R+L=J v.16

[Thoheeks Bili]

Well, that's assuming he knows they died there protecting her. It's really not clear at all what others know of the manner of Lyanna's death, or where exactly the KG was killed.

Yes, i'm sure Rheagar didn't announce back at Kings Landing, "You 3 go to the tower of Joy and stay with my other wife and protect her and my other heir. Jaime, stay here and guard the King and the rest, with me! Let's go kick some rebel ass."

[Alia of the knife]

How many people (still alive) actually know what transpired at the Tower of Joy?

Obviously we presume Howland Reed does, and also this mysterious Wylla, but would there be anyone else? I'm sure Bloodraven knows the truth as well, so it will be interesting to see how GRRM chooses to reveal everything, especially now that Howland Reed's own children are in contact with Bloodraven. Wylla is an odd one though as she seems so isolated from everything else if we are to presume she is still alive and in the south.

My question is whether anyone else knows the truth. Surely Ser Barristan would have wondered why three of his own Kingsguard brothers were told to protect Lyanna, especially with the high regard he holds Rhaegar. Varys also strikes me as someone who would have had serious questions about the whole incident. It will be very interesting to see how everything is revealed regarding the Tower of Joy. Howland Reed is someone that really interests me though; I find it amazing that we haven't even heard anything from him despite two of his children being missing and supposedly dead after the sack of Winterfell.

I think the people of Rhaegars circle fall into two categories:

1). The utterly devoted: The Daynes, and other KG members who had his confidence and trust, knowing the details of his life and trusted with those details, thinking in the end, it was all pure in motivation, (i.e., needing more children, either for neccessity, some prophetic reason, or both, as well as true love).

2). Those who held him in high regard: Selmy, Jaimie, Connington., etc. I know Connington should fall into the utterly devoted category, which he was, but I don't think he was trusted with a secret like Lyanna, because Rhaegar knew of his feeling towards him, and perhaps could not trust him to remain objective enough to do what was needed.

Selmy strikes me as someone who is more apt to not judge, or question because that is not his function. His function is to follow orders, and if Rhaegar called those men, then that was for him to do.

(They liked and supported Rhaegar, and therefore probably did not want to know what he was doing, especially in the event that Lyannas will was in question).

As for Varys, I'm sure Rhaegar knew to beware of him most of all, and Varys was perhaps not as experienced then as he is now with gathering information

[Alia of the knife]

I wonder too what we are to make of Bloodraven.

Would he have been pro-Rhaegar, or anti-Rhaegar?

[kissdbyfire]

I wonder too what we are to make of Bloodraven.

Would he have been pro-Rhaegar, or anti-Rhaegar?

I'd say pro-Rhaegar... In the Dunk & Egg novellas he is shown as being aTargaryen loyalist.

I also wonder about the tragedy at Summerhall, and what does it mean in terms of relations within the Targaryen family - i.e., did Aegon V have good family relations with both Aerys and Rhaella? Or just with Rhaella? I'm extremely curious to know more about the Targaryen family dynamic, especially in the last 100 years or from Maekar to Aerys.

[Gala]

But if Rhaegar hadn't changed his mind about the PTWP again, then why go through all the trouble he did with Lyanna? If Rhaegar just needed a third head of the dragon, then he could have "contracted" -for lack of a better word- a common woman to carry the child. Nobody would have minded if Rhaegar was sleeping around or had an acknowledged bastard. The problem was that he ran off with a high born noble woman and hid her in a tower in the middle of Dorne, thereby starting a war. In all likelihood, he decided that he needed to have a child with Lyanna Stark, the union of fire and ice, to fulfill the main prophecy itself. (And I am of the mind that Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna for prophecy purposes only. Lyanna probably went because she was infatuated with him, and before her brother and father's deaths, it probably sounded like an adventure.)

Also, the prophecy and the line of succession are two different things. I don't thing that Rhaegar would have ever put Jon ahead of Aegon in the line of succession. In fact, I don't think that Rhaegar even wanted to marry Lyanna as it would complicate the political situation when they returned to the Red Keep. Lyanna probably insisted that they get married before she would sleep with him.

