Ned + Ashara = Allyria Dayne ?

[MtnLion]

Are you seriously trying to exclude the man who rode up to the red keep and shouted for Rhaegar to "come out and die" on the grounds that it wouldn't be sensible for him to sleep around? :stunned:

No, I exclude him, because even if you believe Lady Dustin's story 100%, he cut off his relationship with her because he was betrothed. For him to start another affair after becoming betrothed is not sensible. If he was willing to have affairs while betrothed, why would he stop seeing Lady Dustin?

[blackseer]

No, I exclude him, because even if you believe Lady Dustin's story 100%, he cut off his relationship with her because he was betrothed. For him to start another affair after becoming betrothed is not sensible. If he was willing to have affairs while betrothed, why would he stop seeing Lady Dustin?

When did she say he cut off relations with her because he was betrothed?

[Dragonfish]

When did she say he cut off relations with her because he was betrothed?

IIRC, the book never tells us when Brandon cut off their relationship. It could have lasted up to several months before Brandon was killed (but not any longer, because there needs to be time for Barbrey to marry someone else before the war begins). EDIT--Actually, it would probably have had to have been some time earlier than that, to give Barbrey's father time to "nurse some hope" that she could be married to Eddard. But this still doesn't indicate that their relationship was broken off as soon as Brandon was betrothed, as his betrothal itself lasted several years.

[MtnLion]

When did she say he cut off relations with her because he was betrothed?

To Theon, in the crypts. That is immaterial in my mind, I don't see even 10% truth isn what she said in the crypts. I believe she wanted Brandon, but never could have him, especially after he was betrothed. If she wanted her husbands bones so bad, would it have been terribly difficult for Ned or one of his men make the trip (over the fifteen intervening years) to return them from the Tower of Joy? Nope. She is just spreading fertilizer to make sure that the Boltons continue to trust her, while she peeks at what she wants to see in the crypts.

[Dragonfish]

To Theon, in the crypts.

No, she never actually tells Theon when her last night with Brandon was.

[blackseer]

No, she never actually tells Theon when her last night with Brandon was.

So, the evidence that he wouldn't betray his betrothed is false. It's just another theory.

[MtnLion]

No, she never actually tells Theon when her last night with Brandon was.

So, you're saying that she never said they had a last meeting?

[Dragonfish]

So, you're saying that she never said they had a last meeting?

No, I'm saying she never tells us when he broke it off. For all we know he continued the relationship for several years into his betrothal.

[corbon]

No, I'm saying she never tells us when he broke it off. For all we know he continued the relationship for several years into his betrothal.

What relationship? Remember, more than 90% of what she says is false. But her words can still exclude someone. :bs:

[M'lady Cynthia Rayder]

N+A=V

[TurnipKnight]

Here are a collection of facts from the books.

1. Edric Dayne - "My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhall..."

2. Harwin - "Aye, he told me. Lady Ashara Dayne. It's an old tale, that one. I heard it once at Winterfell, when I was no older than you are now...." "...When Ned met this Dornish lady his brother Brandon was still alive and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn..."

3. Meera - "The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf... but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench."

4. Selmy "But Ashara's daughter had been stilborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well..." "...If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty might she have looked to me instead of Stark?"

I can't find my copy of AGoT but I remember Ned saying the only people left alive after the ToJ incident were him and HR. He pulled the tower down, made cairns w/ the stones, and returned the Sword to Starfall.

The only quote from the book that implies even the slightest ambiguity between Ashara and her lover is Selmy's, and even then we know it was a Stark. Everything else points to Ned and her being involved in someway. The rumors flying around the seven kingdoms involve NED + ASHARA. Whether it's Winterfell, The Neck, or Dorne.

I believe if Rhaegar were involved in anyway it would be all over the realm (people have mention him and Lyanna enough, why leave Ashara out of it?), and if it were Brandon I don't think we would hear nothing but her connection to Ned.

I am positive that Ashara's boy toy was Ned. As to Allyria being their child, after reviewing the timeline and the lack of proof behind Ashara's death; I'm more than open to it's potential for being true. But Ned would have to have had NO KNOWLEDGE of her for it to work.

[corbon]

Here are a collection of facts from the books.

