He's not dead

[Ladywhiskers]

At the Wall people are certainly afraid of wight-like resurrection, but know nothig of the fire-resurrection. And they know they have to burn the body to prevent the body rising. So my guess is that either they forget about the body for a while in the upcoming mess, and toss it into an ice-cell, and the Wall heals him, or they burn him, which sucks. Oh wait - with all the magic and king's blood (Targ heritage) around he may not burn. I don't support the Jon's soul into a different body idea, because I think it will become important that he has Rhaegar's blood and Stark blood as well. He would lose it in a different body.

Good point. That's my problem with the "different body" theory as well.

If they decide to burn the remains to dispose of them, doesn't that give Mel the perfect opportunity to pull a switch and resurrect him? It will take time to build a pyre, so of course they'd put him in storage with the other corpses. I agree they might actually put him in an ice cell, which would give him the time to heal.

With his consciousness stored in Ghost meanwhile, (which is where it's been automatically going whenever he's asleep anyway,) he'd be assured of coming back without losing any of it, once his body has healed. And we are due an Ice miracle to complement the Fire miracle. Since the rushed assasination attempt takes place in full view of wildlings, queen's men, and who knows who else, I don't think they'll have the opportunity to decapitate him. (Although decapitation doesn't seem to really be slowing Gregor Clegane down much.)

Wun-Wun, Mel, the crowd of wildlings, and the Queen's men will interfere before it comes to that.

The thing that has me most worried, frankly, is, what's to stop someone going into the room where Ghost was locked up, and killing him? I know Mel has some sort of foreknowledge of this incident, because she mentioned knives in the dark, and the need to "keep your wolf close." I'm hoping she has taken the opportunity to move Ghost to a different room, at least, if not free him outright.

[Ghost714]

Entertaining thread! :)

For me, it's a question of how and when Jon 'comes back' rather than 'if', and most of what I've read here is at least plausible .

I do, though have a problem with the 'skinchange to ghost, body heals Jon comes back when it's ready' theory though.

And it is this:

It's a proper (if ill-planned/rushed) assassination attempt. Are we to believe they stop after the fourth blade so he's not too beat up and shove him in an ice locker so he can get better?

There are far too many people around with grievances for that to happen and Mel on her own doesn't have the muscle to get Jon's body and keep and hide it.

I understand what your saying, when you say, "are we to believe they stopped after the fourth blade". But what I think your forgetting is, Jon had two body guards with him, and Leathers is right there. So they could have jumped in to stop any further stabbing. Also you point out that there are a lot of people who want Jon dead, and you said Mel alone doesn't have the muscle to get Jon and save him. But it's not just Mel, there are men of the NW that are still loyal to Jon, and not to mention all the Wildlings in the Sheild Hall that just pledged to fight for Jon. So I believe that there could have been an intervention to stop Jon from getting stabbed more. Also the way it is written is,... "Jon never felt the fourth knife, only the cold".... If there had been more than four knives, then I believe it would have said....Jon never felt the tenth knife, only the cold.

So in short, I believe Jon will simply survive his wounds, with or without magic involved.

[FanTasy]

Or ... as Black Crow suggests if I read him correctly, the cold wind Jon feels rising means that wights and / or white walkers are joining the dagger party. Remember Jon immediately becausefore he is stabbed thinks that he must have a horn? Arooooooo .... aroooooo ....twice for wildlings attacking ... arooooooo .... Others.

[Winterfelon]

Good points, all.

Good point. That's my problem with the "different body" theory as well.

If they decide to burn the remains to dispose of them, doesn't that give Mel the perfect opportunity to pull a switch and resurrect him? It will take time to build a pyre, so of course they'd put him in storage with the other corpses. I agree they might actually put him in an ice cell, which would give him the time to heal.

With his consciousness stored in Ghost meanwhile, (which is where it's been automatically going whenever he's asleep anyway,) he'd be assured of coming back without losing any of it, once his body has healed. And we are due an Ice miracle to complement the Fire miracle. Since the rushed assasination attempt takes place in full view of wildlings, queen's men, and who knows who else, I don't think they'll have the opportunity to decapitate him. (Although decapitation doesn't seem to really be slowing Gregor Clegane down much.)

