He's not dead

[Black Crow]

The Ice Dragon was originally written over the winter of 1978-79 and has recently been republished in volume one of his anthology Dream Songs. Other than the fact it obviously isn't illustrated I don't know if it was altered when it became a children's story. I'd be very surprised though if the basic story and the relationship between Adara and the dragon changed.

[Ghost714]

The Ice Dragon was originally written over the winter of 1978-79 and has recently been republished in volume one of his anthology Dream Songs. Other than the fact it obviously isn't illustrated I don't know if it was altered when it became a children's story. I'd be very surprised though if the basic story and the relationship between Adara and the dragon changed.

So where can we find the original version? Or how can we read it?

[Val the Wildling Princess]

The Ice Dragon was originally written over the winter of 1978-79 and has recently been republished in volume one of his anthology Dream Songs. Other than the fact it obviously isn't illustrated I don't know if it was altered when it became a children's story. I'd be very surprised though if the basic story and the relationship between Adara and the dragon changed.

Ok, thank you! :)

[Ladywhiskers]

Not as improbable as it may at first appear... After all the Ice Dragon comes to rescue Adara, bringing a cold so intense that it freezes a stream and covers everything around it in hoar frost. :cool4:

Maybe that's our ice miracle--maybe Jon never feels the 4th dagger, only the cold, because the ice dragon comes to carry him away.

[Lady Octarina]

Maybe that's our ice miracle--maybe Jon never feels the 4th dagger, only the cold, because the ice dragon comes to carry him away.

Nah, that would be too deus ex machina for Martin. If the ice dragon joins Jon at any point, I don't thin it would be now...

[kephv]

So where can we find the original version? Or how can we read it?

The original version was published in 1980 in an anthology called Dragons of Light.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:D58namgDawsJ:www.univeros.com/usenet/cache/alt.binaries.ebooks/10.000.SciFi.and.Fantasy.Ebooks/George%2520R.%2520R.%2520Martin/George%2520R.%2520R.%2520Martin%2520-%2520Ice%2520Dragon.pdf+adara+the+ice+dragon&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjOtz7OX0bLIkSHAJpN9FJrElPAoruKl9Uz3UKpxqCCR2lYQ61rVqjgYAxlsvqvVfG840yN2zW0Gp1DM0uJQlONkNerf6KXe2yZV0NSpDJjDAQzZgTg8t9zMsghQGktL9uVOLtR&sig=AHIEtbTLkKPvz1rwLuvkuiSfDGgphYMcoQ

I found this on google docs. I have no idea if it's just a long preview or the first few chapters or what, but it's definitely the original unedited ver.

Yeah, and I doubt there'll be ice dragons showing up. There's definitely something up with the "cold" though. I mean, Mel mentioned it, and it's specifically pointed out that he had the ice cells cleared... I'd say there's going to be some special ice event, same way Daenerys had her fire one.

[Light a wight tonight]

What are your thoughts about what Wick did when he for the second time goes for Jon? Jon catches his wrist and Wick drops the dagger.

"The gangling steward backed away, his hands upraised as if to say, Not me, it was not me."

Very strange ...

This is what I picked up on. Wick and the others were under someone else's control at that point. Maybe one at a time. We will find out who that was in the future, no doubt. I wouldn't put it past Melisandre to have had a finger in this, as a way to realize her prediction of knives in the dark. Maybe a non-fatal attack to get Jon obligated to her for a cure or some such. Who knows, she may finally waking up to Stannis not being AA.

[Ghost714]

This is what I picked up on. Wick and the others were under someone else's control at that point. Maybe one at a time. We will find out who that was in the future, no doubt. I wouldn't put it past Melisandre to have had a finger in this, as a way to realize her prediction of knives in the dark. Maybe a non-fatal attack to get Jon obligated to her for a cure or some such. Who knows, she may finally waking up to Stannis not being AA.

I also had that same thought(and I also think Mel is starting to see that Jon is AA, not Stannis), no matter what, there are defenetly some "fishy" things going on, in regards to Jon's stabbing. It is not as cut and dry, as it looks. Something is up for sure. There are just so many angles, I can not put my finger on it exactly. Of course I believe there are some educated theory's on what's going on, but I'm not sure which way to go on this.

All these things could be signs of something more going on. Something just isn't right about these things below,

• Ghost is acting weird.

