White Walkers and Others

[moongoose]

Old Nan might have been a wildling and therefor she is using WW to describe the Others and change it to Others since it's the more common name for the people south of the wall. That is one posibillity. The other one is that there is a different, but she doesn't feel like explaining it to Bran in the middle of a story like Lykos said.

Even if we say that the two names are synonyms I still find it intersting to ask if there are different sort of Others or maybe different parties (like Starks, Lannisters...) of Others.

AND are the Others that we face NOW the same Others that were there thousand years ago? Maybe they changed themself over time. (ok ok..I know that evolution first needs more time and second hasn't much importance in fantasy literature, but still)

Some people refere to Rheagar as the last Dragon. Why so? Maybe this has been discussed somewhere else I don't know since I'm new but...

Targ and Dragon seems not to be the same. "Your brother Rheagar was the last dragon." why would he say that to Dany if Targ and Dragon would be the same?

Maybe at some point before the doom of valarya the dragons and the humans mixed (don't ask me how, the dragons might had a different sort of body then and after the many years the dragons became more dragonlike and the Targs more humanlike but keept some dragon points?)

What if it's the same with the Others.. what if at some point of time.. some of the Others (or a sort of WW that might be different from an Other) mixed with humans ...

I'm thinking of Starks here.. what if the Starks have Otherblood in them like the Targs have Dragonblood in them but it only shows in some individuals?

[Where The Weirwood Weeps]

Old Nan might have been a wildling and therefor she is using WW to describe the Others and change it to Others since it's the more common name for the people south of the wall. That is one posibillity. The other one is that there is a different, but she doesn't feel like explaining it to Bran in the middle of a story like Lykos said.

Even if we say that the two names are synonyms I still find it intersting to ask if there are different sort of Others or maybe different parties (like Starks, Lannisters...) of Others.

AND are the Others that we face NOW the same Others that were there thousand years ago? Maybe they changed themself over time. (ok ok..I know that evolution first needs more time and second hasn't much importance in fantasy literature, but still)

Some people refere to Rheagar as the last Dragon. Why so? Maybe this has been discussed somewhere else I don't know since I'm new but...

Targ and Dragon seems not to be the same. "Your brother Rheagar was the last dragon." why would he say that to Dany if Targ and Dragon would be the same?

Maybe at some point before the doom of valarya the dragons and the humans mixed (don't ask me how, the dragons might had a different sort of body then and after the many years the dragons became more dragonlike and the Targs more humanlike but keept some dragon points?)

What if it's the same with the Others.. what if at some point of time.. some of the Others (or a sort of WW that might be different from an Other) mixed with humans ...

I'm thinking of Starks here.. what if the Starks have Otherblood in them like the Targs have Dragonblood in them but it only shows in some individuals?

I'm fairly sure Old Nan was a Flint.

And the closest evidence to that I can think of is the Night King, but that marriage didn't produce children as we know. It is an interesting idea though. Especially since most of Westeros mistakes Wargs for Shape-shifters.

Edited for spelling

[Dragonfish]

Old Nan was a Flint.

Based on what?

[Lykos]

I think Where The Weirwood Weeps just made a little mistake. Old Nan tells Bran that his fondness for climbing comes from his great grandmother, who was a Flint of the Mountains.

[Where The Weirwood Weeps]

I think Where The Weirwood Weeps just made a little mistake. Old Nan tells Bran that his fondness for climbing comes from his great grandmother, who was a Flint of the Mountains.

OH! Yeah, I confused the two together. :blush: Sorry.

I still highly doubt she's a Wildling if she's raised the children on stories, saying that Wildings drank blood, and bred with the Others... *Goes back to read Moongoose's last post* :o Oh.

Wait... how would that even work... I know that this is a fantasy series and science can only be applied so far... but genetics... Is there an emoticon for 'brain exploding'? :bawl:

[moongoose]

OH! Yeah, I confused the two together. :blush: Sorry.

I still highly doubt she's a Wildling if she's raised the children on stories, saying that Wildings drank blood, and bred with the Others... *Goes back to read Moongoose's last post* :o Oh.