Wun-Wun, Mel, the crowd of wildlings, and the Queen's men will interfere before it comes to that.

The thing that has me most worried, frankly, is, what's to stop someone going into the room where Ghost was locked up, and killing him? I know Mel has some sort of foreknowledge of this incident, because she mentioned knives in the dark, and the need to "keep your wolf close." I'm hoping she has taken the opportunity to move Ghost to a different room, at least, if not free him outright.

Quite true. Don't get me wrong - Jon 'dying' then coming back in any of the ways mentioned makes a HUGE amount of narrative sense. Freeing him for his NW vows, free to be named a Stark and take back (at least) the North. Nice idea with the symmetry of the Fire and Ice miracle too.

It would make perfect sense if this were to be so. It would be awesome, also. :cool:

And that's the problem.

It's all so obvious that it can't be that simple, can it? GRRM almost without exception has pulled the rug out from under us with these big plot points, So even if it does happen it's surely more likely than not that there's a twist somehow!

He tends to have a way of spoiling these things!

So really, I think, our task is to find that fly in the ointment. :D

[Ghost Rider]

I don't support the Jon's soul into a different body idea, because I think it will become important that he has Rhaegar's blood and Stark blood as well. He would lose it in a different body.

Thank you for mentioning it! Personally I am totally grossed out by every theory out there that contains body switching. Imho these theories neglect that a person is not only mind, spirit. A person is body as well. The same mind, spirit in another body will be a different person. Consider what even changes to one's body do to people inside the story. Think of Bran losing his ability to walk, of Jaime losing his hand. The body of another person will feel strange, every action different. The other person may e.g. be more/less agile, more/less powerful. And while you adapt to that, mind/spirit will adapt too, meaning change! And that's not even considering what it does to one's identity to look into a mirror and an unfamiliar face is looking back at you.

Arya is currently in a situation like that, though not permanently, but for her it's a sign of losing herself and if she doesn't, it will be because she is able to hold on to her core, she still feels like Arya even though she doesn't look it. Meaning that even when her face appears carved in when she's the ugly girl, her face still has the same feel to her touch it ever had.

Besides - it's entirely unethical to take over the consciousness of another person, basically mind-rape. The person that is about to be warged won't agree to mind takeover as we have seen in the prologue with Thistle. Even Hodor resists Bran and he trusts Bran and is simpleminded. That's why it's not conceivable for me that Jon could warg another living person, even if he wanted to.

As for the dead: Afaik, we haven't read anywhere in the books that it is possible to warg dead bodies. I mean, what's the point? They're dead! Just like your own body, why not warg that then? It seems to me that we have to regard self-consciousness as a different force opposed to life energy here. While life energy leaves the body of the Warg, his consciousness still lives on in his animals as we have seen with Varamyr and Orell. The Wights are animated with some kind of energy, but deprived of self consciousness. That's why I guess it's possible that they could be wargable. But during the day they seem to be dead, only at night they are active. The bodies in the ice cells haven't shown any signs so far of being activated. They may be, but if they are activated at precise points, does that not point to direct strategical control of the Others? So I am not sure whether it would be possible or desirable to warg Wights.

I am fairly sure the prologue's explanation of what happens when a Warg dies was there to prepare us precisely for this.

I am not at all sure about this. It could just as well be directed at Bran's development, introducing us to the concepts of the (ethical) limits of warging, especially knowing that Bran has infringed upon every one of them. Concerning the death of a Warg, it only shows us that his human spirit lives on in his animal, but that it's fading/diminuishing with time.

I think Jon will actually die and return, thus freeing him from his vows.

Why would you want to give him the easy way out? :D Personally I think he will understand the true meaning of his vow and it demands that he takes on other responsibilities. Besides can there be any clearer indication that the NW wants to kick him out than an assassination attempt?

Good point. That's my problem with the "different body" theory as well.

:cheers:

If they decide to burn the remains to dispose of them, doesn't that give Mel the perfect opportunity to pull a switch and resurrect him? It will take time to build a pyre, so of course they'd put him in storage with the other corpses. I agree they might actually put him in an ice cell, which would give him the time to heal.

I don't understand. Do you think he's only injured, so that he can be healed or do you think he's dead, so that Mel must resurrect him?

