R+L=J v.16

[scurvy]

Rewatching the TV series, an interesting quote from a scene not in the books. Cersei and Robert in his chambers talking. Cersei says, "what harm could Lyanna Stark's ghost do to us now?" after they finish discussing the Targs with a Dothraki hoarde behind them.

I found the use of ghost to be somewhat telling given Ghost's relationship with Jon. All of the Direwolf's names have meaning and perhaps foretell their master's future to some degree. Bran foretells a future summer, Arya leads an army to reconquer the North like Nymeria conquered Dorne. and Jon is Lyanna Stark's ghost...

I know that the TV series is probably not considered canon, however, it's another piece to the puzzle.

[kephv]

Rewatching the TV series, an interesting quote from a scene not in the books. Cersei and Robert in his chambers talking. Cersei says, "what harm could Lyanna Stark's ghost do to us now?" after they finish discussing the Targs with a Dothraki hoarde behind them.

I found the use of ghost to be somewhat telling given Ghost's relationship with Jon. All of the Direwolf's names have meaning and perhaps foretell their master's future to some degree. Bran foretells a future summer, Arya leads an army to reconquer the North like Nymeria conquered Dorne. and Jon is Lyanna Stark's ghost...

I didn't even think of that. If that does end up being the case though... nice that they put that in there.

[Alia of the knife]

Rewatching the TV series, an interesting quote from a scene not in the books. Cersei and Robert in his chambers talking. Cersei says, "what harm could Lyanna Stark's ghost do to us now?" after they finish discussing the Targs with a Dothraki hoarde behind them.

I found the use of ghost to be somewhat telling given Ghost's relationship with Jon. All of the Direwolf's names have meaning and perhaps foretell their master's future to some degree. Bran foretells a future summer, Arya leads an army to reconquer the North like Nymeria conquered Dorne. and Jon is Lyanna Stark's ghost...

I know that the TV series is probably not considered canon, however, it's another piece to the puzzle.

Great catch.

I would almost love to see Arya get to Ramsey Bolton as much as Jon.

[Cydal]

But he was 'The Unlikely' because he was king even though he was the fourth son of a third son, or something like that, right? I don't remember any mention to what happened to his sisters. I remember checking the Targaryen family tree and not finding much info about it. I've often wondered if maester Aemon kept a journal of some sort. Something that could be found by someone...

He was the fourth son of a fourth son.

[Cydal]

But if Rhaegar hadn't changed his mind about the PTWP again, then why go through all the trouble he did with Lyanna? If Rhaegar just needed a third head of the dragon, then he could have "contracted" -for lack of a better word- a common woman to carry the child. Nobody would have minded if Rhaegar was sleeping around or had an acknowledged bastard. The problem was that he ran off with a high born noble woman and hid her in a tower in the middle of Dorne, thereby starting a war. In all likelihood, he decided that he needed to have a child with Lyanna Stark, the union of fire and ice, to fulfill the main prophecy itself. (And I am of the mind that Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna for prophecy purposes only. Lyanna probably went because she was infatuated with him, and before her brother and father's deaths, it probably sounded like an adventure.)

Also, the prophecy and the line of succession are two different things. I don't thing that Rhaegar would have ever put Jon ahead of Aegon in the line of succession. In fact, I don't think that Rhaegar even wanted to marry Lyanna as it would complicate the political situation when they returned to the Red Keep. Lyanna probably insisted that they get married before she would sleep with him.

Somehow I don't see Lyanna running off simply because of infatuation, I think Rhaegar really liked her. Selmy's words exactly were "Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna". I think he wanted and needed a third child yes but he that he really cared for Lyanna.

[Rickon The Fierce]

Everything in the books point to that Rhaegar loved Lyanna. IF Jon is indeed their child, then he must be the third head of the dragon.

And frankly if that is not the case, than Martin is much worse author than I give him credit for. After all this writing and making readers connect to the Jon, if he would simply do something like "Ha,ha, gotcha", and totally throw Jon out of the picture, it would be bad writing.

[Chalais]

Ok I was reading the thread asking if Ned ever really did love Jon and a question that was asked stuck out to me.

'If Jon really was Rhaegar's bastard and not Neds, then why not at least tell Catelyn the truth?"

It would certainly have spared her a lot of heartache and Ned quite a few headaches if she at least could take to the grave the truth of his fidelity to her.

Its not like she would have any reason to expose such a secret to the rest of Westeros, and being aware that Jon was Lyanna's bastard and not her husbands would probably have encouraged her to at least treat him with more kindness. Why such secrecy even from the woman whom he had grown so close too?

[Dragonfish]

Ok I was reading the thread asking if Ned ever really did love Jon and a question that was asked stuck out to me.

'If Jon really was Rhaegar's bastard and not Neds, then why not at least tell Catelyn the truth?"

It would certainly have spared her a lot of heartache and Ned quite a few headaches if she at least could take to the grave the truth of his fidelity to her.