Correction. Here is a collection of stuff people in the books think. Opinions, not facts.

1. Edric Dayne - "My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhall..."

Edric wasn't born at the time, and our best guess of Edric's Aunt Allyria's age puts her as unborn or literally a baby at the time*. Allyria probably never spoke with Ashara, despite being her sister.

In short, Edric's 'evidence' is at very best third hand gossip. Frankly its the same rumour as everyone else knows (see below), given seeming strength by being repeated by a relative

* Allyria is betrothed, but not yet married, to Beric Dondarrion. As Beric was in his early-mid twenties, it seems highly likely that Allyria is younger, and probably quite a bit younger - the betrothal is a number of years old and the most likely reason for dealy is that the bride is yet too young.

There are also reasons why the Daynes might approve of such a rumour, whether they know it to be false or not. The Daynes were strong Targaryen supporters. If R+L=J is true, then rumours of Ashara being the mother of Jon would explain purple eyes if baby Jon Targaryen happened to develop them (he did not, but you can't tell with babies immediately). And Ashara has a very good chance of being Septa Lemore, which means having an explainable reason for her 'suicide' makes a good cover for her disappearance on a secret mission to care for the real (at least as far as she/they knows) Targaryen heir.

Besides, its just a better story for the family histories as a tragic suicide after her lover took her baby than a 'normal' suicide.

2. Harwin - "Aye, he told me. Lady Ashara Dayne. It's an old tale, that one. I heard it once at Winterfell, when I was no older than you are now...." "...When Ned met this Dornish lady his brother Brandon was still alive and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn..."

Again, its third hand information at best. The teller of the tale heard it at WInterfell so he certainly wasn't at Harrenhal or anywhere where Ned and Ashara were together.

3. Meera - "The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf... but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench."

Now this is almost an eye-witness, sort of. We assume that the crannogman is Howland, and he has told the story of what he witnessed himself to his children, who are telling Bran.

But it doesn't actually tell us Ned had a relationship with Ashara. At best it hints that Ned had a crush on Ashara (too shy to leave his bench, although that shyness may not have been due to Ashara at all, it isn't clear (I think it was myself)). And if you note, the person who 'set up' Ned's dance, was actually Brandon. So Ashara did what Brandon asked her too. You'll also note that the rest of the party named, Brandon, Oberyn, Connington and a KG (probably her brother Arthur) are all more 'senior' than Ned, generally older, more established etc, compared to shy hick Ned who is just 18. Usually th popular girl who is hanging out with the really cool guys screws up with a cool-wild guy, not the boring, wimpy, shy little brother. Usually.

You've also missed that even Cersei thinks that Ned and Ashara had a thing.

But she just has the same rumour as everyone else and is equally lacking in first hand knowledge of any events or people involved.

It's pretty straightforward.

After the war, Ned disappeared for a short while.

He reappeared at Starfall, Ashara's home, and he left Starfall with a baby which he acknowledged as his bastard while the young noblewoman at starfall, known to have been disgraced by a man, killed herself.

There may additionally been rumours from Harrenhal already, about a Stark (that she looked too), so people just assumed after the fact that that must have been Ned.

The whole of westeros, practically, thinks Ned and Ashara were an item just from this general public knowledge about post-war events (except Robert, who knows Ned better and is more ready to believe that Ned might slip up with a serving girl than dishonour a noblewoman).

Thats why we get basically the same rumour from sources all round westeros. Everyone 'knows' this history of the great Lord Stark, the King's best friend, and his mysterious Bastard.

That doesn't make them all right though. It just means they all used the same flawed data to come to the same logical conclusion.

4. Selmy "But Ashara's daughter had been stilborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well..." "...If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty might she have looked to me instead of Stark?"

The only quote from the book that implies even the slightest ambiguity between Ashara and her lover is Selmy's, and even then we know it was a Stark. Everything else points to Ned and her being involved in someway. The rumors flying around the seven kingdoms involve NED + ASHARA. Whether it's Winterfell, The Neck, or Dorne.

Actually, as pointed out by others, it says she was dishonoured by 'the man' and looked to 'a Stark'. The two may not necessarily be one and the same (though I think they are). Either way, Brandon fits equally as well as Ned here.

