Devouring their children: Portrayal of mothers in ASOIAF

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Yes but does this trope reflect male fears and hatred of women more than it represents real women?

Every stereotype or archetype has its source, and there certainly are real life examples of the "obsessive/all-consuming matriarch," especially in terms of women who over-identify with the children and force them to do things that the mothers wish they could have done. Stage mothers are a perfect example, like those women who put their toddler and kindergarten-age daughters into beauty contests. In some of the documentaries I've seen about that phenomenon the mothers are not that attractive, and I'm sure they're living vicariously through their daughters even while they're torturing the kids into looking and acting in a certain way.

I've always though that Cersei over-identified with Joffrey, he was her with a penis, the pure Lannister she produced who was going to be king. She didn't try to discipline or restrain him because she didn't want to be disciplined or restrained.

[Raksha the Demon]

@ Raksha

Yeah, I don't think she had to murder her children either. However, I don't think there was any other way for her to punish Jason. Her leaving, children intact, would not exactly have been punishment for Jason who doesn't seem like he gave two shits anyway. I like to think that she wanted to make him feel something like the loss and betrayal she was feeling. Not that that justifies murder, but it does make her fascinating, and ties in with the theme of women using what's available to them. Jason is a noble, he has political support, enfranchisement within Greek society, the weight of law and culture behind him. What does Medea have? Nothing but her children. (In the play she isn't exactly super magical aside from her Deus ex machina)

I understand that Medea was marginalized, treated very unfairly, and that Jason was a first-class cad - but is any of that a good reason to murder one's children? (or any children, actually?) What does Medea have? Children that she could bring up to be strong and potentially powerful, better people than their father. Medea used her children to punish Jason because her hate for Jason was stronger than her love for her children. That does not make her a feminist icon, or a poster child for patriarchal mistreatment of women, at least not in my opinion, it makes her a study in the interplay of passion and power and vengeance - which is also quite interesting.

The Greek play that breaks my heart because of the patriarchal mistreatment of women is The Trojan Women. The wife and daughter and daughters-in-law of the slain Priam, once king of Troy, are captives of the Greeks, and their fates are harrowing, except for Helen, who dissuades her original husband Menelaus from killing her and goes off with him. Andromache's young son, the only child of Hector, is taken from her and thrown off the walls by the Greeks, who fear to let Hector's son survive; and she is given to the son of the man who killed Hector. I would not have blamed Andromache if she had killed her son with her own hands; since it might have been less frightening to the little boy than being dragged away by rough strangers to be thrown off the walls, but I certainly don't blame her for not killing her son (especially since she didn't have any daggers or poisons, it would be a thing beyond horror to strangle one's own child).

I wonder if Medea's appeal as a character is the violence of her actions; she does not accept misfortune with dignity, she sacrifices her children in vengeance. But I cannot condone Medea's killing her children, their lives were never in danger, she killed them out of a tremendous rage against Jason. I would have had more respect for Medea if she had tried to kill Jason, via poison, or a bow and arrow or even seducing some man into attacking him.

[Raksha the Demon]

Every stereotype or archetype has its source, and there certainly are real life examples of the "obsessive/all-consuming matriarch," especially in terms of women who over-identify with the children and force them to do things that the mothers wish they could have done. Stage mothers are a perfect example, like those women who put their toddler and kindergarten-age daughters into beauty contests. In some of the documentaries I've seen about that phenomenon the mothers are not that attractive, and I'm sure they're living vicariously through their daughters even while they're torturing the kids into looking and acting in a certain way.

I've always though that Cersei over-identified with Joffrey, he was her with a penis, the pure Lannister she produced who was going to be king. She didn't try to discipline or restrain him because she didn't want to be disciplined or restrained.

I definitely think that Cersei identified with Joffrey. To some extent, he was her living revenge against the system that had frustrated her and bound her to an abusive husband - a healthy, handsome, strong-willed boy who was the product of the love she had chosen and who would one day rule the Seven Kingdoms. Joffrey speaks of Cersei telling him not to slap around ladies/his betrothed, but I doubt she ever gave more than suggestions or at least that she didn't discipline or restrain him the way she later does Tommen. She does not even seem bothered about what he did to the cat - which could also be a comment on Cersei's lack of empathy for animals or people who are not useful to her. Robert certainly did not have the right disciplinary approach to Joffrey's treatment of the cat; but that does not excuse Joffrey's actions or the mind behind them.