Its not like she would have any reason to expose such a secret to the rest of Westeros, and being aware that Jon was Lyanna's bastard and not her husbands would probably have encouraged her to at least treat him with more kindness. Why such secrecy even from the woman whom he had grown so close too?

Several explanations:

1) Ned didn't know if he could trust Catelyn when they first met, so he had no choice but to lie to her then. Years later, when they became closer, he had already become so entrenched in the lies that revealing the truth to Catelyn might not have seemed like an option.

2) The more people who know a secret, the harder it is to keep it secret. Ned doesn't want to risk Jon's true parentage getting out, so he tells no one, no matter how much he thinks he can trust them.

3) Ned doesn't want to place his burden on anyone else. He is committing treason by harboring Jon, and doesn't want to implicate the people he loves in this dishonor. In other words, lying to Catelyn is his way of protecting her.

4) If Catelyn ends up treating Jon well, people might start to wonder what changed her attitude and become suspicious. This is something Ned cannot afford.

5) Alternatively, the truth might actually make Catelyn dislike Jon even more, since he represents an even greater to danger to her family as Rhaegar's son than he did as Ned's bastard. In fact, for all Ned knows, she might actually reveal the truth to the king in exchange for some sort of pardon for her family. In other words, Ned may not be able to trust Catelyn as much as everyone assumes.

[Cyberdalek]

I'm assuming, if the R+L=J theory is correct, that Ned took Jon as a child to avoid him being murdered for being a Targaryen spawn,(Also because it was his sister's child)

[Ghost Rider]

Several explanations:

4) If Catelyn ends up treating Jon well, people might start to wonder what changed her attitude and become suspicious. This is something Ned cannot afford.

5) Alternatively, the truth might actually make Catelyn dislike Jon even more, since he represents an even greater to danger to her family as Rhaegar's son than he did as Ned's bastard. In fact, for all Ned knows, she might actually reveal the truth to the king in exchange for some sort of pardon for her family. In other words, Ned may not be able to trust Catelyn as much as everyone assumes.

You know, I've seen your number 4 propogated several times in this forum, but I really lean toward number 5. I base my assumption on Ned's famous thoughts in Agot:

If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon’s life, against the children of her body?

The quote is remarkable not only for omitting Jon's name from the list of children, but even more so because of the imagined situation. He thinks that after Cersei confessed that she and Jaime were responsible for tossing Bran off the tower. So to save her own children's life, they intended to kill/harm Bran. Now Ned puts himself in her shoes. What would he do? Would he take the life "of a child he did not know" to save his own children? This unknown child represents a mortal danger to his own children, just like Bran did for Cersei's children via his knowledge of the Lannister Twincest. Now for Ned that's a hypothetical question, that's why the vague "a child I did not know".

For Cat however it's slightly different: It's not the vague "some child she did not know", but concretely "Jon's life". Why is that? I believe it's because Jon, in Ned's mind, is already associated with mortal danger. Now what would Cat do, if she knew about the danger that Jon represents to her children - a threat much bigger then the one she was already aware of (that he might try to steal her children's heritage). Ned answers this question: "He did not know. He prayed he never would." So what he's really saying is that he doesn't trust Cat with Jon's life, because she might chose that the life of her own children is much more important to her. And that's why I think, that "might dislike Jon more" is putting it very mildly. She would probably fear him and possibly even try to get rid of him. Cat isn't very rational where the life of her children is endangered. In no way do I think that she would have treated him any better.

[Cydal]

Ok I was reading the thread asking if Ned ever really did love Jon and a question that was asked stuck out to me.

'If Jon really was Rhaegar's bastard and not Neds, then why not at least tell Catelyn the truth?"

It would certainly have spared her a lot of heartache and Ned quite a few headaches if she at least could take to the grave the truth of his fidelity to her.

Its not like she would have any reason to expose such a secret to the rest of Westeros, and being aware that Jon was Lyanna's bastard and not her husbands would probably have encouraged her to at least treat him with more kindness. Why such secrecy even from the woman whom he had grown so close too?

many have asked this question and to be honest, I wouldn't have told Cat neither if she was my wife. She acts impulsively, Ned told her in AGOT that they couldn't do anything to the lannisters since they had no proof, and what did she do? she arrested Tyrion without thinking of the fact that two of her daughters and far away some where away from her protection where the Lannisters have armies closer to them than she or her husband does. Then she released Jaime without really thinking it through and we see how that didn't end well for her. Jaime would have been more of a danger to all her kids free as opposed to if he had been locked up. Sansa's safety was guaranteed as long as they had him captive. But no she had to do whatever.

Jon once said that Ned told him once that A good Lord or Leader should know all his men. Ned knew Cat and what she was capable of, that is why he never told her.

[Glyn Tarvoke]

excuse me, i missed the last couple of RL threads.. but why do you guys think Aegon was at the ToJ?

