R+L=J v.16

[Alia of the knife]

Given what we know about the Starks and Lyanna the horse riding tom boy, if she had not gone with Rhaegar willingly IMO she would have stuck a dagger in his neck at first opportunity.

Like Alia says, we'll not know for sure.

But I'm pretty sure Brandon, Robert and later Ned, and many others, believed Lyanna was carried off and raped. But in truth she went willingly to elope, consistent with what Selmy says and some other facts. So after Rhaegar's dead and many others Ned learns his beloved brother and many others died over a mistake and he's haunted by the truth.

Yes, I just saw "Ivanhoe" again, and if the Jousting scene in that is comprable to what Lyanna did, then Rhaegar could never relax around her.

It's kind of what Eddie Murphy says in one of his schticks:

Lyanna: "Yeah baby, um why don't you just go to sleep." :devil:

[kissdbyfire]

So you guys believe that it was a mutual love between Rhaegar and Lyanna then? I was thinking about that myself, and I desperately hope that was the case, but some other fans seem to think that Rhaegar was just a mean, cruel brute who raped her.

My answer to that will vary depending on the day I'm asked it. I haven't quite made my mind up on that, but I lean more towards it not being consensual. Or maybe I'm saying that because today is Monday, and tomorrow I'll think it was an amazing and tragic love story.

;-)

[kissdbyfire]

Given what we know about the Starks and Lyanna the horse riding tom boy, if she had not gone with Rhaegar willingly IMO she would have stuck a dagger in his neck at first opportunity.

Like Alia says, we'll not know for sure.

But I'm pretty sure Brandon, Robert and later Ned, and many others, believed Lyanna was carried off and raped. But in truth she went willingly to elope, consistent with what Selmy says and some other facts. So after Rhaegar's dead and many others Ned learns his beloved brother and many others died over a mistake and he's haunted by the truth.

This is very interesting. I totally understand what you're saying about her sticking a knife in Rhaegar's neck had she been kidnapped. But (nothing said before the word 'but' counts? lol) the second part of your post is exactly why I sometimes tend to believe she didn't go willingly. I see Lyanna as girl who was smart, independent, wilful, wild, pretty, honourable, just, and not selfish (yes, I'm sure she had flaws as well; they just don't matter much for the purpose of this post). Of course, this reading may be completely off. If it isn't, though, I simply don't see how she could have just gone with Rhaegar with no second thought about the consequences of her actions. Rhaegar was the prince and heir, and married. She was a highborn girl from an important house. Why not leave some sort of message for Eddard, or Benjen, or Brandon, or 'to whom it may concern' explaining it?

[corbon]

So you guys believe that it was a mutual love between Rhaegar and Lyanna then? I was thinking about that myself, and I desperately hope that was the case, but some other fans seem to think that Rhaegar was just a mean, cruel brute who raped her.

There are several pieces of evidence that suggest there was something consensual between Rhaegar and Lyanna (though no proof).

The only evidence to the contrary is from Robert, who is completely deluded in every other respect, and slightly psychotic in this particular respect (has a totally different persona from his normal one when referring to anything to do with Targaryens) and Bran, who is a little boy doing nothing more than parroting the 'official' (made official by Robert the King) history.

[ARYa_Nym]

Rhaegar was the prince and heir, and married. She was a highborn girl from an important house. Why not leave some sort of message for Eddard, or Benjen, or Brandon, or 'to whom it may concern' explaining it?

I actually think that Benjen was the one who helped her get away. GRRM said that one day we would learn why he took the black. Perhaps he felt guilt over his involvement. & on another level even if she did give her consent they would still be upset. There's the honor of the Stark House involved here. There was an agreement that she would marry Robert. Plus, they don't know if Rhaegar was turning her into his mistress.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm under the impression that Rhaegar and Lyanna's ... thing ... was consensual. The only person who really suggests otherwise is Robert (well, and Bran, but he's just parroting back propaganda). I also think that the tragedy is connected to Benjen taking the black, either because he helped Lyanna pull off the Knight of the Laughing Tree stunt, or helped her get away with Rhaegar, or both.

[Alia of the knife]

My answer to that will vary depending on the day I'm asked it. I haven't quite made my mind up on that, but I lean more towards it not being consensual. Or maybe I'm saying that because today is Monday, and tomorrow I'll think it was an amazing and tragic love story.

;-)

On this topic, there is however something that nags at me.

The thing that doesn't make sense for me on this issue, is the fact that if she loved him, or it was mutual, I would think more would have been said about her behavior, which I'm sure would have been considered inappropriate.

In that society, (if it mirrored real history), the brunt of responsibility for moral behavior would have fallen on her.