I think that parents often, if not always, project much of their own unfinished business onto their children - this is not necessarily a bad thing, depending on what the unfinished business is, and how aware the parent is of their own desire to see Junior be a whiz at hockey just like his old man or see Suzie become a singer (or a soccer star), whatever.

I don't see anything wrong with encouraging toddlers to perform; but the intensity and frequency of the little girls' beauty pageants seem too much for young children; and an activity far more important to their moms. It seems like it's taking an enjoyable thing - little girls playing dress-up, singing/dancing, and turning it into a feverish full-time obsession.

[Chalais]

And the way I see it all love in this series is portrayed as damaging or at least potentially so. Robert loved Lyanna and it destroyed him from the inside out. Cersei loves Jaime and Jaime loves Cersei, just look at what they are now. Ned loved his children to the point where he allows his daughter to have swordfighting lessons, basically the equivalent of allowing her to walk around naked, and then confesses to treason to save them. Tywin loved Joanna so when Tyrions birth killed her he died a little himself. Aerys and Arianne, Lysa and Petyr, Dany and Drogo, there are countless examples of love, romantic or not, consuming both the holder of the torch and the one who is loved. It's like a wildfire, beautiful to see but utterly devastating to that it touches*. Even Loras, the paragon of fairy tale love, allows it to destroy his judgement.

*_{I totally stole this metaphor you guys}

Like Cersei said to Sansa, Love is poison, a sweet poison but it will kill you all the same.

[LadyOlennaTyrell]

We have to admit that motherhood is problematic in aSoIaF, because we can't really name a good, caring, proeminently figured mother in the series (some could say Catelyn, TV Catelyn I agree, books Catelyn, it's less obvious ; Ellaria Sand maybe) : the mothers who aren't "devouring mothers" (by the way, I'd had Sybelle Westerling and maybe her own mother Maggy to that list) are either transparent, either absentee (including dead) or without their child.

Let's make a quick list :

1) Mothers lacking of personnality : Alerie Tyrell, Selyse Baratheon, Melessa Tarly, Alannys Greyjoy, Marya Seaworth (Westeros' Penelope), Sybelle Glover, Tanda Stokeworth, to name a few.

2) "Absentee" mothers : Mellario Martell, Elia Targaryen, Rhaella Targaryen, Cassana Baratheon, Joanna Lannister, Minisa Tully... A lot of main characters haven't even a named mother : Ned Stark, Jon (if she's not among the aforementioned), Littlefinger, Jorah Mormont, Brienne...

3) Mothers without their child(ren) : Taena Merryweather, septa Lemore.

4) Women more depicted as grandmothers than as mothers : Queen of Thorns, Anya Waynwood, Old Nan.

Therefore, a lot of characters haven't a mother, never mention their mothers, some never knew them, while fathers, and father-children relationships, are omnipresent. I think we definitely have something relevent here regarding characterization.

[Skeksi]

^ In fairness, we don't know how good many of those "absentee" mothers there actually were, since several of them are dead. Similarly, those lacking a personality, we couldn't say.

I would still argue that Cat is an example of a good mother in the series. She clearly loves all her children, in book and TV versions, and does her best to keep them safe (she is devastated when Bran falls, she tries to trade Jaime to save her daughters, she leaves Bran and Rickon somewhere she believes they will be safe, surrounded by people that will care for them and defend them, and she follows Robb, who she, reasonably, believes will likely need her help the most), we don't see examples of her treating her children badly (she's not exactly kind to Jon, but that's not really the question here), and she's turned out some fairly well rounded kids, IMO. I don't see where the "Catelyn is a terrible mother" argument comes in. I mean, she couldn't really go to King's Landing, and it wasn't that practical for her to be riding back and forth between Winterfell and Riverrun when she believed her children were safe at Winterfell.

There are plenty of bad/ absent fathers in the series- Tywin Lannister jumps to mind. I don't recall ever seeing him being portrayed as a great father, all 3 of his kids have massive issues, and at least 2 of them have massive issues with him, specifically. Cersei seems to be the only one who thinks of him with any kind of fondness, and given that she was the one he married to a man she came to hate, and then tried to marry her off to stop her making a mess of the regency, it says a lot for his relationships with his kids as a whole. Robert Baratheon pretty much ignored his kids, even he admits that, and look how "his" eldest turned out. Stannis's relationship with Shireen is hardly mentioned at all. Hoster is dying pretty much from his introduction, and even he feels guilty over how he treated his daughter- who also ended up with massive issues. Davos seems to generally be a good father, but when was the last time he saw his youngest two children?