Well, I think you're mistaken about his feelings. I think, indeed, it was the first time he ever stopped thinking about prophecy and just fell in love with Lyanna's "wild beauty" and her brave heart (I remember someone wrote about their possible meeting at the tournament: Rhaegar was sent by his father to find who was the mysterious knight that defeated the bullies and he did so- it was Lyanna, with whom he simply fell in love). I presume he really loved her and he was doomed to pay for his love with the whole kingdom and with his own family as well. Plus: he died with woman's name on his lips (one of the Dany's visions), which undoubtedly was -Lyanna (he surely didn't love Elia at all, despite two children)! Therefore, I think the song of ice and fire, he was obsessed of, really was fulfilled by coincidence.

I don't think he made everything connected to Lyanna just in purpose to fulfill that stupid prophecy.

I don't think he really changed his mind in the case of Promised Prince- he thought till the end it was Aegon.

[Gala]

Remember starks are the ONLY ONES with warg personalites and the reason? simple remember the story ygritte told jon? about how a wildling king married stark girl

and their son became the next stark lord? that was the time the stark and wildling blood mixed and from WILDLINGS starks inherited this ability.

Starks are wargs because they are the descendants of First People and not because some wilding mixed their blood. I presume they are ancestors of some ancient lords, or so, at least I had that impression. As even the tale is true, why not ALL the wildings are wargs?!Plus: all the wildings know who are the Starks and even how they look like, as if they were the local Lords for centuries!

I agree about Jon's abilities: there is no obstacle to Jon being a warg, presuming he is Lyanna's son.

[zalim]

Starks are wargs because they are the descendants of First People and not because some wilding mixed their blood. I presume they are ancestors of some ancient lords, or so, at least I had that impression. As even the tale is true, why not ALL the wildings are wargs?!Plus: all the wildings know who are the Starks and even how they look like, as if they were the local Lords for centuries!

I agree about Jon's abilities: there is no obstacle to Jon being a warg, presuming he is Lyanna's son.

Everyone is descendants of first people not just Starks.They came from east and spreaded around westeros yet only starks have warg abilities and why is that?

You cant say that only Starks are the true descendant from first people. Remember when first men and children made peace between each other (pact) the deal was that men wont cut down weirdwood trees and give forest to the children in return children will let them have the rest of the westeros.

So many other houses are descendants from first men including starks and possible many wildlings as well but this warg abilities are gift only for starks and all the wildlings knows about stark because of the story ygritte told jon... so far it seems that only SOME of the starks and SOME of the wildlings have this abilities i never said all of them have it. Sansa never showed any of the warg ability yet she is Stark and the only connection between starks and wildlings is that story of ygritte which makes sense to me even Targs cant controll their dragons like wargs control animals, plus i dont even remember anyone from east having warg like abilities even though the

first men came from east.

I still think its because starks have wildling blood in them or just maybe just maybe their is more about brandon the builder maybe it was a gift given to wildlings and to the brandon the builder by children, we know that brandon the builder created the house stark so maybe their is more about him we dont know yet

[Dragonfish]

Everyone is descendants of first people not just Starks.They came from east and spreaded around westeros yet only starks have warg abilities and why is that?

The First Men were driven out of the South by the Andals. There's been a lot of intermarriage since then, so most houses probably have a little First Men blood, but the fact remains that the houses with the most First Men blood are generally in the North (with some exceptions).

Also, I believe warging is said to be very rare, even among the wildlings (who are mostly pure First Men), so it's not that surprising that there are even fewer wargs among the people who live below the Wall, given that they are mostly an Andal/First Men mix.

You cant say that only Starks are the true descendant from first people. Remember when first men and children made peace between each other (pact) the deal was that men wont cut down weirdwood trees and give forest to the children in return children will let them have the rest of the westeros.