Aristocratic society would have forgiven the Prince his love and desire, but it would NOT forgive her. So, if it were mutual, and beyond "sniffling" over a song, (EVERYONE sniffled over his songs), I would think such romantic behavior would have been marked and commented upon, and she would have born the brunt of criticism, especially as many in the South would see her as some unconventional, outlander temptress who took their perfect Prince away from family and Kingdom.

I know some have suggested their relatioship was a secret started at Harrenhal. I don't know about what you've observed, but most people in love are not that good at hiding it, even though they think they're being "slick" about it, so people would have gossiped.

But, you hear virtually nothing negative about her, even from Cersei, other than to say, if Rhaegar had married her instead of Elia, Rhaegar wouldn't have looked twice at the wolf girl. Cerseis Uncle remarked upon Lyannas "wild beauty." (It's pretty much sacrilage to mention anyone elses beauty other than Cerseis in the Lannister family).

Viserys does the same with Dany, and says if she was born earlier, Rhaegar would not have needed the Stark girl.

The Martells seem not to have any animosity towards the Starks given the fact they'r not on "the list," and The Red Vipers courtesy towards the Niece, (Sansa), of the woman who was potentially party to his sisters destruction.

So, others POV, (with the exception of Connington who probably didn't want to face it), points to Rhaegars loving Lyanna, but no one actually talks about her loving him.

For me, the lack of animosity towards her from even someone like Cersei indicates to me at least, that these people don't hold her responsible for what happened, therefore perhaps Lyanna wasn't willing and everyone knew it.

And lastly, like you, I just see Lyanna as too strong and proud to be Rhaegars mistress, so either she refused him because he was married (though she may have loved him), so he just lost it and took her, OR he did marry her, with the intention of putting Elia aside, and they had to hide.

[ARYa_Nym]

The masses seem to place blame on Elia. She was never good enough for him, she was too sickly, she was too plain, she couldn't give him what he wanted, etc.

Edit: To relate this to RL. The other woman isn't always scorned. If we look at Brangelina, They became a power couple. I like them myself. Jennifer Aniston however was depicted as desperate, unable to keep a man, the scorned woman, etc. in the tabloids.

I've always wondered if the masses really believed that he raped Lyanna. I think Aegon will reap the benefits of passing himself off as Rhaegar's son.

[corbon]

The thing that doesn't make sense for me on this issue, is the fact that if she loved him, or it was mutual, I would think more would have been said about her behavior, which I'm sure would have been considered inappropriate.

Robert won the war and got to write the history. So Lyanna's behaviour isn't in question.

I think that while something may have started at Harrenhal, it didn't bear enough fruit, at least from Lyanna's side, until more or less the 'abduction', for people to talk about her behaviour. Basically there was no behaviour to talk about, until they disappeared together, and at that point the next thing anyone knows is Robert has won the war and "Lyanna was abducted" is the official line, which means there is still nothing to talk about regarding her behaviour.

Its all perfectly consistent.

Just not necessarily accurate. She doesn't seem, by all the characterisation we've seen of her, to have been such a passive wallflower that things only happen too. But it appears that is how she will be seen in history's pages.

[FanTasy]

It may be that we are all deftly played by GRRM.

As I said somewhere before it would sadden me if the big underlying mystery in this story is that of the lost or switched princeling, who had a rough time growing up. But eventually all turns to the good: it becomes known that he is the rightful heir, he marries a queen and may get nice dragon pets. And by the way, he happens to save humanity/the world from some long lingering evil and nasty power. And this was all promised in ye auld prophecies.

Really, I do hope GRRM will come up with a twist.

But I'm keeping all options open

And of course there is some overwhelming 'proof' for this theory, it is dished up nicely in three courses:

1) Jon is clearly a character who has to do something heroic. His dreams foreshadow him having a role in a bigger picture.

2) The consistent tales of Rhaegar eloping with or kidnapping Lyanna. He was supposedly lovestruck with her and/or he wanted her to give him a daughter. A Visenya, so he could recreate a Targaryen-bloodline and by doing so creating the re-birth of a great hero. He was planning to set his wife aside for Lyanna or to take Lyanna as his second wife.

3) What supposedly happened at the Tower of Joy. The fact that there were kingsguards would suggest that they were protecting the rightful king so Lyanna had to have a legitimate son by Rhaegar. Now that Rhaegar was dead and Robert king, the childs life would be in great danger. So Ned promised his sister that he would save the child by hiding its true identity forever. And so doing living himself a lie, claiming to his wife and the world that Jon was his bastard son.

Okay, so far so good. But there are some nagging questions.