Also, Littlefinger's mother was called Alayne :P (Remember, when choosing Sansa's new name, he says "After my mother, that might serve...")- though admittedly, we don't know what house she was from initially.

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

Every stereotype or archetype has its source, and there certainly are real life examples of the "obsessive/all-consuming matriarch," especially in terms of women who over-identify with the children and force them to do things that the mothers wish they could have done.

I've always though that Cersei over-identified with Joffrey, he was her with a penis, the pure Lannister she produced who was going to be king.

I definitely think that Cersei identified with Joffrey. To some extent, he was her living revenge against the system that had frustrated her and bound her to an abusive husband - a healthy, handsome, strong-willed boy who was the product of the love she had chosen and who would one day rule the Seven Kingdoms. Joffrey speaks of Cersei telling him not to slap around ladies/his betrothed, but I doubt she ever gave more than suggestions or at least that she didn't discipline or restrain him the way she later does Tommen. She does not even seem bothered about what he did to the cat - which could also be a comment on Cersei's lack of empathy for animals or people who are not useful to her.

Completely agree about Cersei and Joffrey

I wonder if Medea's appeal as a character is the violence of her actions; she does not accept misfortune with dignity, she sacrifices her children in vengeance.

I think Medea's appeal as a character, is her action. The fact that she does actually do something, rather than "accept misfortune with dignity." I think I've mentioned each time that I've posted about her that nothing excuses her murder, so I'm going to stop saying that from now on, it's getting tedious. But her active role is why Medea will always be more heavily studied and discussed than The Trojan Women. (I agree it's incredibly sad, just not that interesting)

[Raksha the Demon]

It could well be that Medea, as a character and a play, is more heavily studied and discussed than the characters and play of the Trojan Women - but the latter play breaks my heart, affects me like a slow punch to the gut, far more than Medea does. I recoil from Medea; I empathize (despite my lack of misfortune) and sorrow for/with the Trojan Women. I don't think I necessarily champion violence over dignity in the face of misfortune, or dignified acceptance of misfortune over violent rebellion - for me, it really depends on the various characters and the situations and what the women can and can't realistically (or at least semi-realistically) do. But to me, Medea took the easier, weaker way out of her dilemma; it would have taken more strength to be a good mother to the children whose father had treated her so badly; she showed weakness in killing the children, not strength or courage. I do find The Trojan Women interesting; for me the appeal is in how do people survive a horrible situation where things go from bad to worse; do they fall down and weep, do they curse the gods, how do they interact with their tormentors and captors; how can they retain something that keeps them going?

I like the two versions of Antigone (the original, I'm not sure it was Euripides) and the far more modern one by Jean Anouilh, although at times I agree with Creon in that I want Antigone to be marry her betrothed (who she loves) and accept Creon's decree; I can't help but think she's a pistol of a character and admire her immensely, although I wouldn't be as brave as she is. But Antigone wasn't a mother, so I am digressing.

I'm trying to think of a fictional or legendary kickass mother - well, there was Boadicea (I'm probably mangling her name); who was a real woman who fought the male Roman conquerors who had shamed her and her daughters. Coming up blank on others, there must be lots...my brain is tired. Oh wait, there's two French-born queens of England that come to mind; Marguerite d'Anjou (who might well be an inspiration for Cersei Lannister), married to Henry VI, who fought tirelessly to reclaim Henry's throne for her son (who might not have been Henry's) during the War of the Roses. And Margaret Beaufort, a widowed mother at the age of 13, who fought in her own way, through politics/intrigue and marrying the right men, to help her only child, Henry Tudor, future Henry VII. And Isabelle, the so-called She-Wolf of France, unhappily married to Edward II of England (who was gay, or bi-sexual, and might have done better not to marry at all), who allowed his favorites to humiliate Isabelle; until Isabelle took off back to France with her lover Roger Mortimer and started up a rebellion and eventually deposed Edward and put their young son Edward III on the throne. I'm not in favor of the assassination of Edward II; but Isabelle was certainly not content to suffer in silence, and she never endangered her children...

