Is Bran the Dark Overlord? (SPOILER)

[eyeheartsansa]

GRRM doesn't really like dark overlords, does he?

[ipsuel]

<snip>

Jon a.k.a the Great Other, Bran the Boring (who is maybe in need of some advanced ethics education on warging, but is generally a sweet and kind kid), and the Children of the Forest will fight the Others and their wights first, and then, after that, the Nights King and his corpse bride. Last of all, the dragons. Yes, please?

I thought Bran just a sweet kid, too -- but the one thing that leads me to question that is this: He knows its wrong to warg Hodor. Not because of warg-rules or anything, just because he can feel it, instinctively. Hence the reason he doesn't tell anyone.

I mean hell, Hodor didn't like it at first, and now is to the point of whimpering -- yet Bran *still chooses to do it.* He doesn't make the "right, moral" choice of stopping, or talking to someone about it -- he continues to do it... knowing its wrong, and knowing that he is invading someone who A) is simple-minded and B) has been damn good to Bran.

That's not only sad, but it's a little scary, when related to the idea of what he (Bran) is capable of as he grows older.

[Ser Lepus]

I thought Bran just a sweet kid, too -- but the one thing that leads me to question that is this: He knows its wrong to warg Hodor. Not because of warg-rules or anything, just because he can feel it, instinctively. Hence the reason he doesn't tell anyone.

I mean hell, Hodor didn't like it at first, and now is to the point of whimpering -- yet Bran *still chooses to do it.* He doesn't make the "right, moral" choice of stopping, or talking to someone about it -- he continues to do it... knowing its wrong, and knowing that he is invading someone who A) is simple-minded and B) has been damn good to Bran.

That's not only sad, but it's a little scary, when related to the idea of what he (Bran) is capable of as he grows older.

Yes, that´s one of the things that lead to me think that GRRM is going to make Bran to become at least a grey character, instead of a wholesome good boy as he has been until now.

[ValyrianQueen]

I've read all the theories analysed here and I must thank all you people for these insightful points!:-D

However, I'm pretty sure that the CotF, though they may be related witht the Others, are not their allies. It's mentioned somewhere that they gave the Night's Watch 100 or 1000(don't remember, sorry) obsisdian blades a year to fight the White Walkers, which means that they kept being the Others' enemies for ages. They're not bad and that's certain.

And some seem to accuse Bloodraven of corrupting Bran. In my opinion, Bran was a little strange from the time he became crippled. He always has these thoughts of never being a knight which show us how he can't accept his fate and maybe he's pushing back Jamie in his mind because he doesn't want to be consumed by his rage towards him. And he used Hodor as a skin way before he met Bloodraven and it's really interesting that the book starts with a warg saying that using humans like that is an abomination.

I sometimes like Bran a lot but I found myself considering his chapters disturbing generally even before I read this theory, that he may be corrupted somehow in the future. And we've seen many times the apprentice turning evil despite his mentor's desires.

Of course, that's not certain at all and he may very well be just good. I don't see why we should actually believe all these things about R'hllor and the Great Other, it may be just peoples' beliefs and not facts that these entities exist and Melisandre's power may come from somehwere else and after all, other prophecies (the stallion who mounts the world) have proved false.

(Also, i think I missed how Bran cannibalized Jojen, have to read this chapter again....Why would they do that anyway?)

[ValyrianQueen]

I've read all the theories analysed here and I must thank all you people for these insightful points!:-D

However, I'm pretty sure that the CotF, though they may be related witht the Others, are not their allies. It's mentioned somewhere that they gave the Night's Watch 100 or 1000(don't remember, sorry) obsisdian blades a year to fight the White Walkers, which means that they kept being the Others' enemies for ages. They're not bad and that's certain.

And some seem to accuse Bloodraven of corrupting Bran. In my opinion, Bran was a little strange from the time he became crippled. He always has these thoughts of never being a knight which show us how he can't accept his fate and maybe he's pushing back Jamie in his mind because he doesn't want to be consumed by his rage towards him. And he used Hodor as a skin way before he met Bloodraven and it's really interesting that the book starts with a warg saying that using humans like that is an abomination.

I sometimes like Bran a lot but I found myself considering his chapters disturbing generally even before I read this theory, that he may be corrupted somehow in the future. And we've seen many times the apprentice turning evil despite his mentor's desires.

Of course, that's not certain at all and he may very well be just good. I don't see why we should actually believe all these things about R'hllor and the Great Other, it may be just peoples' beliefs and not facts that these entities exist and Melisandre's power may come from somehwere else and after all, other prophecies (the stallion who mounts the world) have proved false.

(Also, i think I missed how Bran cannibalized Jojen, have to read this chapter again....Why would they do that anyway?)

[howsockgothappy]

Hmm my theory was always that Azor Ahai is actually the Great Other, and Rh'llor's priests are desperately confused. Not in the sense that Azor Ahai=evil, I just kind of expect Azor Ahai to be Jon, and I expect Jon to try really hard to do what's right and just kind of... not. If he does go to Hardhome and come back with all those people, he'll basically be leading an army of others to Westeros, even though he thinks he's saving people.