And as for having lost the man, if it was Ned, he's married to another, Brandon he's dead, even Rhaegar or Aerys (crackpot theories IMO, but possible) are also lost to her.

Barristan also thought to himself that young girls always go for 'firey men' and ignore 'mud men' who would be better for them. He's thinking of Dany at the time, but one girl alone does not make an 'always' and the other girl we know Barristan has experience with choosing a man is Ashara Dayne. Therefore Ashara chose a fire-man rather than a mud-man.

Ned is a mud man 100%, Brandon is a fire man 100%. Brandon was taller, stronger, better looking, a better swordsman, more confident, heir to high position. Everything a young (and foolish) girl could possibly want in a man.

Next we have character. Brandon has an actual first hand record of being willing to deflower a noble virgin maid. Compared to overly honourable Ned?

Finally we have Ned's bitter admission that everything was always for Brandon. Everything was always for Brandon, in terms of lands, titles, position, etc. It was the reality of Neds whole life until around 20yrs old, when suddenly he got the whole lot dumped in his lap. So why would Ned be bitter about that? Unless Brandon also got the one thing that Ned wanted that was not Brandon's right (and discarded it like a used rag because he didn't really want it) - Ashara Dayne.

[Brucolac]

Finally we have Ned's bitter admission that everything was always for Brandon. Everything was always for Brandon, in terms of lands, titles, position, etc.

Since when did self doubt become bitter? The quote is this:

That brought a bitter twist to Ned’s mouth. “Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King’s Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me.”

You are interpreting Neds' facial expresion as bitter feelings about his brother when based off what he says, it is about the situation he is and not feeling adequate for it. Bitter twist to the mouth isn't exactly a bitter admission either. His mood through this entire conversation is not wanting to except the handship and being unhappy about it.

Points about Barristans thoughts of mud and fire and because he slept with one person he slept with everyone are equally impressive as evidence, which is to say not at all.

[Ladywhiskers]

Ned + Ashara = Allyria Dayne, could it be ?

This theory pops up from time to time on this forum and I think it deserves its own topic.

We know from Barristan Selmy that Ashara had gave birth to a stillborn daughter most probably conceived during the Harrenhal tourney. The suspected father is a Stark. These two facts are not widely known in Westeros. Barristan most probably knows them only due the fact, that he was a sworn brother to Arthur Dayne. However there is a gossip that Ned and Ashara have an affair. And thanks to Meera's story we know it is build on something.

A lot of people thinks that Ned would not "dishonor" Ashara, but none of them was even betrothed at the time. Considering Ned's nature and dornish culture I have a strong suspicion, that it was Ashara who pushed their relationship to next level.

Now, what we know about Allyria Dayne? She is supposedly Ashara's younger sister. At the beginning of AGoT she is betrothed to Beric Dondarrion meaning her age is most probably somewhere between twelve and eighteen at that time.

It's her who tells her nephew about Ashara/Ned. Maybe she knows her origins and that is why she is interested in that ancient gossip or maybe she is somehow naturally drawn to this part of family history. It remind me little of Edric Storm and his obsession with Robert.

Eddard never thinks about her, and most people would agree that there is no chance he wouldn't think about his child, natural or not. But maybe he never knew.

Last small argument is Allyria's name. It's an (really) imperfect anagram of both Arya and Lya (nickname Ned uses once for his sister).

There are hidden Targs everywhere, why not at least one "Stark"? So, what do you think?

I think he'd think a LOT more about Ashara Dayne if it were the case, but anything's possible.

[TurnipKnight]

Again, its third hand information at best. The teller of the tale heard it at WInterfell so he certainly wasn't at Harrenhal or anywhere where Ned and Ashara were together.

Obviously this information is hearsay. Excuse me for saying facts, when I meant quotes.

The problem with over analyzing this plot device is people start treating it as something as large as "who sent the assassin to kill Bran?" Or, "Who will be the next to betray Dany?"

