Do we CARE who wins the Iron Throne anymore?

[Gogossos]

The crux of the matter is do we care who ends up on the throne? I think like sport, if one chooses a team to prefer to win the Superbowl (or the Champions League title if you prefer) then it feels better if that team wins and the journey is more intense but no less interesting. The debates about who will win or we want to win the Iron Throne are always more interesting if various readers have their own favourites. But as the series progresses it becomes easier to predict who will win the throne (but that does not necessarily mean everyone has to agree with Martin's choice, unlike LOTR) and the debates will increasingly turn to "who should win the throne?" instead. So ultimately the answer is, we will care but in a slightly different way. At this point, it becomes obvious that Dany and Jon and Aegon are the prime candidates with Cersei and Stannis in with an outside chance. So the question "Is Martin's choice the right one?" will outlast the series and this will show that we care and we will still care in the future as well.

[Lady of Long Lake]

I want Winterfell restored and the children back home. I want the Wall to be a thriving and integral part of the kingdom. I want the killing and raping to stop.

I don't care who sits the throne as long as those things happen.

[iamthedave]

Martin has been called the American version of J.R.R. Tolkein. That is most certainly not true! Not just because of the timeliness issues, but rather the fact that there is nearly complete moral ambiguity in these novels. At no time are readers clear about who is right or wrong, who is evil or good, and there is no one to cheer for that actually survives any given book. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings had no such issue. Tolkien made it very clear who were on the side of good and who weren't. He also made clear that individual choices had consequences and actions like courage, loyalty and truth were to be encouraged and greed, lust and dishonesty were to be discouraged. Martin conveys no clear moral compass. And this is a looming failure for this series: will we even care who wins the Iron Throne in the end?

Really the reviewer is missing the point to a staggering degree.

He's not called the American Tolkien because he wrote a really big book or because his book is comparable to Lord of the Rings, it's because, like Tolkien, Martin's writing has defined the fantasy genre of our time. A Song of Ice and Fire is on a scale most other authors can't even conceive of touching and it's got a level of consistent quality that raises it heads above those who come close. Even at its worst it's still better than most other works on the market.

Tolkien's book defined fantasy in his era, Martin redefines it for ours. Lord of the Rings is showing its age, stylistically and thematically. It's still fantastic, but it's not something you can hold modern fantasy up to and say 'it must be as good as this'. The genre is simply different now. Martin's work on the other hand, sets the bar by which all others are measured.

That's why he's called the American Tolkien.

What he's putting out as a 'looming failure' is the entire point of the story. It's one I chafe with myself, but only because the squabbling over the Iron Throne is infinitely more interesting than the Other plotline to me. The Others are Sauron, the Orcs, etc. The Iron Throne is all the modern elements rolled up in one yummy package.

[seanbean4lyfe]

I want Roose Bolton on le Iron Throne

so that shows how much i care about moral goodness in the end.

i don't think it really matters...I just don't want someone I don't like on the throne (Dany)

out of any real "contenders", I would say Stannis. I just want him to win because he has gotten this far and it would be upsetting if he lost in the final hour.

But TBH, I don't even really know who "should" be on the throne.

[ipsuel]

I am not too concerned either way, mainly cuz I feel there will not be an Iron Throne (as we know it) at the end. I think it will be more of a coalition of chosen leaders, spanning a wide range of groups.

If it stands, and if someone sits it -- I'll hope for Jaime. (Not gonna happen though lol)

[boojam]

there's around 200 countries in the world, almost 50 of which retain some sort of monarchy. granted, almost all are constitutional monarchies of one form or another, with only a handful of absolute monarchies, but they have hardly been gotten rid of.

Being a constitutional or an ornamental monarchy and not having a monarchy is a distinction without a difference.

[boojam]

Does anyone ever ask?

Will there actually be an Iron Throne at all by the end of the story?

[ipsuel]

Does anyone ever ask?

Will there actually be an Iron Throne at all by the end of the story?

Lol, two posts above yours.

I do not think there will be :)

[Brucolac]

Really the reviewer is missing the point to a staggering degree.

He's not called the American Tolkien because he wrote a really big book or because his book is comparable to Lord of the Rings, it's because, like Tolkien, Martin's writing has defined the fantasy genre of our time. A Song of Ice and Fire is on a scale most other authors can't even conceive of touching and it's got a level of consistent quality that raises it heads above those who come close. Even at its worst it's still better than most other works on the market.

Have you actually read the last book? Level and consistent quality my ass. He is a middle of the pack fantasy writer now. He is also abandoned whatever precedent you think he set by adding the sword and sorcery back into his work, meandering plot lines, gimicky cliffhangers, and overused language. I hope he will rededicate himself and put out work comparable to the books he put out in the first five years of this series, but the work he has provided in the last decade makes me think that it is unlikely.

