in contact with Bloodraven. Wylla is an odd one though as she seems so isolated from everything else if we are to presume she is still alive and in the south.

My question is whether anyone else knows the truth. Surely Ser Barristan would have wondered why three of his own Kingsguard brothers were told to protect Lyanna, especially with the high regard he holds Rhaegar. Varys also strikes me as someone who would have had serious questions about the whole incident. It will be very interesting to see how everything is revealed regarding the Tower of Joy. Howland Reed is someone that really interests me though; I find it amazing that we haven't even heard anything from him despite two of his children being missing and supposedly dead after the sack of Winterfell.

[kephv]

My question is whether anyone else knows the truth. Surely Ser Barristan would have wondered why three of his own Kingsguard brothers were told to protect Lyanna, especially with the high regard he holds Rhaegar.

Well, that's assuming he knows they died there protecting her. It's really not clear at all what others know of the manner of Lyanna's death, or where exactly the KG was killed.