Aegon---->Jon Seems pretty close.

My guess is that the Aegon in Essos is probably "the mummer's dragon." My guess is that he is Illyrio M's son (Illyrio's beloved wife has the blond hair and purple eyes and my guess would explains why Illyrio seems to dote on the boy and is doing so much for him) rather than an actual Targaryon.

[Alia of the knife]

Aegon---->Jon Seems pretty close.

My guess is that the Aegon in Essos is probably "the mummer's dragon." My guess is that he is Illyrio M's son (Illyrio's beloved wife has the blond hair and purple eyes and my guess would explains why Illyrio seems to dote on the boy and is doing so much for him) rather than an actual Targaryon.

Yes, remember the statue on the pool that Tyrion first saw?

That sounded like a pretty good description of Aegon.

Just my speculation.

[Alia of the knife]

For the record, I would trust Cat with NOTHING.

She kidnaps Tyrion without really thinking it through, (and if your going to do something like that, you better have your ducks in a row).

She put Ned and her family in a bad situation.

And, she overstepped with Robb.

If that had ever been resolved, the newfound Dowager Queen of the North might have been put into "retirement."

[DaveSumm]

I think that Ned wouldn't tell Catelyn because it was probably the thing that Lyanna made him promise: raise this kid, don't tell anyone. Promise me Ned. Simple as that. And if ever there were a man to hold to a promise, it's Eddard Stark.

I haven't read through all these threads so I'm not completely up on all the evidence, but I'm tempted to think that Jon isn't Rhaegar and Lyanna's simply because it's the most obvious explanation. And the books generally don't trade in the most likely outcomes. Also, I know GRRM doesn't read forums but he MUST be aware that it's a theory that's out there. So then when the reveal comes, it'll be a case of 'yea, you were right...'. And then why build up the moment at all? So I hope it isn't true, for the sake of my enjoyment of the books if that makes sense.

[LadyMary]

I think that Ned wouldn't tell Catelyn because it was probably the thing that Lyanna made him promise: raise this kid, don't tell anyone. Promise me Ned. Simple as that. And if ever there were a man to hold to a promise, it's Eddard Stark.

I haven't read through all these threads so I'm not completely up on all the evidence, but I'm tempted to think that Jon isn't Rhaegar and Lyanna's simply because it's the most obvious explanation. And the books generally don't trade in the most likely outcomes. Also, I know GRRM doesn't read forums but he MUST be aware that it's a theory that's out there. So then when the reveal comes, it'll be a case of 'yea, you were right...'. And then why build up the moment at all? So I hope it isn't true, for the sake of my enjoyment of the books if that makes sense.

Actually, the most obvious explanation is that Jon is really Ned's son by some as-yet-unnamed woman, possibly the Lady Ashara Dayne (according to rumors) or a "common girl" named Wylla, according to Ned in his response to Robert. Speaking for myself and I know I'm not alone, it was not obvious that Rhaegar and Lyanna were Jon's parents. In fact when I first read the suggestion on someone's blog I thought it was crackpot...until I read the evidence all put together with little things from the books that seem more ambiguous in hindsight (i.e., the "promise me Ned" was not about being buried and Winterfell (which wouldn't cause Ned to live lies for 14 years) but may have related to Lyanna's "bed of blood" (childbirth), etc. It is the theory best supported by circumstantial evidence, and particularly by Ned's thoughts that clue us in to what he's really thinking, feeling and remembering. I think it's very clever how GRRM has woven these little gems into the "official" story of Jon's origin.

I don't think a majority of casual fans of these books/series would necessarily pick up on any of this, unless they spent some time at the fan forums. Even if there's less surprise at that revelation, there's still a question about how or if Jon will ever learn about his true parentage.

[timmos]

I tend to agree with the R+L=J Theories, but I've always wondered about this one problem: Are not the Targaryens all blonde haired and blue eyed? Not really Jon's description.

[Queen Regent]

Ok I was reading the thread asking if Ned ever really did love Jon and a question that was asked stuck out to me.

'If Jon really was Rhaegar's bastard and not Neds, then why not at least tell Catelyn the truth?"

I think it was to protect Catelyn and their children. If it was ever found out, Robert probably would have killed Jon and Ned both, but Catelyn could have denied knowing.

Or maybe he promised Lyanna to tell no one, to protect the baby.

[Ursa]

I tend to agree with the R+L=J Theories, but I've always wondered about this one problem: Are not the Targaryens all blonde haired and blue eyed? Not really Jon's description.

The "pureblood" ones are, due to generations of in-breeding. We've seen Half-Targaryens who aren't, such as Rhaegar's little girl, who looked like Elia.

[DaveSumm]

@Lady Mary You're right, I suppose I don't really mean obvious. I mean it's the most supported amongst fans.........perhaps I'm just in denial about it all because as I said, I can't see how the reveal (if it ever comes) will have any potency now.