So many other houses are descendants from first men including starks and possible many wildlings as well but this warg abilities are gift only for starks and all the wildlings knows about stark because of the story ygritte told jon... so far it seems that only SOME of the starks and SOME of the wildlings have this abilities i never said all of them have it. Sansa never showed any of the warg ability yet she is Stark and the only connection between starks and wildlings is that story of ygritte which makes sense to me even Targs cant controll their dragons like wargs control animals, plus i dont even remember anyone from east having warg like abilities even though the

first men came from east.

I still think its because starks have wildling blood in them or just maybe just maybe their is more about brandon the builder maybe it was a gift given to wildlings and to the brandon the builder by children, we know that brandon the builder created the house stark so maybe their is more about him we dont know yet

Bloodraven is a warg, and he doesn't have any wildling blood that we know of. He does, however, descend from a First Men house, which continues to worship the old gods to this day.

[zalim]

The First Men were driven out of the South by the Andals. There's been a lot of intermarriage since then, so most houses probably have a little First Men blood, but the fact remains that the houses with the most First Men blood are generally in the North (with some exceptions).

Also, I believe warging is said to be very rare, even among the wildlings (who are mostly pure First Men), so it's not that surprising that there are even fewer wargs among the people who live below the Wall, given that they are mostly an Andal/First Men mix.

Bloodraven is a warg, and he doesn't have any wildling blood that we know of. He does, however, descend from a First Men house, which continues to worship the old gods to this day.

again so far starks are the only one with the ability, blood of first men or not it has nothing to do with first men at all

karstarks , greystarks and even boltons all of them are from starks and first men yet only house stark has the ability and the

reason can be wildling blood or as i mentioned before something to do with brandon the builder because this warg ability

comes from north not east or south and bloodraven is friend of the children and as i mentioned above maybe its a gift from

the children as we know they themselves are very powerfull when it comes to magic and bloodraven is a green seer not just a warg

a green seer is much more powerfulll in comparison and learns to become one with the trees and animals now Arya is warg

not green seer so is Jon a warg not a green seer but bran is a green seer and there is a difference between both of them

Skinchanger was a powerfull warg but he never had any ability that suggested that he is a green seer. Wargs are rare and so far

only Wildlings and starks have them but green seers are even more rare

[Dragonfish]

again so far starks are the only one with the ability, blood of first men or not it has nothing to do with first men at all

karstarks , greystarks and even boltons all of them are from starks and first men yet only house stark has the ability and the

reason can be wildling blood or as i mentioned before something to do with brandon the builder because this warg ability

comes from north not east or south and bloodraven is friend of the children and as i mentioned above maybe its a gift from

the children as we know they themselves are very powerfull when it comes to magic and bloodraven is a green seer not just a warg

a green seer is much more powerfulll in comparison and learns to become one with the trees and animals now Arya is warg

not green seer so is Jon a warg not a green seer but bran is a green seer and there is a difference between both of them

Skinchanger was a powerfull warg but he never had any ability that suggested that he is a green seer. Wargs are rare and so far

only Wildlings and starks have them but green seers are even more rare

First of all, the wildlings are First Men. There is nothing special about "wildling blood" that sets them apart from other First Men houses.

Second of all, Bloodraven probably had his warging ability even before he went to the Wall (that's what made him such a good spy).

And finally, the Starks and Bloodraven are the only wargs that we know of, and of those characters, a few of them weren't even aware they had that ability for a while. For all we know, there could be a few other wargs among some of the other First Men houses, who are similarly unaware of their ability. And even if there aren't, that can be explained by the fact that warging is extremely rare.

[Alia of the knife]

Now, due to the "activities" of the Night King, do the Starks have any creepy Other in their blood?

(Now there was a wife who was frigid in the sack) :drunk:

[Alia of the knife]

I'd say pro-Rhaegar... In the Dunk & Egg novellas he is shown as being aTargaryen loyalist.

I also wonder about the tragedy at Summerhall, and what does it mean in terms of relations within the Targaryen family - i.e., did Aegon V have good family relations with both Aerys and Rhaella? Or just with Rhaella? I'm extremely curious to know more about the Targaryen family dynamic, especially in the last 100 years or from Maekar to Aerys.

Me too, I wish Martin would just compile them all in one big book.

