Ned + Ashara = Allyria Dayne ?

[Winterfell is Burning]

Rhaegar fits the criteria and results best by far; and I think he is definitely the person that dishonored her.

If so, Rhaegar was just another Robert, heh (if not worse)? I like that. Curious to see what his apologists think of it.

[Brucolac]

Rhaegar was actively trying to fulfill a prophecy and thought that he had to sire more children. He had just realized Elia was not going to be have more children and he would have to take a mistress or second wife to do that. He actually saw it as his duty to be unfaithful. We don't really know of any incidents besides Lyanna, but Ashara seems like a likely candidate. They were acquainted through Arthur Dayne and Elia herself, and being Dornish, Ashara and Elia both might have been open to the idea. She seems a good choice if he is just looking to find a mother for a third child, and they might have acted upon it before he falls in love with Lyanna at the end of the tournament. Robert really didn't have any justification for affairs other than he took what he wanted. Then again, since Cersei wouldn't give it up, maybe he had more reason.

[blackseer]

If Rhaegar had dishonored Ashara, wouldn't there be any kind of rumor about it, or at least people talking about it? And wouldn't Barristan know about it and relate the memory of his love to his prince in some fashion?

[ARYa_Nym]

I think Rhaegar and Arthur's relationship would have soured if it had been him. Arthur seemed loyal to him to the end. There wasn't a note of him being there when Brandon and Rickard were burned so perhaps he was always with Rhaegar and the other 2 KG showed up later.

[Jem]

If Rhaegar had dishonored Ashara, wouldn't there be any kind of rumor about it, or at least people talking about it? And wouldn't Barristan know about it and relate the memory of his love to his prince in some fashion?

Well if Rhaegar and Ashara were having an affair, they could have kept it discreet as Ashara was residing in the Red Keep as a lady-in-waiting to Elia. Presumably some people would know, some of the Kingsguard, some servants, but not necessarily a lot of people.

I'm speculating that Barristan didn't know about it until Harrenhal. Maybe Barristan didn't usually guard Rhaegar at the Red Keep, maybe one of the younger KG like Arthur Dayne was usually on 'Rhaegar detail'. But at Harrenhal, the royal household was out of their usual environment and routine and maybe Barristan was temporarily given charge of Rhaegar during the tourney. Maybe this was when Barristan first saw Ashara and Rheagar together and as this was the first time Barristan saw this, he thought it was the first time it had happened and interpreted the situation not as an ongoing relationship, but as a one night stand that caused Ashara to be 'dishonored'.

So Ashara thinks that she is someone special to Rhaegar - and Rhaegar also quite likes Ashrara, too. He wants more children and Ashara is happy to oblige. But at Harrenhal Rhaegar meets Lyanna. Either he falls in love/lust with her and/or he thinks she would make a better mother for his prophecy child. Either way, Rhaegar makes his feelings towards Lyanna clear, namely by giving her the crown of love and beauty. This naturally upsets Ashara, she is off crying somewhere, and Barristan sees one of the Stark boys giving her a bit of a cuddle and wiping her tears.

Barristan wishes that he had won the tourney because then Rhaegar would not have upset Ashara by giving the crown to Lyanna. Also, if Barristan had won, Ashara may have turned to him when/if she broke up with Rhaegar. And also, if Barristan won he would have removed the first opportunity for Rhaegar to demonstrate his love for Lyanna - in hindsight Barristan may believe that if he won, the Rebellion may never have started.

[MtnLion]

I see no reason for Barristan or any of the White Swords to know about Rhaegar and Ashara. Elia may have known, but that is beside the point. Barristan only notices the aftermath of Rhaegar giving the crown to Lyanna, and apparently discovered that Ashara had gotten pregnant circa Harrenhal. Ned even noticed that everyone was impacted by Rhaegar giving the crown to Lyanna, "all smiles died". Of course GRRM could just be toying with us and announce at the end that Barristan knew who the man was, but hid it from himself. That would make it apparent that his suggestion of grief over the man could have contributed to her suicide.

ETA: I will need to check, but it seems to me that Elia was pregnant with Aegon at Harrenhal, so the affair began before they had confirmation that Elia could have no more children ...?