And I never caught that part about Melisandre's 'face' that could be the bad guy's being Jon's... clever.

EIther way, I would like to see Jon or Bran be the earthly form of the "great Other" but the Great Other not be quite as evil as we think. Maybe Great Other=old gods or some connection?

[Dont Call me Bastard]

I hpe Bran doesn't turn around and become an evil force in the book and i don't think he will, though i do agree that its a bit disconcerting how he has been continually warging into Hodor even knowing its wrong, he misses being able to walk etc and is a bit frustrated and angered by his situation I believe but still at the same time I feel has a good heart. I do wonder what his future holds who knows what he will see in the trees and what he may be able to do about it. Crazy thought and am new here and not sure if other people have put this forward but the idea of Bran Warging into a dragon when they head over to Westeros. I do think that the Others represent the big evil in the stories but more than just them but Winter as a whole. Fear is for the Winter, the long night, it has been referenced since early in the stories as the time for fear and is just whats around the corner in TWoW so here it is. Also there is still plenty of time for the penultimate battle as I have read threads in other posts that he may almost need to add an eighth book to conclude the series as he has apparently said that he has a lot left to resolve so maybe 3 more books or just 2 long ones. Plus as the story starts to converege it will move a lot faster. Really looking forward to see whats going to happen.

[Glyn Tarvoke]

Persons wielding lots of power by necessity must do things which injure people. I mean, a recent example in the US was when the Mississippi river flooded and someone (the Army Corp of Engineers) had to decide who got flooded. (They protected the oil refineries I believe). GRMM drives home this point quite often. The discussions about Baelor the Blessed being a good example. Bran could be selfless and caring as they come. But if he gains influence like the greenseer currently has Bran will do harm to people from time to time.

I agree with the comments that Bran is being selfish warging Hodor. But how can you blame a crippled 9 year old from wanting to walk? I can't blame him too much. And the first time Bran does it is out of emergency. When he does it, Bran always feels a little guilty. A true sociopath wouldn't care.

GRMM mentioned in some interviews that he dislikes training stories. It seems like Bran showed up subtly in AWDW, especially in the later Theon chapters. "Theon .......Bran" I could only read as Theon I'm Bran. And of course Theon thinks he sees Bran in the hearttree. If anything, Bran helps Theon a bit.

My guess also is that the old gods can send cold and influence people's body functions a bit. Thus, Hosteen Frey mocks the cold then loses an ear to frostbite. Poor (cowardly?) Jeyne gets a frostbite nose. If that guess is right, Bran or his influence may show up more often.

[Kanyin Snow]

I was thinking, the other day, about how Mel and moroqqo (sorry for the sp- I "read" through audiobooks) that they always talk about the one who must not be named. The unnamed bad guy always always has a name even if they have been so evil in history that their name was shunned so people would forget them. But tere is still a name. I was then thinking, what names have transcended time and the first one that pops into my head is Azor Ahai. Wouldn't it be ironic if Azor Ahai was the one who should not be named? The red priests wouldn't know, they were probabaly never told the name of the one who should not be named.

Probably the Great Other is the same as the one who should not be named, the antagonist of Rhllor. If my crackpot theory is correct I would have to guess Jon being Azor Ahai and then in turn be the great other, ie the one who should not be named, Mel's greatest enemy.

[Kanyin Snow]

There is one other thing to add to the conversation, not to my theory.

I forgot which book but as Bran et al were passing under the wall, some salt water dropped on his head. It was mentioned that Hodor BORE Bran on his back, therefore he was "born" amidst smoke and salt. It's another crackpot, I know, but the legend of Azor Ahai would have initially been passed on by word of mouth.

[Im no Ser]

I thought Bran just a sweet kid, too -- but the one thing that leads me to question that is this: He knows its wrong to warg Hodor. Not because of warg-rules or anything, just because he can feel it, instinctively. Hence the reason he doesn't tell anyone.

I mean hell, Hodor didn't like it at first, and now is to the point of whimpering -- yet Bran *still chooses to do it.* He doesn't make the "right, moral" choice of stopping, or talking to someone about it -- he continues to do it... knowing its wrong, and knowing that he is invading someone who A) is simple-minded and B) has been damn good to Bran.

That's not only sad, but it's a little scary, when related to the idea of what he (Bran) is capable of as he grows older.

"Hodor is a man, not a mule to be beaten"

-Maester Luwin to Bran

GoT p 731 (2011 Bantam Mass Market edition)

And that was in response to Bran just grumbling the he wished he could smack Hodor on the head to get him to go into the crypts. Bran KNOWS warging Hodor (in non-life threatening situations) is wrong, but he does it anyway.

[Mother of Mountains]

I don't know about Bran being some evil overlord, but I have been wondering whether he might in some way be Bran the Builder.

Just minor things, but there are several occasions when the text mentions that Old Nan seems confused about which Bran is which, Bran, Brandon, The Builder. Foreshadowing something maybe?

The is also mention of time being circular in AFfC. Perhaps we are actually reading the story of the Age of Heroes? As Sam points out there is no real history of this time, we don't really know what happened.

Also we know that you can use greenseeing to view the past, has it been explicitly stated that you can't use this to skinchange into the past? Therefore controlling events which have already happened.