[zalim]

First of all, the wildlings are First Men. There is nothing special about "wildling blood" that sets them apart from other First Men houses.

Second of all, Bloodraven probably had his warging ability even before he went to the Wall (that's what made him such a good spy).

And finally, the Starks and Bloodraven are the only wargs that we know of, and of those characters, a few of them weren't even aware they had that ability for a while. For all we know, there could be a few other wargs among some of the other First Men houses, who are similarly unaware of their ability. And even if there aren't, that can be explained by the fact that warging is extremely rare.

lol thats exactly what i said most of the ppl living in westeros desc. from first ppl even wildlings and lol you just confirmed it

we havent seen warging in anyone else but wildlings and starks in all 5 books already

its just a theory and only connection between them thats all

Bloodraven was not just a warg he was always green seer it only took time for his ability to develop

you cant compare the two, green seers are way more powerfull and they have way more powers thn simple warging.

Unless someone else come alone from north or south or anywhere else and has the same ability thn offcourse you are right its random

but if not in rest of the books? means its selective power and the only 2 possibilities are

its a gift for starks through brandom the builder by children of forest

or it has something to do with wildlings

trust me bloodlines play a big role in the books in small and big matters both

lol it bloody gave them so many civil wars already

[zalim]

Now, due to the "activities" of the Night King, do the Starks have any creepy Other in their blood?

(Now there was a wife who was frigid in the sack) :drunk:

lol you dont mean the night king did a ugly other girl do you? :-s

[Dragonfish]

lol thats exactly what i said most of the ppl living in westeros desc. from first ppl even wildlings and lol you just confirmed it

Uh, yeah, I confirmed it because it helps my case. I'm saying that the Starks' warging capability likely comes from their First Men blood in general, and not from wildling blood in particular. The fact that wildlings can warg is likely a reflection of the fact that they are mostly pure First Men.

we havent seen warging in anyone else but wildlings and starks in all 5 books already

its just a theory and only connection between them thats all

Bloodraven was not just a warg he was always green seer it only took time for his ability to develop

you cant compare the two, green seers are way more powerfull and they have way more powers thn simple warging.

Your first and third sentences contradict each other. First you say that we haven't seen warging in anyone but Starks and wildlings, but then you outright admit that Bloodraven is a warg. For some reason, though, you claim this doesn't matter because he's also a greenseer. Needless to say, this doesn't make a lick of sense. It's like saying you can't call a swordfighter a swordfighter because he's also good at archery.

Unless someone else come alone from north or south or anywhere else and has the same ability thn offcourse you are right its random

I never said it was completely random. I'm saying that it probably is connected to First Men blood.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

@Dragonfish: I commend you for replying point by point. I long ago lost track of what on earth that guy was trying to say.

[Cydal]

again so far starks are the only one with the ability, blood of first men or not it has nothing to do with first men at all

karstarks , greystarks and even boltons all of them are from starks and first men yet only house stark has the ability and the

reason can be wildling blood or as i mentioned before something to do with brandon the builder because this warg ability

comes from north not east or south and bloodraven is friend of the children and as i mentioned above maybe its a gift from

the children as we know they themselves are very powerfull when it comes to magic and bloodraven is a green seer not just a warg

a green seer is much more powerfulll in comparison and learns to become one with the trees and animals now Arya is warg

not green seer so is Jon a warg not a green seer but bran is a green seer and there is a difference between both of them

Skinchanger was a powerfull warg but he never had any ability that suggested that he is a green seer. Wargs are rare and so far

only Wildlings and starks have them but green seers are even more rare

There is also Bloodraven due to his Blackwood heritage

[zalim]

Uh, yeah, I confirmed it because it helps my case. I'm saying that the Starks' warging capability likely comes from their First Men blood in general, and not from wildling blood in particular. The fact that wildlings can warg is likely a reflection of the fact that they are mostly pure First Men.

So you are saying just like Wildlings , Starks have most pure First men Blood? and thats why they have this ability?

I am sure like Targs Starks never practiced incestuous marriages or did they? offcourse not. They have first men blood , they have blood of andals just like all

other houses but they also have blood of some wildling king in them.