[Jem]

ETA: I will need to check, but it seems to me that Elia was pregnant with Aegon at Harrenhal, so the affair began before they had confirmation that Elia could have no more children ...?

With such fuzzy timelines, it is hard to know. It is possible that Elia became pregnant with her second child either just before, just after or even at Harrenhal (maybe +/- 1-3 months either side). Considering Elia's health, I find it hard to believe that she would travel to Harrenhal while pregnant - although she might not have know she was pregnant at the time.

My feeling is that she fell pregnant sometime just after Harrenhal. It is possible that Rhaegar was trying to get two women (Elia and Ashara) pregnant concurrently - especially if he felt that time was of the essence.

[Brucolac]

Aearys was probably using the Kingsguard to spy on Rhaegar, and he could have witnessed something while watching him. If Barristan knows something that is contrary to all the rumors that spread about Ashara and Eddard, that might be the reason why and the person he is talking about.

[corbon]

Sorry, it is pretty clear from the quoted passage that Barristan believes that the crowning at the end could have changed the outcome. This was after five days of jousting, remember, it was the conclusion.

Err, exactly. Which is why I suggested the dishonouring itself might have happened post-tourney (even if a romance started during the tourney). If Barristan wins the tourney and crowns Ashara, he feels perhaps she wouldn't have let herself be dishonoured later if she knew she had a 'true' lover.

Sorry, Ser Arthur Dayne carries a plain white shield as all of the King's Guard (white swords) do. Page 912 SoS: White Sword tower is the King's Guard tower. Page 901: The Red Viper of Dorne names them "White Swords". There are many more, but "white sword" can refer the King's Guard as much as it can refer to Dawn. In Meera's story it refers to a person, hence must be any of the present King's Guard.

Sure, but the fact still remains that Arthur Dayne is the most likely candidate. His emblem is the white sword. Yes, the KG as a collective are called white swords, which makes it possible it was any of them, but when naming a singular, one doesn't generally use a collective term, especially not when the individuals within the collective can be differentiated by their individual emblems/names.

Ser Gerold Hightower is known as the White Bull.

Ser Arthur Dayne is known as the Sword of the Morning, and all in White.

Besides, a young unmarried woman, of course she's going to dance with her brother, or hang out with a brother around.

Its also a notable group for all being around the same age - 20-25ish and several of the other KG don't fit within that bracket s mentioned already.

Agree, it is not reasonable to limit the possible perpetrators to those who danced with Ashara, but fishing without bait can be fruitless. Let's pick the fieriest one fo the group as prime suspect, and leave it there, unless Barristan wants to name him. Since Barristan does not want to name him, I would prefer to think his name is Rhaegar or Oberyn, and after any named dancers we can turn out attention elsewhere.

Its funny. You say fishing wothout bait is fruitless (fair enough), but then pick someone not mentioned as being part of that group and ignore someone specifically mentioned as part of the group (even if not dancing). Brandon Stark was there, part of the group connected to Ashara, the same age and status as the others, known to be ... shall we say, loose, with young noblewomen and known for a very high degree of 'wolf's blood' and rash behaviour.

But you ignore him in favour of someone that everyone who knew him had great respect for, even people who disparage his father and nephew.

So, young girls are never attracted to older men, say the age of their fathers? Honestly the obvious answer has been pointed out, Rhaegar had an affair with Ashara, but at Harrenhal he ran into the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and fell in love.

Sometimes they are, but more often they are attracted to fiery young men, rather than older one.

And Barristan thinks that young women always go for fiery men (that burn out fast), not solid mud-men (that build something to grow from and flower in). Barristan whose experience (that we know of) is pretty much limited to Dany and... Ashara.

Rhaegar is represented as a melancholic, serious, quiet type - to the extent that a number of people claim he was seriously depressive.

There is zero evidence for any Rhaegar affairs before Harrenhal.

Rhaegar fits the criteria and results best by far; and I think he is definitely the person that dishonored her.

There are plenty of old men and young women getting together in these books, I just don't like them for this romance.

Rhaegar doesn't fit at all. He's not part of the group mentioned, he's not mentioned by any character as being wild or loose or lusty (just some posters who build a huge amount out of Rhaegar's character from one incident, about which very little is known, the abduction of Lyanna, and ignore what all the characters who knew him say). He's not a fiery type, he's not actually linked in any way romantically to Ashara.