And we are due an Ice miracle to complement the Fire miracle.

What's interesting about that comparison is that Dany didn't actually die. Instead she was able to withstand the element of fire.

Since the rushed assasination attempt takes place in full view of wildlings, queen's men, and who knows who else, I don't think they'll have the opportunity to decapitate him.

I agree! I also don't think decapitation is easy to do with daggers. :D If they had wanted to cut off Jon's head, they should have taken (very sharp) swords.

The thing that has me most worried, frankly, is, what's to stop someone going into the room where Ghost was locked up, and killing him? I know Mel has some sort of foreknowledge of this incident, because she mentioned knives in the dark, and the need to "keep your wolf close." I'm hoping she has taken the opportunity to move Ghost to a different room, at least, if not free him outright.

I think she left the Hall right before the incident to either bring in Ghost or take him to safety. She specifically asks Jon before his little speech where Ghost is. For the record: I think Jon's not dead and won't be resurrected by Mel. I don't think Jon is destined to be in league with Mel and her fire magic. That may be personal preference though since I don't want him to be indebted to her.

[Ghost Rider]

Or ... as Black Crow suggests if I read him correctly, the cold wind Jon feels rising means that wights and / or white walkers are joining the dagger party. Remember Jon immediately becausefore he is stabbed thinks that he must have a horn? Arooooooo .... aroooooo ....twice for wildlings attacking ... arooooooo .... Others.

Very interesting! I like that theory a lot. I was wondering why he was thinking of the horns and it makes sense that he felt Others coming. It would certainly make for dramatic effect. :D And a possible dramatic entry of the Others into the game.

Whenever I read of Jon describing the cold during that scene, I come back to Melisandres first warning to Jon when she tells him that she sees daggers in the dark and it was very cold. He replies "it's always cold on the Wall" and Mel's answer (You know nothing, Jon Snow!), even more conspicious because of the wording makes it clear that he didn't understand her meaning. I didn't have the feeling she was talking of the weather there!

[Morte]

Or ... as Black Crow suggests if I read him correctly, the cold wind Jon feels rising means that wights and / or white walkers are joining the dagger party. Remember Jon immediately becausefore he is stabbed thinks that he must have a horn? Arooooooo .... aroooooo ....twice for wildlings attacking ... arooooooo .... Others.

Also... if we asume that the christmas chapter would happen simultaneous or at least quite... didn't it also mentions on the (unnatural?) cold?

I somehow like that idea, so Jon's cold would not mean death for him, but shit hitting the fan for all people on the wall.

[JP Dayne]

i've had worse papercuts than his stabbings ffs

jon is good and alive, just some minor wounds

[Lady of Long Lake]

Good point. That's my problem with the "different body" theory as well.

If they decide to burn the remains to dispose of them, doesn't that give Mel the perfect opportunity to pull a switch and resurrect him? It will take time to build a pyre, so of course they'd put him in storage with the other corpses. I agree they might actually put him in an ice cell, which would give him the time to heal.

With his consciousness stored in Ghost meanwhile, (which is where it's been automatically going whenever he's asleep anyway,) he'd be assured of coming back without losing any of it, once his body has healed. And we are due an Ice miracle to complement the Fire miracle. Since the rushed assasination attempt takes place in full view of wildlings, queen's men, and who knows who else, I don't think they'll have the opportunity to decapitate him. (Although decapitation doesn't seem to really be slowing Gregor Clegane down much.)

Wun-Wun, Mel, the crowd of wildlings, and the Queen's men will interfere before it comes to that.

The thing that has me most worried, frankly, is, what's to stop someone going into the room where Ghost was locked up, and killing him? I know Mel has some sort of foreknowledge of this incident, because she mentioned knives in the dark, and the need to "keep your wolf close." I'm hoping she has taken the opportunity to move Ghost to a different room, at least, if not free him outright.

Borroq will know where Jon is, inside of Ghost. He's the powerful skinchanger that called Jon "Brother" as he came through the Wall. I pray he goes to Ghost immediately and protects him.