• The attackers seem "off".

• Jon can't get his sword unsheathed, his hands were stiff and clumsy.

• Jon drops to his knees, like one second after getting stabbed. Surely adrenaline would have kept him on his feet for a while right?

• Jon never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold...

• The ice cells were just dug out.

• The bodies in the ice sells were just in Jon's thoughts, right befor Jon gets stabbed.

• Melisandra walks away from the Sheild hall, right before Jon gets stabbed(most likely knowing Jon was about to get stabbed)

I'm sure I'm missing some stuff,( please add what I failed to mention) but all these things could be signs of something "more" happening, then just Jon getting stabbed by a few angry brothers.

[Black Crow]

Maybe that's our ice miracle--maybe Jon never feels the 4th dagger, only the cold, because the ice dragon comes to carry him away.

I was just quoting a precedent in GRRM's work. If the cold is significant a rescue is more likely to be the White Walkers than a dragon.

[Black Crow]

So where can we find the original version? Or how can we read it?

As I said, its just been republished as part of Dreamsongs Vol.1

[Winterfelon]

Nah, we've been through this one before in various forms - the chapter is a Jon POV which means its John who sees, hears and feels what happens, not somebody who looks like him magically or otherwise.

Do you perchance have linky or can summarise, kind sir? :)

I'd love to put this one to bed 'cos at the moment I just can't quite do it! :P

[Light a wight tonight]

I'm beginning to think one of the corpsicles was animated with Jon's mind (warging a deader? Westerosi dybbuk?) and given his semblance by Melisandre. The fourth knife wasn't felt because Jon had abandoned the body by then.

This is working with stuff that's on-hand, not bringing in a dragon from another story.

[Dream Hawk]

3. If the wretched chapter is real, Borroq, the wildling warg that called Jon "Brother", will immediately go to Ghost's side because he instinctively knows that Jon will be inside of direwolf. He will keep the wolf safe and alive until Melisandre figures out how to give Jon the Rhllor kiss of life.

I think you're right and I also have a little bit to add on, sorry if I'm repeating something that's already been said

Just before Jon dies(?) he whispers "Ghost", I'm guessing he warged into Ghost then, and that's why he "never felt the fourth knife".

Mellisandre told him that she saw it in the fires, knives all around him and then he kept changing into a wolf and back again (or something along those lines) So that could mean he dies and wargs into Ghost but then he returns to his body? Maybe Mellisandre pulls a Beric?

Earlier that day as well, Mellisandre asks him where Ghost is, I'm guessing that because Jon wouldn't heed her warnings of the knives, she was making sure Ghost wasn't near Jon when he was killed so that no harm could come to Ghost and therefore she could restore his soul to his body.

OR

Just throwing this out there but i think Bran has been watching over Jon aswell (see point 1 below) and maybe he has the power to save him (point 2)

1. Bran can see through the eyes of the Weirwoods and Ravens. When Theon is praying in the Godswood of Winterfell, the heart tree whispers his name, who else could it be if not Bran? Which brings me to my point of Bran watching Jon. There's a scene in ADWD when Mormont's raven is muttering "corn, snow" and then he abrubtly says "Jon Snow, Jon Snow" and Jon remarks that it was "queer" because the raven had never used his full name before. That's why I think the raven was Bran. (or else I'm reading too much into it :P)

2. Mellisandre talks of two gods; R'hollor who brings light and the Other god who must not be named, who lives in darkness. She sees a man with a white wooden face beside a boy with a wolf head in her fires and she thinks they are the champions of the Other god, as Stannis is hers. The wooden man and the wolf head boy are obviously Bran and Bloodraven and there is a scene where Bloodraven tells Bran not to fear the dark because darkness is their friend. So if they are the champions, or maybe even the, Other god, they could play a part in Jon's ressurection(?)

Just a theory :P

[Black Crow]

Do you perchance have linky or can summarise, kind sir? :)

I'd love to put this one to bed 'cos at the moment I just can't quite do it! :P

Go to the start this thread; posts #36, 44-46 in particular. As I said this is something which has been thoroughly worked over ever since ADwD was published. The chapter is Jon's POV; its all about what he sees, says, thinks and feels, not what others think is happening to him. He and nobody else is going down with those knife wounds.