[lordthade]

To the question of do we care... I don't. The throne is a deathtrap. The throne itself is a hideous use of imagery. We are reminded over and over how dangerous it physically is, and it LOOKS like a monstrosity as well. By the end of the story I don't expect much to remain of the realm to make it worthy. Frankly, Dorne and The Vale are infinitely smarter by NOT participating in the game of thrones, but we know they soon will be. *sigh*

To the issue of comparing GRRM to JRRT... it IS impact on genre being compared, not literal story lines or characters. If someone comes along with as effort comparable to Asimov's in the Foundation Trilogy I might sit down and enjoy the offering, but that won't necessarily make the author comparable to Isaac Asimov.

[mikehendo]

Whoever wins the Iron Throne should have it melted down.

I really hope that Dany doesn't win it, but other than that I don't really care and whoever "wins" it will not effect my opinion of the series. All that I want is a satisfying end for the characters that I care about (Jon, Bran, Arya, Tyrion, Jamie, and to a lesser extent Brienne). Heck, they don't all even have to live through the entire story, I just hope their deaths mean something.

[Ivy Snow]

I completely agree. In fact, if there are no Jon POV's in the next book, I doubt I will buy it, although if there are no Daenerys POV's I will reconsider.

There will be no Jon POV in WoW? omg where did you hear this news? ..... I'm devastated right now... :bawl:

[iamthedave]

Have you actually read the last book? Level and consistent quality my ass. He is a middle of the pack fantasy writer now. He is also abandoned whatever precedent you think he set by adding the sword and sorcery back into his work, meandering plot lines, gimicky cliffhangers, and overused language. I hope he will rededicate himself and put out work comparable to the books he put out in the first five years of this series, but the work he has provided in the last decade makes me think that it is unlikely.

Yep, twice, and I dislike large parts of it.

The Theon plotline, on the other hand, is some of the greatest writing Martin's ever produced and kicks the living crap out of 99% of what's on the market.

So, even at his worst - and Dance is pretty much at his worst so far - I stand by saying Song is head and shoulders above most of what's on the market.

He also hasn't abandoned that precedent; those elements were there in the very first book. He didn't create the genre whole cloth - everything Martin's done was done in part by someone else before him - but he created the epic that combined and exemplified those elements best, a truly modern fantasy epic for our time which defines what 'modern' fantasy is.

Now, he could easily ruin that legacy in the next two books. AFFC tested some people's patience, and Dance has strained it. WOW and DOS need to turn the ship right round or at the very least be not as bad as these two. As it stands though, the commentary is valid.

[The Mother of The Others]

There's nobody who really deserves the throne at this point so it's tough to get enthusiastic about any of the contenders. Daenerys would be a return to the family of horrors that Robert saved the kingdom from. The Targs really shouldn't be rewarded for Aerys' performance with another shot at a dynasty. Stannis is weird. Aegon is a freshman trying to play on the varsity team (he's not #1 in our hearts yet, and he's around #13 in line for the crown). Nobody but me likes the idea of Littlefinger on the throne, and even I don't really like it. Cercei holding on would probably disappoint people, and Jaime is attached to the whole debacle of the Lannister reign so he'll need to go too. Jon is gallant enough to earn a special title as king like "Jon the caring", but those nice (Baelor the Blessed?) type kings often don't end up doing well for the realm. If Jon was a store manager instead of a Wall manager, his performance review for this last year would probably get him fired by corporate, just like Stormborn isn't winning any ruler of the year awards. None of the Pirates should be given the key to the city, since they're the Sopranos of this story. You never hear Walder Frey's name bandied about as a possible winner of the game of thrones. Which makes him the dark horse! I was cheering for Oberyn for a while, but then that got less likely fast. Give it back to the forest children maybe.

[Verboten]

I want the Queen of Thorns on the Iron Throne. For no other reason than to hear her arguing with Dany about the Dothraki. Also she's a really smart politically savvy woman who's good at making herself seem senile or eccentric while she plots your downfall.

[Raksha the Demon]

I would never call GRRM the American Tolkien because he is a rather unique writer, just as Tolkien was at the time he wrote LOTR; but I think it diminishes one to compare him to the other, and vice versa.

For the record, and I don't want to argue it back and forth, just coming up front with my bias, I find LOTR to be a better work of literature than ASoIaF. I should not really be making the comparison at all; because ASoIaF is unfinished. That's just my opinion. But I love an old-fashioned story where the good guys go through h*ll and defeat the bad guys, especially if there's some fallout at the end to remind the reader that even victories have their price. I read fantasy/science fiction to escape from the real world; and like reading about kings and rulers who are actually (at least sometimes) as noble as they should be.