Let's assume Rhaegar did want to put Elia aside and marry Lyanna. Or meant to stay married to Elia but taking another wife. Both would probably have meant war with Dorne. Not only because the Martells seem to have loved Elia. It would be a broken marriage contract and it would lessen what Dorne wanted to achieve with marrying Elia to the heir to the throne.

If Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna against her will he would not only bring dishonour to his house and to his father the king but also risk war with Dorne as well as with a lot of angry Northmen - and with the insulted and frustrated Baratheons.

Rhaegar must have been utterly reckless, if he risked all this. And surely madder than his daddy was.

Was he?

Whe seem to accept this erratic behaviour because there are a lot of tales told of mad inbred Targaryens.

But where are the signs of previous recklessness and madness in Rhaegar?

He was not a young inexperienced boy when he took Lyanna I believe.

And was he known as a reckless swashbuckly type? I did not get this impression, he played the harp, sang songs and read books.

Another thing that bugs me. Have we ever heard someone of the Martells tell us that they know about this story of setting aside or insulting a princess of Dorne? That they hated Starks or Targaryens because of this?

The Martells at least had to know what happened at the tournament where Rhaegar not crowned his wife but Lyanna as 'Queen of Love and Beauty'.

The tower of Joy was in their country. Could they really not know anything about this plot?

So, why are the Dornish so silent about all this? We just know they have a grudge against the Lannisters for killing Elia. And that Doran does not seem to hate the Targaryens enough to let it hinder him in sending Quentin off to marry a Targaryen.

So many questions ... and I do so want to believe the beautiful, romantic and sad love story of the king, the beautiful maiden and of their love child.

Sigh ... it is a long wait till 2014 / 2020, when we'll know for sure.

[kissdbyfire]

I actually think that Benjen was the one who helped her get away. GRRM said that one day we would learn why he took the black. Perhaps he felt guilt over his involvement. & on another level even if she did give her consent they would still be upset. There's the honor of the Stark House involved here. There was an agreement that she would marry Robert. Plus, they don't know if Rhaegar was turning her into his mistress.

I see... I've always had the impression Benjen was closest to Lyanna, so I can picture him helping her. Still, why not let the others know she was going willingly (and perhaps even getting married)? They may not have liked it one bit, but I imagine events would have unfolded in a very different way.

[Serie]

I see... I've always had the impression Benjen was closest to Lyanna, so I can picture him helping her. Still, why not let the others know she was going willingly (and perhaps even getting married)? They may not have liked it one bit, but I imagine events would have unfolded in a very different way.

can you help me a bit on this? how do we now that the rest Starks didn't know that she went willingly?

[Thoheeks Bili]

It may be that we are all deftly played by GRRM.

As I said somewhere before it would sadden me if the big underlying mystery in this story is that of the lost or switched princeling, who had a rough time growing up. But eventually all turns to the good: it becomes known that he is the rightful heir, he marries a queen and may get nice dragon pets. And by the way, he happens to save humanity/the world from some long lingering evil and nasty power. And this was all promised in ye auld prophecies.

Really, I do hope GRRM will come up with a twist.

But I'm keeping all options open

And of course there is some overwhelming 'proof' for this theory, it is dished up nicely in three courses:

1) Jon is clearly a character who has to do something heroic. His dreams foreshadow him having a role in a bigger picture.

2) The consistent tales of Rhaegar eloping with or kidnapping Lyanna. He was supposedly lovestruck with her and/or he wanted her to give him a daughter. A Visenya, so he could recreate a Targaryen-bloodline and by doing so creating the re-birth of a great hero. He was planning to set his wife aside for Lyanna or to take Lyanna as his second wife.

3) What supposedly happened at the Tower of Joy. The fact that there were kingsguards would suggest that they were protecting the rightful king so Lyanna had to have a legitimate son by Rhaegar. Now that Rhaegar was dead and Robert king, the childs life would be in great danger. So Ned promised his sister that he would save the child by hiding its true identity forever. And so doing living himself a lie, claiming to his wife and the world that Jon was his bastard son.

Okay, so far so good. But there are some nagging questions.

Let's assume Rhaegar did want to put Elia aside and marry Lyanna. Or meant to stay married to Elia but taking another wife. Both would probably have meant war with Dorne. Not only because the Martells seem to have loved Elia. It would be a broken marriage contract and it would lessen what Dorne wanted to achieve with marrying Elia to the heir to the throne.

If Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna against her will he would not only bring dishonour to his house and to his father the king but also risk war with Dorne as well as with a lot of angry Northmen - and with the insulted and frustrated Baratheons.

Rhaegar must have been utterly reckless, if he risked all this. And surely madder than his daddy was.