[FanTasy]

Go to the start this thread; posts #36, 44-46 in particular. As I said this is something which has been thoroughly worked over ever since ADwD was published. The chapter is Jon's POV; its all about what he sees, says, thinks and feels, not what others think is happening to him. He and nobody else is going down with those knife wounds.

I agree, it is his POV. The last chapter of Jon in ADWD is extremely thought-based (for lack of a better description).

I think it could fit in the chosen form if we read the feelings of a p.o.v.-chapter while he is temporarily not in his own body. In fact we have seen this described before, in the wolf dreams.

So the person who others see as Jon could be glamoured to look like him while being controlled by Jon. A shell, looking like Jon. And the real mind in the skin is somewhere in there too, crouched in a corner like Hodor does when Bran takes over.

When we read about what Jon feels while being in the shell, moving the shell, these are still feelings and actions Jon would see as his feelings and actions.

But I think the most simple explanation is often the best: WYSIWYG, Jon is Jon.

He is cut and stabbed, wounded.

We have seen people die from scratches in AASOIAF but we have also seen people seeming terribly wounded but not dangerously hurt.

First about the cut to the throat. Is it coincidence that a few chapters before what happens to Jon we read about another cut to the throat that was not deadly? Manderley at Winterfell ...

Then the stabbing in the back and in the belly. It depends on how deep the knives went, if they went through all those layers of clothing and if there was penetration of vital organs or vessels.

No. Jon is not dead, I think. His arc in this story is not dead

And I don't think Jon could fulfill what could be his storyline when residing in a direwolve or being recycled as a wight or Gregan Karstark- and I certainly don't like the idea of Jon's own dead body being 'healed' from death for further inhabitation by a temporarily absent Jon.

[Buried Treasure]

Manderly has multiple false chins, so even a fairly deep cut will be going mostly though fat. A wound deep enough to bleed heavily will not necessarily be deep enough to cut the major blood vessels.

Jon is fit and carries much less fat, so his major blood vessels are a lot more exposed. That wound alone may not have been deep enough to kill him, but it was deep enough to bleed. The seeming discrepency with Jon thinking the dagger missed him may be explained by a line in the very next chapter, when Barristan thinks that sometimes with deep wounds the blood comes before the pain.

I think it was right after this first wound that Jon was unable to reach for his sword? If the numbness in his hand wasn't caused just by shock then perhaps the cut was on the right side of his neck and caused partial paralysis of his right arm? When he pulled the dagger out of his belly it may have been with his one working hand.

The knives must have penetrated through his clothing. If cloth has stopped knives the effect on Jon would be like he was getting a beating and he would not have passed out from the pain so quickly. The fact that he got stabbed in the belly suggests that if even had he not died immediately (as I believe) he would have been badly enough injured that Westerosi-level madicine could not heal him. Mel is on the Wall, and she presumably knows healing magic but I think his wounds were severe enough that she was unable to reach him in time.

Normally I am firmly in the camp of 'he/she didn't really die' as, excluding the wights beyond the Wall, there has only been one case of resurrection in the series. That was the Beric/ Catelyn cycle of rebirths and I now believe the purpose of that part of the story was to prepare the reader for Jon having a plot-essential death and resurrection. Otherwise the means for Jon's resurrection would come out of nowhere in the final act. I mean, people are still going to cry 'Deus ex machina' when he is resurrected from the dead, but at least it will have been foeshadowed in the second book.

[jvvst3]

I think you are right that Jon is probably going to have to be resurrected. Stab wounds to the stomach can be especially fatal because the ruptured organs in that area would need to be operated on, which is probably beyond the extent of medical treatment available on the wall. Also, if John’s intestines has been ruptured in anyway, the probability of infection increases dramatically and make recovery that much more difficult.

[Black Crow]

"Cold preserves" Aemon Targaryen

[jvvst3]

"Cold preserves" Aemon Targaryen

Yeah, cold preserves the body, the soul/being is preserved...in Ghost I guess.

[The Owl]

Just finished aDWD... and I am in agreement with alot here, in doubting that JS is dead... just in the way the chapter was written... When GRRM kills of characters, he KILLS them, no questions... how many of the "cliff hanger deaths" have actually resulted in the death of the character? Davos at the Blackwater... Brieanne being hanged... Tyrion falling into the river...etc It makes for good cliffhangers, but I cant think of 1 character who did not survive his/her "cliff hanger death"