[Pomp & Happenstance]

I don't know about Bran being some evil overlord, but I have been wondering whether he might in some way be Bran the Builder.

Just minor things, but there are several occasions when the text mentions that Old Nan seems confused about which Bran is which, Bran, Brandon, The Builder. Foreshadowing something maybe?

The is also mention of time being circular in AFfC. Perhaps we are actually reading the story of the Age of Heroes? As Sam points out there is no real history of this time, we don't really know what happened.

Also we know that you can use greenseeing to view the past, has it been explicitly stated that you can't use this to skinchange into the past? Therefore controlling events which have already happened.

This has been something I have sort of hoped in a way. I caught that the first time I read aGoT (since I like to play Devils Advocate and break suspension of disbelief by looking outside the box trying to figure out the creator GRRM) But forgot about it once I became enamored by the series. It would be cool if history/time was cyclical or on a string, and the main characters with the "Biggest Auras" are actually referenced in the past somehow....(or at least just Bran, haha)

[Mother of Mountains]

It would be cool if history/time was cyclical or on a string

Just had another thought, Sam specifically says that some of old texts mention knights but that's impossible because there were none. Unless time really is circular...

[Armand Gargalen]

So much this.

If there is one point GRRM has driven home it's that for all the people in the middle of a great battle (which more often than not will have no impact on their lives) war is truly hell. It's explicit in Doran Martell's speech about the secret of the water gardens (the radical notion that a prince is responsible for the safety of all the children in his realm, and that war will kill most of them), but GRRM beats it like a drum: the disease outside Mereen, the atrocities committed by all sides of the Westerosi civil war, the wildings fleeing as they freeze and stave...

In the war of the dawn we're the smallfolk. To the two sides in that war we're tiny insignificant things to be used as pawns, our lives only valuable insofar as we can be killed and used for bloodmagic. The followers of R'hollor are enthusiastic child burners, not the fellowship of the ring. The others are a wave of cold undeath. A plague on both their houses.

That's today's theory anyway.

That has been my theory for some time and I am going to stick with it for now. From that point of view, it is clear to me that Bran is going to play a mayor role in that war, although I am not completely sure which side he will be in...

Martin has also driven home many times that power corrupts, or at least "a sword without a hilt"; we have seen this from AGOT, and the theme gets darker and grimmer as the series advances. Therefore, if Bran is to play a mayor role, he has to become a darker character, and many of the actions we see him performing during ADWD clearly show us this. He wargs into Hodor and I am convinced that he has eaten human flesh (not sure if Jojen, but cannibalism is a main theme in the book, so that´s a big clue for me).

I am surprised, btw, that so far in the thread, nobody has yet remarked Bran´s dialogue with Coldhands at the end of Bran I:

" A monster", Bran said.

The ranger looked at Bran as if the rest of them did not exist. "Your monster, Brandon Stark".

Curiously enough, another character who thinks of herself as a monster is Dany...

[scurvy]

When Bran is in his coma and The Three Eyed Crow enters his dreams and provides him with a glimpse of what greensight is, toward the end of his dream as he is falling, right before he learns to fly the dialog is as follows:

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him ... North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned his cheeks.

Now you know, the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder, now you know why you must live.

"Why?" Bran said, not understanding, falling, falling.

Because winter is coming.

Bran looked at the crow on his shoulder, and the crow looked back. It had three eyes, and the third eye was full of a terrible knowledge. Bran looked down. There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid.

He is given the choice of fly or die. Then he flies.

If the dreamers are impaled and dead in the frozen heart of winter, then the Others are at war with the Old Gods and the CotF, not in league with them.

The issue regarding the heat of his tears burning him would more likely imply he is AA reborn, not the Great Other. Tears = salt. Blah, blah, blah. Bran always wanted to be a Knight. Perhaps he will be the greatest of knights. The knight who defeats the Others.

[Pomp & Happenstance]

I thought the tears burning him having to do with him waking up from his coma. Having not opened his eyes or been conscious for a while the sudden sensation of tears could've felt awkward on his cheeks.

But I like magical/prophetic explanations better :cool4:

[HyacinthGirl]

I like Bran and all, he's a nice kid. But he has got to get the hell out of that bloody cave, and I mean soon. He cannot plug in to that weirwood chair again...it's wrong, it's worse than death, all those roots growing through you. I have a really really bad feeling about the COTF, especially after Jojen's behaviour and Meera & J disappearing....no no no BAD

[Ser Lepus]

Yeah, that´s what I said...you can stay much time living like that and remain normal or even sane...and the same goes for Bloodraven; I can´t even start to imagine what´s going on in his head...

[baffledchump]

I forgot which book but as Bran et al were passing under the wall, some salt water dropped on his head. It was mentioned that Hodor BORE Bran on his back, therefore he was "born" amidst smoke and salt. It's another crackpot, I know, but the legend of Azor Ahai would have initially been passed on by word of mouth.

This is a really nice spot. I don't actually think Bran is AA, but nevertheless it could well be another example of GRRM inserting these pointers all over the place to frustrate us diligent prophecy interpreters!