It has nothing to do with who has first men blood who doesnt the only thing i was saying and still am saying that the ability is from westeros and north of westeros probably and not from east and as i said these are just theories based on what we have learned so far in 5 books maybe I am wrong maybe i am right and so far

i am just looking at the facts given in those 5 books. I told you about Wildling blood theory because of the story ygritte told jon and was it just some random legendary story? how can you be sure? so far many things we thought were random turned out to be important after all plus this whole theory of R + L = J is based on facts given to us in the books and it isnt confirmed yet. I mean we cant be sure about anything because there still is alot of information which is missing and based on the facts of 5 books First men from east or their blood has nothing to do with it at all.

Your first and third sentences contradict each other. First you say that we haven't seen warging in anyone but Starks and wildlings, but then you outright admit that Bloodraven is a warg. For some reason, though, you claim this doesn't matter because he's also a greenseer. Needless to say, this doesn't make a lick of sense. It's like saying you can't call a swordfighter a swordfighter because he's also good at archery.

You should read it again, I also mentioned that green seers and wargs are different and not one in the same just like superman and green lantern both can fly but you cant say that they both are one in the same? Superman can do much more thn GL and have different powers and weaknesses. If you know what logic is and if you practiced it you will see it makes perfect sense.

Bloodraven isnt a warg he is a Green Seer and a Green Seer also has a warging ability amongst other great abilities but a simple warg has limitations where as a green seer has almost godly powers and it is even suggested in the books that powerfull green seers and Old golds might have some close connection as well but the fact remains the warging abilitiy was not with the first men when they came to westeros otherwise the original home of the first men (east) would have prob more wargs thn westeros.

I never said it was completely random. I'm saying that it probably is connected to First Men blood.

lol you just said it again, we are talking about people from westeros and the First men blood is in almost every house even wildlings

yet only Starks and wildlings show this ability (wargs not green seers) so if you say its connected to First men blood

that means it should be random in westeros since the very blood is in every house.

Again why only Starks?

[Azor Ahai Reborn]

zalim, please shut up.

[Dragonfish]

So you are saying just like Wildlings , Starks have most pure First men Blood? and thats why they have this ability?

No, I think it's more common among the wildlings because their blood is mostly pure First Men.

I am sure like Targs Starks never practiced incestuous marriages or did they? offcourse not. They have first men blood , they have blood of andals just like all

other houses but they also have blood of some wildling king in them.

What is it that sets wildling blood apart from everyone else, in your estimation?

You should read it again, I also mentioned that green seers and wargs are different and not one in the same just like superman and green lantern both can fly but you cant say that they both are one in the same? Superman can do much more thn GL and have different powers and weaknesses. If you know what logic is and if you practiced it you will see it makes perfect sense.

A greenseer is just an especially powerful warg. Here is how Bloodraven puts it:

"Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger...and only one skinchanger in a thousand can be greenseer."

You have to become a warg before you can be a greenseer. Therefore, if you need wildling blood to be a warg, then you must also need wildling blood to be a greenseer. Bloodraven does not have wildling blood, however, therefore it is doubtful that one must have wildling blood in order to be a warg or greenseer. If you know what logic is and if you practiced it you will see it makes perfect sense.

and it is even suggested in the books that powerfull green seers and Old golds might have some close connection as well but the fact remains the warging abilitiy was not with the first men when they came to westeros otherwise the original home of the first men (east) would have prob more wargs thn westeros.

Ah, but here I think you've already touched on one essential requirement for being a warg or greenseer: a connection to the old gods (and the weirwood trees). This would explain why the First Men didn't gain the ability to warg until they met the chilren and accepted the old gods as their own, and it would explain why virtually no one in the South is able to warg (except for Bloodraven, who's family worships the old gods).

lol you just said it again, we are talking about people from westeros and the First men blood is in almost every house even wildlings

Some have more First Men blood than others. Wildlings have the most, northerners have the next most, and southerners have the least. And of these groups, only wildlings and northerners still worship the old gods (with the exception of a few southern houses).