Furthermore, she is his wife's handmaid and his best friend's maiden sister. That's the very last person you want to have an affair with.

The whole Rhaegar is a man-whore thing just isn't borne out by the texts. It is entirely made up out of people twisting things, just like this.

That said, its not impossible. Rhaegar is a possible candidate.

Brandon is there, is known to have talked with Ashara and got her to do his bidding ("please dance with my shy little brother", "ok"), is known to be not averse to sleeping with noble maidens, is known to like to take what he wanted and is known to be rash and fiery. He is also an excellent 'catch' (remember Ashara probably had a choice here - a rape would have been a very big deal for enmity and compensation). He died horribly in (just before) the war. He fits any and every criteria anyone could ask for for Ashara's lover and is by a wide, wide margin the best candidate.

It also fits perfectly in with the rest of the story, explaining why Ned felt it necessary to return Arthur's body to Starfall - he bears brotherly guilt (how Ned!) for the shameful way his brother treated the Daynes. So he has to go out of his way to show them the utmost respect in every way possible.

[LadyMary]

or she makes herself look like a woman scorned. and we all know that hell hath no fury quite like that.

Exactly my thoughts. I'm sure Roose Bolton is aware that Barbrey's feelings about the Starks are more complicated than just hating on Ned for taking her husband off to die in the war. Roose knows she's a woman who can nurse a long, long grudge and that's basically the only reason she's thrown her support behind the Boltons. The fact that she's the jilted lover/woman scorned adds to her credibility in that regard.

I absolutely believe that Barbrey loved Brandon. She believed that he loved her and would have married but she knew that she wasn't his only conquest. Maybe she's in denial that he was just using her, or maybe it was true love. It doesn't matter because Rickard and the Maester plotted for his sons to marry southern women and that's just another slight for which she harbors a grudge.

I can also believe that Barbrey told Theon of all people because she wanted him to take it back to Ramsay. Whether it was to convince the bastard that she is sincere or because she's trying to deflect suspicion because she's actually conspiring against them, I've no idea.

Anyway, on topic, I assumed Allyria was more of an adult than a teenager, but maybe I missed something in the reading. If she is really the "stillborn" daughter of Ned and Ashara (or Brandon and Ashara) raised as Ashara's sister, I suppose it works. She'd be 15 or 16 at the time Edric meets up with Arya, assuming she was conceived at Harrenhal and it seems that's an appropriate age for a betrothal. I suppose that works, if she's the youngest "sister" of Arthur, Ashara and their mystery sibling.

[spork]

Edited to delete a misplaced comment.

[Brucolac]

Talk about people twisting things; one person says she sleeps with Brandon and people start pretending he has deflowered the entire seven kingdoms. He is dead as much as two years before her suicide and possibly before she would have conceived a child even. It doesn't make sense for Barristan to associate that as a reason for her suicide if it is talking about him. Rhaegar and Arthur Dayne die at the right time, and Eddard marriage fit the grief for the man she had lost comment. There is no way to make Brandon fit that in a sensible manner.

[spork]

Arthur Dayne was killed in a fair fight; even if they aren't happy about it how can you blame someone else when he was putting himself in danger with his calling and eventually died because of it. You still can't tell who is to blame for her death, if she even is dead, or Dornish views on suicide. It looks like Stark tried to help her at some point based off that memory, and whether he or someone else was the person that dishonored her can't be determined.

Yeah, but you can't use that logic. Look at Lord Karstark - his sons died valiantly, doing their duty to guard Robb, yet he was royally pissed at Jaime. One would expect something similar from the Daynes.

[corbon]

Talk about people twisting things; one person says she sleeps with Brandon and people start pretending he has deflowered the entire seven kingdoms.

Unfortunately some people do do that. But most sensible people note that it is just a reinforcing aspect of his character, and don't make him instantly the father of 20+ bastards to 20+ different women. There are idiots on both sides of the fence.

OTOH Rhaegar does one thing out of place, which we know very very little about, and the opposite idiots suddenly are convinced he is the one recklessly sleeping with every noblewoman in the kingdom - despite the glowing character references we have of him that paint completely the opposite picture (even from people willing to disparage Aerys and Viserys).