Tolkien's LOTR is not totally black and white, there are some shades of grey; but there is no denying that ASoIaF is more realist in certain areas, and many people, including most on this forum, love that. ASoIaF is sort of a fantasy/historical novel/horror hybrid series of novels, and LOTR was a fantasy saga synthesized from several traditions and influenced somewhat by Christianity and World War I.

As for whether we will care about who wins the Iron Throne at the end, yes, I do care. But a better question might be, is there still going to be a Seven Kingdoms-composite kingdom for the Iron Throne to rule over at the end? Or even, will there still be an Iron Throne, as opposed to lots of new swords melted down for scrap or something? Because the political situation is fluctuating so quickly, due to the destabilization of the Lannister-Baratheon alliance and rulers and the Targaryen threat from across the water, that it's almost impossible to predict who is going to be alive to sit on the thing at the end of the story. Or what is going to be sort-of alive to sit on the thing at the end of the story; the Others are getting antsy and the southern realms are clueless and in for a big, nasty surprise.

I just hope that Stannis isn't sitting on any throne at the end of the story; I wouldn't want to be ruled by someone who burns people alive out of religious/political expedience.

Dany is appealing and flashy, but just too immature to rule over an entity as complex as even one kingdom, let alone seven. She might be able to manage a Dothraki Khalasar that worships her, and she has potential as a warlord if she can learn to control her dragons.

Jon Snow might be able to make a pretty decent king in two or three years; at least he's been raised in Westeros, and has experience juggling different cultures and societies. But he might be better employed in the military.

I don't really see that many characters who I would pick as good kings and queens of the Seven Kingdoms as of now, or two or three years from now. Maybe it will be a combo of King-and-Hand-and-advisors; and the right team will do a passable job.

One could separate the South and the North, but that wouldn't work if the White Walkers and decades-long Winter are coming. The South could continue relatively undamaged and be disinclined to send help to the North besieged by cold and wights; whereas if they are one kingdom, a savvy ruler would send funds and soldiers to the North from the South, or elsewhere as needed.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The whole plot of LOTR wasn't about who became king; it was about destroying Sauron and the ring of power. Dany wanting to reclaim the Iron Throne is a plot point that will be used to get Dany over to Westros and the final battle with the Others. The political intrigue and civil wars are really meant to up the stakes for the final battle. The nobles in Westros have spent five books squabbling over an Iron Throne which will end up being a meaningless diversion from the real threat.

This is pretty much exactly how I interpreted it.

[boojam]

The whole plot of LOTR wasn't about who became king; it was about destroying Sauron and the ring of power. Dany wanting to reclaim the Iron Throne is a plot point that will be used to get Dany over to Westros and the final battle with the Others. The political intrigue and civil wars are really meant to up the stakes for the final battle. The nobles in Westros have spent five books squabbling over an Iron Throne which will end up being a meaningless diversion from the real threat.

I will also second that.

I don't know where George is going , but it does seem the Other and their minions will indeed invade the 'south'... meaning even as far as King's Landing.

That makes all the squabbling about the monarchy moot.

Tho in this case, unlike the defeat of Mordor I don't have any idea where the story goes, maybe the dissolution of the seven kingdoms as someone suggests.

[Aengus Millen]

I think that almost the point George makes it so that all his characters are not black or white but some people IE Cersei and Ramay are worse than others.

[Gogossos]

I will also second that.

I don't know where George is going , but it does seem the Other and their minions will indeed invade the 'south'... meaning even as far as King's Landing.

That makes all the squabbling about the monarchy moot.

Tho in this case, unlike the defeat of Mordor I don't have any idea where the story goes, maybe the dissolution of the seven kingdoms as someone suggests.

I think you've touched a few of the most pertinent issues. The first one is that that we all don't know where George is going; he could snap Westeros into separate kingdoms, he can make the most obvious like Jon or Dany get the throne but put a wicked twist in there, he could go for Stannis or a Jamie or Tommen who will surprise everyone. Because we have so many options, the discussions themselves get more interesting than the actual plots in the book.

The problem for GRRM is that the squabbling for the throne has been written so intricately and so engrossingly that the threat from the Others is taken as a side. Which will be fine if that was the case but since was a thing set up from the get go, my hunch is that the Others invasion is supposed to be a big deal. In that case, George's challenge is to put the Others threat in as exciting and engrossing way as he did with the game of thrones. Then readers will about that story as well.