Wait... how would that even work... I know that this is a fantasy series and science can only be applied so far... but genetics... Is there an emoticon for 'brain exploding'? :bawl:

It might work if the WW was once a human. So far we have no clue that a human can turn in to a WW, because all of them that we saw were wights.

But we haven't seen Cravters Boys yet. While it's never stated at which age they were giving as an offering, I still got the feeling that they were still very young, maybe still babies. Yet why does one of Crasters wife tell Samwell, that he has to take Gilli and the baby because the brothers will come for it? A baby wight doesn't seem so scary to me. But if they grew up as something in between human and WW, then it wouldn't be impossible for them to bred together and who knows what might come out of this.

[Arya Stark Rules]

I think white walkers are different from others.

[Nymeria_Stark]

In the books the are the Others and Wights... but in the show they're all called white walkers.

[corbon]

It might work if the WW was once a human. So far we have no clue that a human can turn in to a WW, because all of them that we saw were wights.

But we haven't seen Cravters Boys yet. While it's never stated at which age they were giving as an offering, I still got the feeling that they were still very young, maybe still babies. Yet why does one of Crasters wife tell Samwell, that he has to take Gilli and the baby because the brothers will come for it? A baby wight doesn't seem so scary to me. But if they grew up as something in between human and WW, then it wouldn't be impossible for them to bred together and who knows what might come out of this.

Why?

Because psychologically she has to believe that there is something more for the sons, her babies, than just death in the snow, murdered to buy her safety.

There is no believable scenario in which she actually has real knowledge of the babies becoming Others. There is no indication the others speak any human tongue, or would be willing or interested in conversing with any warm blooded creature, and no way in hell they let her watch any magical ceremony or similar.

All she knows is that Craster takes the babies out into the woods and comes back without them, claiming they are sacrificed to the cold gods. Coincidentally, some Others have been sighted at around the same time but not yet attacked Craster's keep (virtually all the Other action is much further north). Its good for Craster to believe or claim there is a pact and the sacrafices buy their safety (gets rid of the unwanted sons and keeps the wives compliant) and good for the wives to believe the sons they give up become divine or semi-divine creatures rather than are murdered.

[Eiko Dragonhorn]

From the passage where Old Nan is telling the story to Bran it seemed like they're different.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

From the passage where Old Nan is telling the story to Bran it seemed like they're different.

I do agree, Old Nan's story seems like she has mistaken whitewalkers for wights.

[corbon]

I do agree, Old Nan's story seems like she has mistaken whitewalkers for wights.

How?

Oh my sweet summer child … What do you know of fear? Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north, when the sun hides it face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods.

No indication here that white walkers are wights. Just another word for Others, as Bran clarifies later.

The Others … Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks.

In that darkness, the Others came for the first time … They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding pale dead horses, and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes, found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through the frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children.

Seems to be a clear demarcation here between the Others and wights. he only slightly confusing thing is she calls Others 'dead things', but they are clearly different from their 'hosts of the slain' and 'dead servants'. I thinj she just believes that the melt-when-pierced-by-dragonglass Others are not 'living' as we would consider the term.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Old Nan might have been a wildling and therefor she is using WW to describe the Others and change it to Others since it's the more common name for the people south of the wall. That is one posibillity. The other one is that there is a different, but she doesn't feel like explaining it to Bran in the middle of a story like Lykos said.

<snip

Not likely. She speaks very very ill of Wildlings. She says their women lay with the Others in the Long Night, having horrible half-human children.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

How?

Oh my sweet summer child … What do you know of fear? Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north, when the sun hides it face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods.

No indication here that white walkers are wights. Just another word for Others, as Bran clarifies later.

The Others … Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks.

In that darkness, the Others came for the first time … They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding pale dead horses, and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes, found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through the frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children.

Seems to be a clear demarcation here between the Others and wights. he only slightly confusing thing is she calls Others 'dead things', but they are clearly different from their 'hosts of the slain' and 'dead servants'. I thinj she just believes that the melt-when-pierced-by-dragonglass Others are not 'living' as we would consider the term.