He is dead as much as two years before her suicide and possibly before she would have conceived a child even. It doesn't make sense for Barristan to associate that as a reason for her suicide if it is talking about him. Rhaegar and Arthur Dayne die at the right time, and Eddard marriage fit the grief for the man she had lost comment. There is no way to make Brandon fit that in a sensible manner.

Try again with your time-lining. Brandons death is at most a bit over a year, before her suicide.

If fits easily.

You seem to be using Barristan's comment about grief for the man who dishonoured her as time-lining her stillborn child.

But everything else points to the dishonouring being at Harrenhal, or shortly afterward. After all, that's why we are discussing the potentials as coming from the group she was with at that time. People are arguing Rhaegar was having an affair with Ashara before Harrenhal!

Barristan's comment is the one out of place with the rest, and it can fit for two reasons. Firstly, as far as we know, he isn't connected to Ashara again between Harrenhal and her death (though she probably remaining in Elia's service for some time afterward, at very least until she found herself pregnant, and thus Barristan could be 'around' her for that time). At the time of her supposed suicide he is in fact recovering from serious wounds suffered at the Trident. He has almost certainly had little or no contact with her for at least a year or so.

Secondly, Barristan is an old man. These are events which happened twenty years or so ago. It is easy for him to compress events in his mind, expecially if he didn't see a lot of Ashara after Harrenhal, so that he thinks her 'suicide' is 'soon' after the death of the man who dishonoured her and could be connected. IF it is even connected at all - it's just his personal supposition that it might be.

So twenty years ago, Barristan was an indirect witness to the woman he loved being dishonoured, then a rebellion happening, then he is badly wounded (incapacitated) during the culminating battle of the war, then he hears about his beloved's suicide, all within the space of 2-3 years, with a stillborn girl supposedly born as a result of the dishonouring sometime in the middle. To him her suicide could just as easily be 'soon after' the death of Brandon before the war as Rhaegar at the end of the war. A year can easily become as nothing in the memory of an old man who experienced so much at the time, 20 years back.

So Barristan thinks she was maybe depressed at the loss of her child, then more at the news of her lover's death (maybe). Then when Ned bring's her brother's corpse that is the straw that breaks the camels back and she suicides, Barristan things maybe because of her stillborn child and lover's deaths.

Frankly I don't believe she suicided at all, and Barristan really doesn't have much clue about much that happened with her post-Harrenhal, but we will see i suppose.

Our best guess is that the 'dishonour' was at or close in time to Harrenhal. Which was 1-2 years before the war.

We don't know when her stillborn girl was born and even Barristan's timing is very vague.

But we do guess that it was conceived before Rhaegar 'abducted' Lyanna. Which means that Brandon is at least as likely, indeed far far more likely for multiple reasons, than Rhaegar.

In order to rule out Brandon, you have to paint Rhaegar as such a hound dog that he was basically double-dipping with Ashara and Lyanna at the same time.

Which is in no way suported by any textual evidence in the slightest detail. Not even by his worst enemies.

[corbon]

Yeah, but you can't use that logic. Look at Lord Karstark - his sons died valiantly, doing their duty to guard Robb, yet he was royally pissed at Jaime. One would expect something similar from the Daynes.

Not everyone is a raving barbarian nutter, err, I mean, extreme northern Lord.

Karstark's attitude is shown to be unreasonable even amongst the northmen.

Not that they are happy with Robb's response though.

[Brucolac]

Yeah, I got to read the Barristan time compression in the other thread. It is just as weak here. Barristan knows when Brandon Stark died and when Ashara died because he has an easy point of reference for both of them. One of them starts the war and the other is after the war is over. It seems that he knows about the details of her pregnancy as well, either first or second hand, and he is associating the events of her stillbirth and the death of some man who dishonored her at Harrenhall as the cause for her suicide. There is no way he would add that as a cause if he was talking about Brandon. He would know Brandon had been dead for years at the time of her death. If you want to start discounting parts of what he is saying, you might as well discount the dishonored part too, it could be just as much speculation as the reasons for her killing herself. He might be using second hand knowledge or rumors again.

It is clear that he is associating grief for the said man as a possible reason, he doesn't have to know what her reasons actually are. He thinks that her suicide could in part been caused by someone who died, and that makes it very unlikely to be Brandon because he was long dead before she kills herself and Barristan knows that.

