He's not dead

[Ghost714]

Jon is not dead. He "died" soon after the viewing of the red witch, and he is dwelling on that. It's quite clear, that the strenght of his ability as a war is second only to that of Bran. Bran is a greenSeer, and in all likelyhood so is Jon, since Jon, in my opinion, is clearlly also of Targaryen blood.

So Jon was having a VIEWING, not an experience, since it was offered in the first person. Toss in the trepidation of Jon before the assasination happened, Jon is not suck a fool.

I'm of the "Bobby" from whatchimakalit school of opinion.

MAYBE Jon, had been "struck" (doubt it,Tarley working his way through the citadel.) but he might have just been removed from CAPACITY, allowing for a new/interrim guardian of the realm, and then return whole, I mean really, we ARE looking at about AT LEAST a 3 or 4 year gap in the timelines here, what with travel, unless everyone finds dragons eggs and learns how to ride them.

I think it was a "green Dream." a skill strong in the starks, and born of fire, and since I think Jon is both a Stark, and a Targaryen. It was a premonition.

Lol I think I really like what your saying here, but I'm not sure I understand you 100%. Do you think you could explain your post again?

And are you saying Jon's whole stabbing scene, was a greendream? And if so do you mean that whole chapter? Or just the actual stabbing part?

[Lord of Cheese]

That would be cheap... "blah blah... but it was all just a dream..." lol. I think not.

[Winterfelon]

Entertaining thread! :)

For me, it's a question of how and when Jon 'comes back' rather than 'if', and most of what I've read here is at least plausible .

I do, though have a problem with the 'skinchange to ghost, body heals Jon comes back when it's ready' theory though.

And it is this:

It's a proper (if ill-planned/rushed) assassination attempt. Are we to believe they stop after the fourth blade so he's not too beat up and shove him in an ice locker so he can get better?

There are far too many people around with grievances for that to happen and Mel on her own doesn't have the muscle to get Jon's body and keep and hide it.

In Martin's world, it's surely far more likely the assassins make sure he can't come back either with 'Ice' or with fire (sorry) and put his body beyond function. Particulalry the Slynt crew who'd seek retribution in kind.

This, obviously, presents a problem for Jon to pop into a little coma then come back into his nicely healed body (no doubt with added cool flecks of grey hair :P).

So...if that were true - we'd have a spirit Jon with no body, thus th eonly option for Jon to come back in a recogniseable form would be for him to skinchange then come back into another body, which Mel then glamours to look like the original Jon...

Perhaps...

[Arya Targaryen]

In Martin's world, it's surely far more likely the assassins make sure he can't come back either with 'Ice' or with fire (sorry) and put his body beyond function. Particulalry the Slynt crew who'd seek retribution in kind.

At the Wall people are certainly afraid of wight-like resurrection, but know nothig of the fire-resurrection. And they know they have to burn the body to prevent the body rising.

So my guess is that either they forget about the body for a while in the upcoming mess, and toss it into an ice-cell, and the Wall heals him, or they burn him, which sucks.

Oh wait - with all the magic and king's blood (Targ heritage) around he may not burn.

I don't support the Jon's soul into a different body idea, because I think it will become important that he has Rhaegar's blood and Stark blood as well. He would lose it in a different body.

[Winterfelon]

At the Wall people are certainly afraid of wight-like resurrection, but know nothig of the fire-resurrection. And they know they have to burn the body to prevent the body rising.

So my guess is that either they forget about the body for a while in the upcoming mess, and toss it into an ice-cell, and the Wall heals him, or they burn him, which sucks.

Oh wait - with all the magic and king's blood (Targ heritage) around he may not burn.

I don't support the Jon's soul into a different body idea, because I think it will become important that he has Rhaegar's blood and Stark blood as well. He would lose it in a different body.

Well that's just it - how likely is it they'd just forget about him and how on earth would that come off in the text? :D

'Uhh yeah, so we got him!'

'Cool - just chuck him in the cellar so we can give him a good send off when there's time'

'But he's a w..'