GRRM has stated that they are "alive" and not dead, so either she is describing wights or she is describing white walkers but her description is wrong

[wolfmaid7]

Thank you ! QA and all the others that see the problem with Nan's tale.She is confusing Wights and WWs not to mention when she is telling that story the connotation in her tone says wws and Others are different.

I don't have time to post this right now., but I believe the term Others originally described those who became Wights.

And because of some bad observations and conclusion made long ago the stories blended tgem together.

The wws do not raise the dead they are being raised and controlled by someone else *cough* Greenseer. Craster and his wives have been practicing ritual exposure god knows how long.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

How exactly can you examine a character's "tone?"

She thinks they're dead, and the terms White Walkers and Others are interchangeable to her, and she doesn't know the word "wight." No one's seen one in several thousand years. There are bound to be some mix-ups.

You cannot expect the characters to know what the author has said, or what someone else has learned elsewhere in the story.

[wolfmaid7]

How exactly can you examine a character's "tone?"

She thinks they're dead, and the terms White Walkers and Others are interchangeable to her, and she doesn't know the word "wight." No one's seen one in several thousand years. There are bound to be some mix-ups.

You cannot expect the characters to know what the author has said, or what someone else has learned elsewhere in the story.

Simple because there is a "tone" to writing,be it something the character conveys because the author has put a clue there or because the character for whatever reason has altered something.The mixs up are the point it calls into question what Nan knows and the validity of it.

For instance let's look at Nan's story again.

“Oh, my sweet summer child,” Old Nan said quietly, “what do you know of fear? Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north. Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods.”

“You mean the Others,” Bran said querulously.

“The Others,” Old Nan agreed. “Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks.” Her voice and her needles fell silent, and she glanced up at Bran with pale, filmy eyes and asked, “So, child. This is the sort of story you like?”

“Well,” Bran said reluctantly, “yes, only...

Old Nan nodded. “In that darkness, the Others came for the first time,” she said as her needles went click click click. “They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes found no pity in them."

Now look at the tone in which she describes the White walkers and see how the tone changes after Bran interupts her to be snarky about what she says. Yes she agrees,but she does so because there is no harm in agreeing with what Bran says.But the tone of what she is talking about betrays.

1. When she speaks of the wws what she conveys is just some enigmatic things walking in the woods during the Winters.Her tone evokes commanlity and them walking through the woods is a normal thing.There is no sense of urgency nor does it evoke danger.Creepy things walking through the woods and no one not really sure what they are about.

2.After the interuption by Bran who brings up "Others".Nan was old when Ned was young and she probably forgot she was talking about WWs a minute ago before Bran's interuption.But here what she starts saying about the "Others". How could she say and sound as if the Others came for the first time when in the first bolded statement them roaming through the woods during the winter was a normal thing.

Conclusion: She is speaking of two different things. I have no doubt Nan is mixing things up,i have no doubt due to her advanced age she her short term memory maybe impaired a bit.So she started off talking about wws which was one thing and Bran cut her off and brought up Others and switched to them which was something else. Just like as Bran said she would mix up which Brandon's she was talking too when she talked to him. But when you break her story down it is clear the "Others" were originally the Wights they are what appeared the first time ( when in comes to human memories)

[Blazfemur]

Making this a point to leave this in every thread with white walkers, others, and weights as the focus. Don't mind me, I'll just post this here and....

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/116209-spoilers-all-two-nights-watchtheir-true-history;-the-others-purpose;-tnk;-etc/

..There we go. I'm done. Resume

[Winterfell Resident]

The White Walkers and Others are the same.

It's like when you use the term pupils and students. They both refer to the same type of people.

The wights which sounds like Whites are the mindless zombies that are created when the "White Walkers" or "The Others" kill a human.

[wolfmaid7]

The White Walkers and Others are the same.

It's like when you use the term pupils and students. They both refer to the same type of people.

The wights which sounds like Whites are the mindless zombies that are created when the "White Walkers" or "The Others" kill a human.

I would like you to read the link in my Sig called the cold the Wights and the Wight walker.

First food for thought you said wights are formed when wws kill humans. How did Thistle and Tourmonds son die.The wws do NOT raise the dead.Anyone that dies North and is exposed to the "Cold wind that rises"will wake.

They aren't the same and GRRM is brilliant.