[Angalin]

But to me, Medea took the easier, weaker way out of her dilemma; it would have taken more strength to be a good mother to the children whose father had treated her so badly; she showed weakness in killing the children, not strength or courage.

It's the classic divorce question: do you hate your ex more than you love your children? Apply that to Cersei, who hates her husband (whom she cannot divorce) so much that she refuses to bear his children.

I think Catelyn is a very good mother, actually, put into desperately hard positions. Cersei's children are an expression of what little power she has, because in her case status does not equal power. As for all those women who died in childbirth as a result of which their children never knew them: well, that sort of thing happened a lot. I don't think we can call that a "characterization" by GRRM, except of primitive medical care.

I'm trying to think of a fictional or legendary kickass mother

Sarah Connor, but any serious discussion of her should go into the Entertainment forum (and there's probably a Terminator-related thread or two already). :)

[Raksha the Demon]

That's true, Sarah Conner is definitely a Kickass Mom! An outstanding heroine too...

I think Catelyn was a good mother to her own children; they turned out to be strong enough to cope with some horrendous changes in their lives. And I could have made the exact same mistakes that Catelyn did in ACOK/ASOS; I think she did the best that she could, under the pressure of making very difficult choices for her family's welfare.

I'm still very surprised that not even the name of the mother of Brandon, Ned, Lyanna and Benjen Stark is known, much less how she died, what sort of person she was, etc. Perhaps she died in giving birth to her youngest child (can't remember whether that was Lyanna or Benjen), which would explain why Ned doesn't seem to remember her.

[Zmeischa]

That to me is the part where the Medea myth fails, rather than Medea acting like a realistic woman in that situation (ie if a normal woman had magic) which would be to kill the husband... she murders her own children???

That is because that is a myth, not a story. All the subsequent attempts to retell this as a story use some kind of rationalisation, because the acts of Medea as they appear in the myth are not the acts of a real person, and so psychologically inconsistent.

For example Jaime and Cersei can be seen as mythological twins, with all the implications (they are Apollo and Artemis, and Cat becomes Niobe... and ad infinitum), but they are still real, and their motives are those of human beings, not those of gods or demi-gods. But they are parts of the myths all the same :). It is weird.

I'm still very surprised that not even the name of the mother of Brandon, Ned, Lyanna and Benjen Stark is known, much less how she died, what sort of person she was, etc. Perhaps she died in giving birth to her youngest child (can't remember whether that was Lyanna or Benjen), which would explain why Ned doesn't seem to remember her.

I think that the not-mentioning of her name is not significant - she wass his mother, people as a rule don't call and remember their parents by their given names. Sam Tarly calls his sisters just "sisters", that is strange :).

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

I can't remember Ned recalling his mother in any form or fashion, let alone by name. It's like she never existed. When did she die, how, where was she buried? Her absence might mean she's just insignificant to the story, but the absence is so thorough, it makes me think she's might actually be very important.

[voodooqueen126]

I can't remember Ned recalling his mother in any form or fashion, let alone by name. It's like she never existed. When did she die, how, where was she buried? Her absence might mean she's just insignificant to the story, but the absence is so thorough, it makes me think she's might actually be very important.

So the wonderful and honourable Ned had an absent mother who he never thinks about or remembers.

[Woman of War]

What about Chella daughter of Idontknow? Several children and a fighter without mercy! Not the typical westerosi mom though, but let's not be culturally racist and forget her.

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

@ woman of war

Haha, you're so right. Chella is a woman (and a mother) isn't she? I think i forget this because i speed-read through the parts where she was first introduced and since then her gender-specific attributes haven't come up much.

[LadyOlennaTyrell]

^ In fairness, we don't know how good many of those "absentee" mothers there actually were, since several of them are dead. Similarly, those lacking a personality, we couldn't say.

That's my point : if there are good mothers in Westeros, that's the one we don't know. That I think is relevant.

When I mention some "absentee" mothers, I imply mothers that had no impact on their children's life (sorry english isn't my first language). I you draw a comparison between Tywin (taking the same example as you) and Joanna, though uncaring, Tywin had an deep impact on his children's life, Joanna had'nt (you can object that she died pretty early in her children's life, but still I can't remember her ever mentioned by Cersei or Jamie).

You're completely right about Alayne Baelish, my mistake. But we just know her name, while we know a little more about who Littlefinger's father was.