Was he?

Whe seem to accept this erratic behaviour because there are a lot of tales told of mad inbred Targaryens.

But where are the signs of previous recklessness and madness in Rhaegar?

He was not a young inexperienced boy when he took Lyanna I believe.

And was he known as a reckless swashbuckly type? I did not get this impression, he played the harp, sang songs and read books.

Another thing that bugs me. Have we ever heard someone of the Martells tell us that they know about this story of setting aside or insulting a princess of Dorne? That they hated Starks or Targaryens because of this?

The Martells at least had to know what happened at the tournament where Rhaegar not crowned his wife but Lyanna as 'Queen of Love and Beauty'.

The tower of Joy was in their country. Could they really not know anything about this plot?

So, why are the Dornish so silent about all this? We just know they have a grudge against the Lannisters for killing Elia. And that Doran does not seem to hate the Targaryens enough to let it hinder him in sending Quentin off to marry a Targaryen.

So many questions ... and I do so want to believe the beautiful, romantic and sad love story of the king, the beautiful maiden and of their love child.

Sigh ... it is a long wait till 2014 / 2020, when we'll know for sure.

I think that the Martells have different ideals about polygamy....they don't seem to be to worried about who's bedding who AND nobody ever said he was going to get a divorce from Elia. Any of her kids would come before any of Lyanna's kids due to date of birth.

I'm sure everyone knew that Elia had come to an end of her child birthing days(or so it's mentioned) but can a king ever have too many kids? Especially one who is obsessed with a prophecy and just knew that the "dragon has 3 heads"(one short from Elia) and that his child would be the PwwP.

I personally, don't think he would be insulting Dorne. They know Elia is sickly and that her kids are first in line to inherit anything.

He WOULD be insulting the Baratheons!!! Possibly the Starks( depending on how Rickard would have taken the announcement)

Remember, Rickard had stong idea's about getting in good with the southern nobility and i'm sure with some fine words, new titles, etc, could have been convinced to change his arrangement's with the Baratheons in favour of having his daughter married to the next KING!!!

The sticking point would be how to placate the Baratheon family into not freaking out................ It's all moot though as things didn't go near that way. :cool4:

[kissdbyfire]

can you help me a bit on this? how do we now that the rest Starks didn't know that she went willingly?

We don't, not with certainty, anyway. I suppose it would be possible for the Starks (some, if not all) to know. But I see several issues with that possibility. For instance, wouldn't Eddard have tried to stop Brandon from going to KL to challenge Rhaegar? I can see that no amount of evidence would ever convince Robert, but the Starks are altogether a different type of animal. Yes, Brandon was, as far as we know, 'wild' and impulsive; but every glimpse we have of Eddard, from the Touney at Harrenhall to Bran's vision of him at Winterfell and even the 'present' indicate this is a man who thinks about the consequences of his actions. Even when he misreads said consequences and makes huge mistakes. I find it very hard to believe that he would have done nothing had he known Lyanna went willingly.

ARYa_Nym postulates that Benjen knew and maybe even helped Lyanna, and that this could explain why he joined the NW. I think this is very possible, and in my opinion, Benjen is the only Stark that could have known and not acted on that knowledge. After all, how old was he then? Not more than 14, I think, and maybe a few years younger; during the Tourney at Harrenhhal he is described by the crannogman ( Howland Reed) as 'the wolf pup'. If he did indeed know and/or helped, I don't blame him for not telling anyone else as he was a kid, and possibly idolised Lyanna. My problem is why wouldn't Lyanna tell someone else; she had to be aware there would be severe consequences to this 'elopement'.

[Serie]

@Kissdbyfire thanks for clearing this out.

I've read Arya_Nym's post and I too think it's possible for Benjen to know. But maybe Ned knew as well. Of course he would have tried to talk Brenden out from challenging Rhaegar without letting him know why though.

The thing is that the love story (which I hope its there) is too good to be true...

[Thoheeks Bili]

If i remember correctly, Ned was at the reach when the mad king demanded his and Roberts heads, so how would he possibly stop his hothead brother from doing this?

I'm sure if he were in the vicinity of his Bro, he probably would try to "cool" him down but being a younger brother and not as good with the sword(Brandon was supposed to be good) what else could he do?

I don't think Ned knew what happened until Jon Arryn had the demand on Ned/Roberts heads, and even then............how would he know why this happened? Did the Mad king just send a letter to the Arryn's saying" cut Ned stark and Robert Baratheon's heads off and deliver them to me, posthaste" or did he say the reason for his demand as well?

[Alia of the knife]

On the matter of the Dornish, Elia and the Martells, would they have been that offended if there were mitigating circumstances?