[Dragonfish]

Yeah, I got to read the Barristan time compression in the other thread. It is just as weak here. Barristan knows when Brandon Stark died and when Ashara died because he has an easy point of reference for both of them. One of them starts the war and the other is after the war is over. It seems that he knows about the details of her pregnancy as well, either first or second hand, and he is associating the events of her stillbirth and the death of some man who dishonored her at Harrenhall as the cause for her suicide.

Well, Barristan does say that she "perhaps" killed herself out of grief for this man, which implies that he's not entirely sure. We don't know when this man's death occurred, but if it occurred within close proximity to her own suicide, you'd think Barristan wouldn't be so unsure.

Besides, if Rhaegar was the man who dishonored her, and Barristan knew about this, then his incredibly positive attitude toward Rhaegar wouldn't make sense. Not to mention this passage (p. 879), which all but kills this theory:

"Rhaegar had chosen Lyanna of Winterfell. Barristan Selmy would have made a different choice."

The thing is, if Barristan knew about Rhaegar and Ashara's affair, then he'd not only know that Rhaegar did make a different choice at one point, but also that he made the same choice Barristan would have made. In other words, Barristan's comment here makes absolutely no sense if he knew about this supposed affair.

Now, it's possible Barristan didn't know about Rhaegar's affair with Ashara. But if so, then you can't really use his comments as support for this theory. After all, if Barristan doesn't actually know who Ashara's real lover is, then his comments about the cause of her suicide are just his own baseless supposition, and do not in any way support the idea that this mystery man's death had to have occurred soon before Ashara's. So the moral of the story is, the Rhaegar-as-Ashara's-lover theory has absolutely no support.

[ARYa_Nym]

The thing is with these theories is that we're assuming that Barriston knows more about Ashara than her own family. Perhaps little Ned's father had a different story than Allyria did though.

Either way I don't think that Barriston is a liar but I don't think that he has his info 100% correct. How did he know that the child died? He was told this but he couldn't have seen it. If Arthur was missing at the TOJ for months than I doubt that he was his source.

& if she was dishonored why didn't she use moontea? If it was Rhaegar or Brandon they both were occupied with other women and couldn't marry her. Brandon was engaged so she couldn't have expected marriage. & Rhaegar made it clear at Harrenhal that Lyanna was his queen of love and beauty.

[History of Westeros]

I haven't thought it through, so perhaps this is impossible for some reason. Could Aerys have forced himself on Ashara?

[corbon]

If you want to start discounting parts of what he is saying, you might as well discount the dishonored part too, it could be just as much speculation as the reasons for her killing herself. He might be using second hand knowledge or rumors again.

I'm not discounting anything, I'm looking at Barristan's evidence with an eye to reliability and how it fits with everything else.

Everyone is an unreliable witness to one degree or another. I think it is clear Barristan is being 'truthful' in that it is in his own mind, so no reason to lie, but it is also clear that is he is not a first person witness to most of this and is speculating to some degree on much of what he thinks he knows. How much information he actually has, and how reliable that information is, isn't possible to tell.

So between his uncertainty, his lack of first person knowledge, and his recall of events 20 years in the past, I'm prepared to say he may have the gist of things generally right (especially about characters and events at Harrenhal where he actually was and was in love with Ashara) but not necessarily the fine details thereafter.

It is clear that he is associating grief for the said man as a possible reason, he doesn't have to know what her reasons actually are. He thinks that her suicide could in part been caused by someone who died, and that makes it very unlikely to be Brandon because he was long dead before she kills herself and Barristan knows that.

Well, you claim 'years', but in fact it is about 1 year between the death of Brandon and the death of Rhaegar.

That simply is not a long time for an old person, when talking about events 20 years in the past.

I understand how this doesn't gel for everybody. But I fail to see how a claim that Rhaegar could be Ashara's beau is not dismissed by the exact same timeline as Brandon. Rhaegar shacking up with Lyanna happens before Brandon's death. So if the stillborn girl's death is only a few months before Rhaegar's then Rhaegar has been playing around with Ashara at more or less the same time as he is "abducting" Lyanna.

I find that far more ridiculous than the notion that 1 year, 20 years ago, is not a great amount of time for a pensioner.