As for Catelyn, I think there's a dramaturgic conflict between her characterization as a good mother (I agree with you) and the plot driving her to leave Winterfell, thus the two children who needed her most (as Robb pointed out).

[Evamitchelle]

That's my point : if there are good mothers in Westeros, that's the one we don't know. That I think is relevant.

When I mention some "absentee" mothers, I imply mothers that had no impact on their children's life (sorry english isn't my first language). I you draw a comparison between Tywin (taking the same example as you) and Joanna, though uncaring, Tywin had an deep impact on his children's life, Joanna had'nt (you can object that she died pretty early in her children's life, but still I can't remember her ever mentioned by Cersei or Jamie).

You're completely right about Alayne Baelish, my mistake. But we just know her name, while we know a little more about who Littlefinger's father was.

As for Catelyn, I think there's a dramaturgic conflict between her characterization as a good mother (I agree with you) and the plot driving her to leave Winterfell, thus the two children who needed her most (as Robb pointed out).

I think Cersei and Jaime mention Joanna a few times in the series (isn't it Joanna that Jaime dreams about in AFFC ?) but it's true that she died pretty early on in their lives and didn't have the chance to make much of an impact on her children's lives (though you could say that her death had a profound impact on Tyrion's relationship with his dad).

[Ran]

Just to join the chorus, Catelyn is very obviously a good mother; believing otherwise generally requires one of two things. First, obsessing over her "leaving her babies defenseless" -- I've seen it, it's always extraordinarily overblown. Too much weight is given to the notion that a mother's place must be beside her wee bairns. Bran and Rickon had great castle walls and many guards and so on to keep them safe, and the only reason they were put in harm's way was not because of Catelyn (what in the world would have changed if Catelyn had been in Winterfell in ACoK? Except maybe that Theon might have forced her to marry him, I suppose) but because of Robb not listening to Catelyn. Whereas Catelyn's presence was necessary for Robb to secure the Frey alliance (an alliance which he lost, not Catelyn), which was pivotal to his early victories, which were more important to the long-term survival of the whole family.

Or, it takes a fairly jaundiced reading of her actions to take the fact that tragedy dogs her foot steps that it's always somehow her fault, when the first three novels make clear that she and her family were on a precipice no matter what any of them did, because they're moral/righteous enough to attempt to do the things they believe are right, inevitably putting them in conflict with those who care more about power than they do right.

To the broader question of motherhood in the series, I think there's something to be said for the narrative being concerned about good and bad parenting, and we see this on both sides of the gender equation. Bad mothers tend not to be absent mothers, but instead seem to be all-too-present in the lives of their children, which I think one can easily read as a critique of the particular manner in which this backwards society (by our standards) gives few women any outlets for expression and influence other than through their children, and those who most need these outlets for self-actualization or influence become a corrupting influence because it's simply not enough -- nor should it be enough -- for them.

Bad fathers tend to be more absentee than not, on the other hand; even Lord Tywin was more of an _idea_ in the lives of his children, and their relatively few meetings with him (remember, he was Hand of the King for much of their life, and it seems clear they were largely raised at Casterly Rock) must have been like meeting a god who on occasion swooped down from the heavens to interrogate and judge them.

[nanother]

I don't recall anyone in the thread arguing that Cat was a bad mother - but even in her case the maternal instinct is can be seen as something that clouds her judgement and drives her mad in the end. The major decisions she made driven by this protective instinct seem to be not very well thought-out, and then not only does she go mad, but is resurrected as vengeful zombie - it's all plausible considering what she went through (well, not the resurrection), and doesn't make her a bad/weak person, but that's not the point either: the point is that GRRM chose to portray her this way for whatever reason. She's the only functional mother portrayed in detail, and even she turns into something sick and sinister in the end.

[Chalais]

I can't remember Ned recalling his mother in any form or fashion, let alone by name. It's like she never existed. When did she die, how, where was she buried? Her absence might mean she's just insignificant to the story, but the absence is so thorough, it makes me think she's might actually be very important.

Actually my theory on the matter is that Neds mother either died giving birth to him or died soon after, so Ned wouldn't have a concept of his mother to think about, and of Lord Rickon's three sons, only Ned was fostered off to another nobleman, Jon Arryn.

Perhaps it was because Neds father blamed him at some level for the death of his wife, like Tywin but not as extreme.