'Whatever, I'm pooped and need to eat'

:P

But yeah, what you say about blood is key, I think - and I agree I would prefer it muchly if Jon just 'survives'.

However IF Jon really is of ice and fire then it's totally plausible that during a (funeral) pyre situation he reacts...untypically - a la Dany. I just think the amount of time that might need to pass problematic for him going back to his old body, given that if he does skinchange, the human self is eventually lost...

Personally I think there's magic at play with the sudden irretrievability of his sword and the 'raised it wasn't me hands' is the red herring - which as has been said is actually a totally human reaction.

Have to say I'm kind of stumped because there's a lot of very well-argued points here, but I would proffer that it's possible that - if not directly rigged - that actually the whole event has been manipulated by Jon, Thormund and Mel to give the impression of Jon's death.

[Black Crow]

In Martin's world, it's surely far more likely the assassins make sure he can't come back either with 'Ice' or with fire (sorry) and put his body beyond function. Particulalry the Slynt crew who'd seek retribution in kind.

Cutting his head off could be a problem :cool4:

[Lady of Long Lake]

That would be cheap... "blah blah... but it was all just a dream..." lol. I think not.

Well, what if it was a dream induced by the Pale Mare virus?

That virus is rampant in Essos. The slaver ships leave Essos and go to HardHome to steal wildling women and children to sell. The virus would have been brought North with those grubby slavers. Cotter Pyke goes to HardHome, comes in contact with flu victims and sends Jon a "SOS" letter. Jon touches the letter and catches the flu. The chapter right before the gank squad chapter was him reading that letter.

That's my latest "Please God He Can't Be Dead" theory.

[Winterfelon]

Cutting his head off could be a problem :cool4:

Exactly! :D

Like father like 'son' and all that... :P

So...to let that play out...

For whatever reason Jon's body can't be stored or is rendered nonfunctional.

For Jon to come back whole, then the only possible explanation is the pre-assassination glamour, but I gather there are problems with that theory?

[FanTasy]

For Jon to come back whole, then the only possible explanation is the pre-assassination glamour, but I gather there are problems with that theory?

Yes, there are :frown5: It's my pet theorette, though, and saves me from despair until the next book appears, so I'm gonna stick with it.

Skinchanging into Ghost or the deepfrozen wights ... nah.

That made me think there is someone alive and around who ressembles Jon a bit, even has Stark blood - Cregan Karstark, the Frozen Dung Thrower.

[Winterfelon]

Yes, there are :frown5: It's my pet theorette, though, and saves me from despair until the next book appears, so I'm gonna stick with it.

Skinchanging into Ghost or the deepfrozen wights ... nah.

That made me think there is someone alive and around who ressembles Jon a bit, even has Stark blood - Cregan Karstark, the Frozen Dung Thrower.

Hehe - to be honest, I like this theory as well, but I do see that Jon's warging/sc skills aren't quite up to Bran level.

[Ladywhiskers]

Entertaining thread! :)

For me, it's a question of how and when Jon 'comes back' rather than 'if', and most of what I've read here is at least plausible .

I do, though have a problem with the 'skinchange to ghost, body heals Jon comes back when it's ready' theory though.

And it is this:

It's a proper (if ill-planned/rushed) assassination attempt. Are we to believe they stop after the fourth blade so he's not too beat up and shove him in an ice locker so he can get better?

There are far too many people around with grievances for that to happen and Mel on her own doesn't have the muscle to get Jon's body and keep and hide it.

In Martin's world, it's surely far more likely the assassins make sure he can't come back either with 'Ice' or with fire (sorry) and put his body beyond function. Particulalry the Slynt crew who'd seek retribution in kind.

This, obviously, presents a problem for Jon to pop into a little coma then come back into his nicely healed body (no doubt with added cool flecks of grey hair :P).

So...if that were true - we'd have a spirit Jon with no body, thus th eonly option for Jon to come back in a recogniseable form would be for him to skinchange then come back into another body, which Mel then glamours to look like the original Jon...

Perhaps...

But that overlooks the wildlings and the queen's men, both of whom will probably intervene in a minute.