If he set her aside just because he fell in love with another woman, that would have been an offense.

But given that she is now barren, "The Maesters told Rhaegar she would bare no more children," that may simply be something that the Dornish can't get around.

If heirs are important to a Lord, what about a future King?

She gave him one heir, but what then if something happens to Aegon? A disruption in succession could also cause a war if something happened to him and there were no "spare."

In this case, Rhaegar would not necessarily be wrong, and he has a duty himself to make sure there are no disruptions, and if he can accomplish this with a woman he actually loves, then all the better for him.

As for hoping this isn't a love story, why?

The entire work is full of people suffering from romantic angst.

In terms of a "twist" the twist could be about how prophesy is played out, or fulfilled.

Rhaegar has thus far gone through a lot of machinations to tweak and manipulate prophesy- until he falls in love with Lyanna.

(There is no evidence she has a role in his prophesy as he's declared that Aegons song is one of Ice and Fire, and this is after he meets Lyanna).

I might also add, a twist for this series would actually be two people end up with who they really want to be with.

It could be the first time in his life he's NOT focused on prophesy, but the real world and focuses on her, and of course in so doing, fulfills prophesy.

A side note: Not sure if Martin and the creator of "The Walking Dead" are in competition for the "no safe zone," but last nights mid-season finale was pretty gut wrenching.

Martin has to be faithful to his work, and I think he is smart for not reading the blogs and becoming influenced by them, and even if his story borders on what some refer to as "cliche," he is still a great story teller.

The whole "twist" thing, and "there-is-no-hope-pack-it-up-and-give-up" message, if done enough can also border on cliche,' evidenced by the fact that when you see Martin clearly revealing what happened, no one believes it- either because they're suspicious, or it doesn't fit the template that they want to see.

[ipsuel]

I think that the Martells have different ideals about polygamy....they don't seem to be to worried about who's bedding who AND nobody ever said he was going to get a divorce from Elia. Any of her kids would come before any of Lyanna's kids due to date of birth.

I'm sure everyone knew that Elia had come to an end of her child birthing days(or so it's mentioned) but can a king ever have too many kids? Especially one who is obsessed with a prophecy and just knew that the "dragon has 3 heads"(one short from Elia) and that his child would be the PwwP.

I personally, don't think he would be insulting Dorne. They know Elia is sickly and that her kids are first in line to inherit anything.

He WOULD be insulting the Baratheons!!! Possibly the Starks( depending on how Rickard would have taken the announcement)

Remember, Rickard had stong idea's about getting in good with the southern nobility and i'm sure with some fine words, new titles, etc, could have been convinced to change his arrangement's with the Baratheons in favour of having his daughter married to the next KING!!!

The sticking point would be how to placate the Baratheon family into not freaking out................ It's all moot though as things didn't go near that way. :cool4:

This ^ The fact that we don't hear the Martell's complaining about Rhaegar makes me believe they were on board with a 2nd wife. Otherwise, we would have heard something... anything... about what a schmuck Rhaegar was in their view.

Of course this is just my assumption, but to me, the R+L=J theory is a done deal. We don't even need it confirmed really (unless something crazy rears its ugly head).

[Dragonfish]

This ^ The fact that we don't hear the Martell's complaining about Rhaegar makes me believe they were on board with a 2nd wife. Otherwise, we would have heard something... anything... about what a schmuck Rhaegar was in their view.

Well, there is a SSM where George says that the Dornish did not approve of Rhaegar's "treatment" of Elia, though that may only refer to his "humiliation" of her at Harrenhal.

[CJS 2207]

I first began speculating about Jon's parentage midway through AGoT. I never believed that he was Lord Eddard's bastard... not through anything concrete... just a hunch or suspicion.

When I found out that Rhaegar had kidnapped Lyanna and raped her (King Robert's version if I recall correctly), I had a crazy notion that perhaps Jon was the product of this event?

Little did I know that there was much more to this notion (and the relationship between R + L) until perusing the subsequent works in ASoIaF and reading about descriptions of Rhaegar character from other points of view.

That is one of the elements that makes these books so fantastic. How we can read about something from one character's point of view and then formulate an opinion or a conclusion on it, only to have it be inverted or turned completely on it's axis by events or words or actions told from another character's perspective.

That is why I learned early on to not jump to conclusions, since first impressions seemingly are unwarranted or spurious at best in ASoIaF.

Sorry to go off on a bit of a tangent. But I suspect that R + L = J is true, for reasons others in this thread have so eloquently stated in previous posts. I am eagerly anticipating how this reveal will be manifest in the remaining works.