[Ghost714]

Or ... as Black Crow suggests if I read him correctly, the cold wind Jon feels rising means that wights and / or white walkers are joining the dagger party. Remember Jon immediately becausefore he is stabbed thinks that he must have a horn? Arooooooo .... aroooooo ....twice for wildlings attacking ... arooooooo .... Others.

Jon thinks about a horn, to get Wun Wun's attention, and to calm everyone down. Jon is yelling at Wun Wun, and Jon is yelling for Leathers to calm him down using the old tongue.

Jon thinks to himself, the old tongue he speaks the old tongue. Then he says a horn I need a horn. Jon wants to blow a horn to get everyone's attention so they listen to him to get back from Wun Wun because they were scaring him.

I really don't think the horn has anything to do with the Others.

[Autopath]

Maybe Jon's just flopping, like in soccer.

But no, I think he'll just survive his wounds and have a long, difficult recovery period. No magic needed, just good ole medieval medicine.

[The Kender]

I hope Jon survives his wounds too.

[jvvst3]

I think Jon is going to die (or is dead) and will come back as the leader of the Others. Since they as of yet have no identified leader and he is the mostly likely the Ice half of A Song of Ice and Fire, I think he could become their leader. It would be a sick twist on the part of Martin to make Jon an evil character but I like it.

[Ghost714]

I think Jon is going to die (or is dead) and will come back as the leader of the Others. Since they as of yet have no identified leader and he is the mostly likely the Ice half of A Song of Ice and Fire, I think he could become their leader. It would be a sick twist on the part of Martin to make Jon an evil character but I like it.

Jon isn't just the "ice half", Jon is the product of ice and fire.

I'm pretty sure the Others already have a "leader", they seem pretty damn orginized at this point, to not have a leader. If Jon were to die, what would make him come back as an Other, and not just a Weight? And why would the Others follow Jon, Jon would be a "newcomer", that knows nothing about the Others. So again why would they want Jon to lead them?

There is literally nothing in the text to support what your saying, and I am sure nothing would destroy GRRM's story faster, then making Jon the "Great Other".

Unlike a lot of people, I believe Melisandre is pretty damn competent at what she does. Even if she isn't though, I believe she would still see Jon in her flames, as the "Great Other", if that were the case.

In conclusion, there is no way in seven hells, that Jon becomes the "Great Other", Leader of the Others.

[Black Crow]

Or ... as Black Crow suggests if I read him correctly, the cold wind Jon feels rising means that wights and / or white walkers are joining the dagger party.

Not as improbable as it may at first appear... After all the Ice Dragon comes to rescue Adara, bringing a cold so intense that it freezes a stream and covers everything around it in hoar frost. :cool4:

[Ghost714]

Not as improbable as it may at first appear... After all the Ice Dragon comes to rescue Adara, bringing a cold so intense that it freezes a stream and covers everything around it in hoar frost. :cool4:

Huh? How did you go from talking about the Others coming, to an Ice Dragon?

And the text never said anything about cold winds rising, or anything like that, the text said,

"He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold. . ."

Considering its pretty damn cold at the Wall, no matter what, I don't think that line is indicative of the Others coming. It is possible, but that line could suggest a lot of different things, some of those different things seem more likely then the Others coming.

Saying Jon only felt the cold, that to me, is to vague to really mean the Others have come. Now had the text actually said....

He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold winds rising. . .

that would be more of a suggestion that the Others have come. Unfortunately that is not what the last line said.

[Black Crow]

You need to read GRRM's The Ice Dragon - the original one rather than the kids story he turned it into. :cool4:

You may still not agree afterwards, but at least you'll understand why...

[Seanathan]

_{Okay I know this is a reach but,}

_{What if this really isn't Jon}

_{Remember what Mel did with Rattleshirt and Manceby switching thier appearance, and I think I recall Ghost had growled at Jon just before he left and got stabbed}

[Black Crow]

Nah, we've been through this one before in various forms - the chapter is a Jon POV which means its John who sees, hears and feels what happens, not somebody who looks like him magically or otherwise.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

You need to read GRRM's The Ice Dragon - the original one rather than the kids story he turned it into. :cool4:

You may still not agree afterwards, but at least you'll understand why...

Wait, are there 2 versions of The ice dragon or? I have downloaded one on my e- reader but I haven't read it yet.