I can't remember--are they at the top, or the bottom of the wall when this is happening? At this point I'm starting to think that either the wall collapsed and buried them all, or they threw Jon Snow off of the wall.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

But that overlooks the wildlings and the queen's men, both of whom will probably intervene in a minute.

I can't remember--are they at the top, or the bottom of the wall when this is happening? At this point I'm starting to think that either the wall collapsed and buried them all, or they threw Jon Snow off of the wall.

I think they are at the bottom since Wun Wun was guarding the Tower of Hardin and they all ran there when they heard that dumb ser Patrek scream :rolleyes:

[Black Crow]

Yes, there are :frown5: It's my pet theorette, though, and saves me from despair until the next book appears, so I'm gonna stick with it.

Skinchanging into Ghost or the deepfrozen wights ... nah.

Coming back as a White Walker on the other hand could be interesting :cool4:

[Val the Wildling Princess]

Coming back as a White Walker on the other hand could be interesting :cool4:

I wouldn't mind if he comes back a la Coldhands, to be honest :D

[Arya Targaryen]

Well, it could be interesting, if he didn't die, but stays in coma for a long time, until the magic in the Wall heals him. Meanwhile, he can warg here and there - since his original body is alive! - eg into a dead body a la Coldhands. That body cannot die again, does not need to eat or sleep, so he can go and have a closer look at the Others, or even find the Children and Bran. And its totally safe - should he burn, he can still warg out into Ghost or back in his - slowly healed - body.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

For Jon to come back whole, then the only possible explanation is the pre-assassination glamour, but I gather there are problems with that theory?

Theoretically, he could warg into Ghost, "hold onto" his consciousness (which Beric and Cat were unable to do, not being wargs), and warg back into his own body that Melisandre has either healed or resurrected. In that case, he wouldn't be too worse for the wear and would still be "Jon."

[FanTasy]

Brr ... and Melisandres price for this First Aid Rescue will be that he must make shadowbabes with her. He won't last long :devil:

[davidjones2492]

Theoretically, he could warg into Ghost, "hold onto" his consciousness (which Beric and Cat were unable to do, not being wargs), and warg back into his own body that Melisandre has either healed or resurrected. In that case, he wouldn't be too worse for the wear and would still be "Jon."

I am fairly sure the prologue's explanation of what happens when a Warg dies was there to prepare us precisely for this. I think Jon will actually die and return, thus freeing him from his vows. Bringing a number of plot strands that have been building since book 3 into play:

The wildings love him.

Everybody in the North (except the Boltons) wants to follow a Stark. Jon couldn't be more Stark like if he renamed himself Ned.

Rob's will makes him King of the North and the loyal North lords will follow him.

He actively goes about repairing Robb's fractured alliances by building bridges with Karhold, with Arnolf Karstark dead early in the next book, this alliance will be key.

However even if Jon's "death" is not to free him from his vows to the watch, it is absolutely necessary that he is out of play for a time. Remember if the Others are to be viewed as an actual threat to the realm they have to get past the wall.

There can be no doubt that they're going to do this (surely book 6's title is a give away) and when they do the LC, or whoever is in charge of the wall at the time is unlikely to be viewed favourably as a leader. It would be hard (impossible) to make Jon to be LC at this point and to have him be taken seriously as a commander/general later. The assasination therefore kills two birds with one stone from a narrative perspective.

[FanTasy]

If Jon lives I think he becomes not King of the North but (or first) King beyond the Wall, meets up with Bran (Ghost could lead him to Summer, or Summer finds them). As King beyond the Wall, helped by Tormund, he could lead the remaining wildlings to the other side of the Wall (using the Black Gate at the Nightfort) or the tunnels Ygritte showed him so conveniently in ASOS. He then can attack whoever holds the Wall from the back.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

Brr ... and Melisandres price for this First Aid Rescue will be that he must make shadowbabes with her. He won't last long :devil:

This is my main problem with the theory everyone has of Melisandre getting Jon back. I don't trust her, I don't trust her at all. I want Jon back, for sure, but I'd rather have him back by some kind of ice magic if such thing even exists -_-