These are one time mentions from a wide array of characters, over the course of five books, that might amount to around six sentences total. Saying that it is more likely to be Brandon based on sub-text and delving into these minute points, like Dustin telling Theon that Brandon took her virginity, or the fact that he talked to Ashara for Ned is reading too much into things. You start to attribute quotes from a character to the wrong things in hopes of justifying your more complex, more unlikely theory. Like Ned's quote of everything being for Brandon in AGoT. Which was the quote from a second son who never expected to rule, and had not even a hint of bitterness towards a stolen love in it anywhere.

[corbon]

The problem with over analyzing this plot device is people start treating it as something as large as "who sent the assassin to kill Bran?" Or, "Who will be the next to betray Dany?"

Up to you. We know people are unreliable witnesses - GRRM has made a specific point of it and we've seen Sansa misremember something she herself actually experienced under our eyes.

The only people who actually make a solid N+A connection were never there and not involved, and have a logical reason to make that correction whether it is true or not.

Howland Reed's evidence is totally ambiguous.

Barristan's is totally ambiguous, if not leaning away from Ned and toward Brandon.

Ned's evidence of character and thought doesn't match with a N+A relationship.

Lady Dustin's evidence does support Brandon.

I'm not ruling out Ned, by any means. Just pointing out that it is very far from as open and shut case as you presented.

You may choose what evidence you wish to ignore or discount (as Brucolac does, but we've had that argument elsewhere) as you see fit. Go for it.

[corbon]

You are interpreting Neds' facial expresion as bitter feelings about his brother when based off what he says, it is about the situation he is and not feeling adequate for it. Bitter twist to the mouth isn't exactly a bitter admission either. His mood through this entire conversation is not wanting to except the handship and being unhappy about it.

Nonetheless, the bitter twist to the mouth only comes when he thinks of Brandon. And then inmediately how Brandon would know what to do (despite Brandon screwing everything up after Lyanna's 'abduction') and 'everything' was always for Brandon.

You might be right. Or maybe you aren't.

Points about Barristans thoughts of mud and fire and because he slept with one person he slept with everyone are equally impressive as evidence, which is to say not at all.

Lets not go there. They don't impress you because you choose not to be impressed. We've had this argument elsewhere IIRC. Impressive to you or not, they are evidence. Lets just leave it at that.

Except for the same old bullshit about Brandon sleeping with everybody. For the millionth time, no one claimed that.

[ARYa_Nym]

Could Allyria Dayne's source have been Edric Dayne's father? He's dead now but we don't know when he died.

[Gala]

It is an interesting topic and I would like to drop in.

As far as I remember Ashara committed suicide after Ned brought the Dawn home, which is an official version. why not before that? According to the story, her baby had been dead already and Brandon had been also dead for a while, why would she kill herself after Ned's appearance? My personal opinion that her suicide is a cover story for Jon (I presume R+L=J), while her servant Wylla (as far as I know Wylla was and is a servant of the Daynes) is a wet-nurse for Jon. the idea of Allyria to be Brandon's or Ned's daughter fits. For example, if she is Brandon's daughter it is a perfect cover for her dishonoring to tell that Allyria is actually her sister. If it's Ned the father (possibly, because he wasn't engage at that time or promised to anybody, therefore, they could fall in love, and his older brother, who was a Wild Wolf, encouraged him to go with Ashara "till the end") claiming the girl to be stillborn and making her "a sister" also fits, because Ned's wouldn't be able to restore Ashara's honor in any way: he was already married to Cat or was promised, and we know that their marriage was essential for the rebellion due to political reasons.

May be Ned and Daynes made an arrangements: to cover dishonor and to fake Allyria and Jon's identities/parentage due to obvious reasons, as well Ashara committing suicide. On the other hand, Daynes seem to have some respect for Ned, therefore, I am inclined to think that the father was Brandon, not Ned, and he showed his respect for them by bringing back the sword and, according to this theory, by "cleaning up the mess".

I agree that their is a possibility that Ashara Dayne is septa Lemore, therefore, fake suicide also fits, but there is one but: Varys! If she is Lemore, therefore, Varys could know about Jon's parentage, because he would know about fake suicide and so on. Also if she is Lemore, how did she meet Connington?

[Val the Wildling Princess]

N+A=V

:huh: whole new theory or what? Ned+Ashara but who's V? :dunno:

About the topic, I think Ned was in love with Ashara for real but I still think it was Brandon the father of her stillborn (or not) daughter.